Overpayment Screw Up

[ZH875]

Lieutenant-General Sir David Richards, who takes over as chief of the general staff in August, expressed his concern that servicemen were pilfering and abusing the Army's joint personnel administration (JPA).

Bloody typical, since when has JPA belonged to the Army, IIRC the RAF had it thrown at them for a year whilst the Army learned to use a keyboard.

It must still be that anything Joint belongs to the Army.

[NickGooseBrady]

Sick with worry and frustration..

Having taken a career break back in April and using a different bank account to live off, I was rather suprised to find out in September that the RN had continued to pay me.

The thought of keeping my head down and hoping that nobody would notice was considered for a short while but in October I popped into the UPO and told them of the mistake.

No worries (I thought), I still have the money and so offered to repay the full amount that I had been overpaid. No problem I was told. I wrote a cheque for the full amount and went on my merry way.

Oh dear. One month later the idiots in JPAC are demanding that I repay the full GROSS amount!!! Errrrr hang on I (and my UPO said) that is ridiculous, one can only repay what has been received and not a penny more. They argue that they have paid the Tax and NI for me and therefore I should pay it back to them and then claim it back from the Tax and NI office.

Problem 1: I do not have a spare £7k to give back to JPAC (to lose, spend on the christmas party etc etc) as I NEVER received it.

Problem 2: Having spoken to the Tax office they are not remotely interested in helping as they say it is between me and my employer.

Problem 3: Whilst they have tried to help, my local UPO has no expertise in this matter and even with the intervention of a tamed Commander JPAC are admant that I owe them £7k.

Does anyone have any experience of a similar situation or is fluent in the language of Tax and NI and can offer some advice?

JPAC are stating that they will recover the £7k through 4 days pay a month from March when I return to work. This is money that I never bloody had though. Agggghhhhhhhhh

Right,

This is still bloody going on months later and those total faceless, nameless, blameless arse holes at JPAC will not help. My UPO is being next to useless and I am still being chased for money I never received.

Is there anyone out there who is a tax expert that could help with my snag? Or can anyone point me in the right direction of some free tax expert help? I have tried CAB and got nowhere. The service complaint has got me nowhere and the clock is ticking, I return to active service on the 10 March and they are point blank demanding that as soon as I start earning again they will start claming the dosh back. Dosh that I never bloody got. I rang the Tax Office they were useless too and said it wasn't their problem - it was JPAC's problem to sort out.

I am actually starting to worry myself sick about this now. Any help greatly appreciated.



NGB

[4fitter]

Ladies & gentlemen, only this week I had cause to speak to'HR' and ask why my pay had not increased at the increment point - 6 months later. It transpired that JPAC told me I was on a disciplinary warning had been given a grading of D on my OJAR and therefore was subject to a thing called a DIP.

This of course was a surprise to me and it required me to get my 2* to ring them and tell them I was quite a decent sort who was at least a B. JPAC blamed HR - HR blamed JPAC. I despair and will have to wait at least 2 months - optimistically, to get my back pay.

[SubdiFuge]

If I were you I'd write giving them 2 further weeks to sort this before telling them that you will go to a tax accountant for specialist advice. Also tell them that when they start taking the gross money off you (should the accountant have told you that it is illegal) you will be taking them to court to gain an injunction to stop them doing so, claiming back the accountants fees and your costs.

You sound like you are under a lot of stress, so on your first day back, go and see the doc and get signed off on stress leave.

[arandcee]

pm sent . . . . .

[LFFC]

House of Commons Defence Committee
Recruiting and retaining Armed Forces personnel: Government response to the Committee's Fourteenth Report of Session 2007–08
3 Nov 08

Joint Personnel Administration.

39. (Recommendation 40) The Joint Personnel Administration system offers potential efficiency and business benefits. However, we are concerned that Service personnel are not receiving the money that they are entitled to because JPA is difficult to use. A number of military administrative and support posts have been cut as part of an efficiency programme and as a result, Service personnel are not getting the help which they require and should be entitled to. We consider that these difficulties stem from poor planning and ineffective training. In its response to our report, we expect the MoD to set out what action it plans to take to address what is, in our view, a totally unacceptable state of affairs. Paragraph 161)

40. (Recommendation 41) The Joint Personnel Administration call centre is the frontline for Service personnel who have questions about their pay, allowances and career. As such, it is critical that the advisers staffing it are thoroughly trained and properly equipped to perform their roles. However, the feedback we have received suggest that they are not. We welcome the Government’s recent indication that additional training for call centre staff has improved levels of customer satisfaction. In its response to our Report we expect the MoD to provide us with an update on levels of customer satisfaction. (Paragraph 162)

...and the government's response was:

Joint Personnel Administration is a major change programme to modernise the administrative support to all members of the Armed Forces. The Armed Forces are benefiting from more harmonised and simplified business processes and policies and, for individuals, greater visibility of their personal information and the benefits of self-service use. Where self-service administration has been introduced it has been well received, with the ease and speed of dealing with expenses proving extremely popular.

