F-35 Joint Strike Fighter
Three hours for a response and that's the best you can do?
I'm not going to engage in a battle of wits with you, though. Fighting an unarmed man isn't much fun.
I'm not going to engage in a battle of wits with you, though. Fighting an unarmed man isn't much fun.
Jacko -
As all those who have ever run across Mr Hewson will know, he is opinionated and a big fan of Gripen and the Swedish industry in general.
Now, before Pious Pilot has an apoplectic fit: That is not a bad thing. (The opinions, that is, not the fit, which might be quite OK.)
Journalists are supposed to be "objective". However, nobody can define what that term means. If you mean "never exercising any judgment on what anyone tells you" the news will get very confusing, since usually different people will tell you different things. Soviet journalists used to be "objective" in the sense that they uncritically repeated the official line.
In fact, it's part of the job to call bull
when necessary, and particularly when the bull is obvious but nobody else is calling it. In the process you make judgments, formed on the basis of your background knowledge and experience. Those judgments are not readily distinguishable from opinions.
This is necessary in most aerospace/defense reporting because there are a lot of people out there whose business is to sell things. People who sell things tend to utter bull in the process, whether they are the Avon lady or the marketing VP for Daddy Warbucks.
So rather than being "objective", professional integrity as a journalist (if you want to spout off about the use of the word "integrity" please go to Jet Blast and do it there) amounts to intellectual honesty - not pre-selecting the facts that support a view that you hold for other reasons that you don't disclose. It means being prepared to change your mind when the facts change (which they do). It means being prepared to defend your views, honestly and without personal rancor.
As for the Swedish piece, spend some time listening to them and watching them. Who else has delivered a bunch of fighters under budget, and handed the change back to the customer?
Now, that's change I can live with.
As all those who have ever run across Mr Hewson will know, he is opinionated and a big fan of