Joint Personnel Administration training has been subject to continuous review and improvement since initial implementation. However, it is recognised that there are still issues in terms of the training needed to ensure that individuals get the most out of the selfservice capability. The Under Secretary of State therefore recently commissioned an independent study to look at Joint Personnel Administration training. The Ministry of Defence is currently looking at the recommendations arising from this study and will draw up an action plan to deliver improvements in the Joint Personnel Administration system/person interface.

Separately, the Service Personnel and Veterans’ Agency, working with their Commercial Partners EDS, and the single Services, has seen overall self service personnel satisfaction levels increase from 68% in November 2007 to 77% in June 2008. Processes, knowledge and communication initiatives have been implemented to improve the Enquiry Centre and back-office functions and Enquiry Centre agents now complete a 16 week training course and visit units to gain a better understanding of the needs of the individuals they are there to support. As a consequence, communication between Service Personnel and the Enquiry Centre is improving. The impact of these measures has seen 47% of personnel surveyed identifying an improvement in the services provided by the Joint Personnel Administration Centre in the preceding three month period. In particular, self service satisfaction with Joint Personnel Administration Centre contact has increased from 31.5% to 45.5%.

So less than half of us are satisfied with the JPAC. That's not surprising when you read a thread like this!!

[Melchett01]

Yet another confirmation - if another was needed - that JPAC and JPA just isn't fit for purpose.

I haven't been paid correctly since July last year when I went back to the desert. LSA and OA payments were all over the place, took until November to sort out, and then in November when I moved off base .... well that was it as far as JPAC was concerned which just shed a track when it came to working out correct pay.

I did query why if I was being paid HTD, was I still being charged food and accommodation. So I don't think it would be able to cope with something as 'complex' as a career break and a different bank account. I'd be looking to redress and possibly, as suggested already, either go to my MP pronto or if that fails, a court injunction to prevent them from reclaiming the money. Although, the downside risk to this bit is that they don't pay you at all depending on how the injunction is worded.

[adminblunty]

Anybody know what JSP 754 says on the matter of over issue recoveries (net or gross)? Its possible that the JPAC have got it wrong. I don't have access to the JSP. It's worth a try.

[NickGooseBrady]

Thanks for the replies and the PM's.

I have now contacted the local MP and have an appointment with him this Saturday! He is very interested to hear what I have to say. JPAC screwing up is quite a hot potato apparently.

In the meantime I shall continue to bang my head against a brick wall.

I hate to think of the injustice that is being pumped out by JPAC on a daily basis and the millions of wasted pounds on a system that is quite frankly fcuked when it comes to anything that doesn't fit the algorythm's that were obviously designed by a bunch of gormless IT plonkers / primary school kids.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

NGB

[Melchett01]

the algorythm's that were obviously designed by a bunch of gormless IT plonkers / primary school kids.

I think you'll find that if the system had been designed by primary school kids, it would have probably worked more or less first time out!

[anotherthing]

NGB

I'm no longer in the services, but this matter arose a couple of months ago in my company. Someone was mistakenly paid for a days overtime that I had actually carried out.

The pay department wanted to take the gross amount off them, but they argued that as they had only received a Net payment, they should only pay that back and that it was the companies' responsibility to claim back the tax from HMG.

The company decided that this was the only fair way of doing it, so did so.

The moneyu involved (£550) was nothing like the amount you are talking about, but the principle remains the same.

The company initially said that the other persons pay would 'even itself out' over the tax year if they paid back the gross amount - they quite rightly pointed out that there are procedures in place for companies to recover tax on mistakenly paid amounts, and they also pointed out that it was unfair for them to have to be out of pocket over a few months because of a mistake by the pay department.

The fact is, there are avenues that JPAC can go down to get the tax back themselves, and there will be a hardship for you if they wish to recover the full Gross amount. Do not let them tell you otherwise! (I realise it's more difficult for an acting serviceman to do this).

Good luck with the MP

[SRENNAPS]

So the Tax office were useless, you have got nowhere with the CAB, your UPO is next to useless and JPAC are faceless, nameless and blameless @$$$$$$. Oh and your service complaint has got you nowhere either.

But you are after a “Tax Expert”, or a pointer in the right direction for some “FREE” tax expert help….and both from PPruNe…….the answer to all your problems.

I wonder what your MP will be called if he can’t solve your problem.

I suspect there is something more to this than you are letting on, or the advice you are getting off “established” organisations is advice that you do not wish to hear. Also you do seem to have an attitude towards those establishments that could provide advice; that won’t exactly help your case!!!!

I apologise if I am wrong but I find it hard to believe that you are unable to sort this out without coming on here and highly criticizing every organisation that could help you. You are not the first person to be overpaid and you won’t be the last.

If I am wrong, then good luck in your pursuit to resolve this matter. However, if I am even remotely correct in some of my assumptions then I suggest that you start listening to people in authority and stop listening to barrack room lawyers.

[NickGooseBrady]

SRENNAPS,

You arrogant, little ****e. I have come on here because of total and utter desperation. My UPO have tried their best, I have not been critical of them. HMRC have quite rightly told me that it is JPAC's problem not mine. The only organisation I am critical of is JPAC. Have you ever really had to deal with these people? That's if you actually manage to speak to someone. Have you ever been threatened to have pay taken away from you WHICH YOU NEVER RECEIVED (not just a simple overpayment you thicko) but nobody and I mean NOBODY will explain to you why?

It is not black and white, if it were then I am sure the system may cope, the issue is arrising because of the Tax and NI implications. I have had several PMs from HMRC employees and they have been bloody helpful, the bottom line though is that it is JPACs problem.

There is nothing hidden here, just total incompetence by JPAC. If you have nothing useful to add then go back under your rock.

Thankyou to everyone who has helped and I appreciate that I am not the first and wont be the last.

NGB

[SRENNAPS]

NGB,

I did not mean to sound arrogant, hence my apology in my original post if I had got it wrong. I also wished you good luck if I was wrong.

Maybe you should have posted some positive comments about those that have tried to help you and I would have thought differently about you.

It does seem to me that you snarl in the face of anybody that offers any form of advice that you do not like, hence some of your words to me in your reply to my post:

You arrogant, little ****e

&

not just a simple overpayment you thicko

I do not know you and therefore cannot judge you. However, to me, you have come across as somebody that blames “the messenger”. I know plenty of people who try the “rip someone’s head off” approach to resolve an issue and although they will get the issue resolved in the end, it is made extremely difficult for them to do so. You gave me the impression that you were one of those, but I could be wrong.

If I am wrong, I sincerely apologise and I wish you good luck in your pursuit to resolve this obviously frustrating and worrying matter.

[Shadwell the old]

NGB,

A pity you had to rise to the bait dangled before you by that w*nker Srennaps or whatever he is called - although I fully understand your frustration at the lack of help you are receiving. His opinion is worthless and I am sure he would be the first to complain if something similar happened to him. To$$er!

I run my own business doing, amongst other things, payroll for small businesses. I have had occassions when someone has been overpaid and it has been agreed that the overpayment would be deducted from the next months salary. The NET repayment was recovered from the employee and the overpaid NI and tax was deducted from that months HMRC payment. Simple. At the end of the year when the annual returns are submitted everything is fine with the correct annual payments having been made. Everybody is happy and everyones' blood pressure remains normal.

What is lacking with JPAC is the will to sort out the problem. If they so desired they could sort it at the blink of an eye.

If there is anything I can do for you, please dont hesitate to PM me.

Shadwell

[SRENNAPS]

Shadwell the old,

Many thanks for those complimentary words. Words like that seem all too common and acceptable on PPruNe these days; a great shame.

I was merely trying to point out that having an attitude during situations like this will not help to resolve the problem.

Do you not consider that JPAC monitors this website, especially with all the negative PR that has been given since it was introduced (and I have given some here myself as well).

I don’t think that it would have taken a brain of Briton for somebody in JPAC to work out who NGB was. Do you think that if they had read his first post they were going to bend over backwards to help him. And the situation to his cause has just been made worst with some of the abusive comments.

Having a negative and abusive attitude does not help any situation.

[SRENNAPS]

AIDU,

Thanks for the correction......I never said I was one

[Paywaller]

Object to overpayment

If they have told you that they are going to take the dosh back in March object to the recovery saying you don't think you should repay the tax because you haven't received it. They will then have to provide a very good reason for taking any further action. There is a DIN on thhow to do this which even your UPO should know about.

[The Oberon]

For what it's worth I had a similar experience with the Civil Service. I retired, had picked up my gratuity and was being paid my pension. I then found out that my salary was still being paid as well. I kept the salary tucked away in a separate account and tried to contact the C.S. to get things sorted out. Over a six month period I called Bath weekly, sent weekly e-mails and several recorded delivery letters. Nobody seemed to know what to do, the help desk referred me to the "pay team" who transferred me to someone else. Eventually I got through to someone who knew how to handle the problem and within a few days I had a revised P45 and all the other paperwork required. At no time was it suggested that I payed back the gross amount.

It does seem that there are people out there who can solve problems like this and just don't work from a prompt sheet.

Oh, and having claimed poverty they didn't mind me paying back by direct debit over a period of montths.

Is there that much difference between MOD civil servants and the services ?

[jimjim1]

It for sure doesn't have to be like that.

Just a me too.

I was overpaid by a large company due to their error - they just started sending me money They asked me to give them a cheque for the amount that I had recieved in error and they took care of all the tax and NI. 2 mins.

Good luck.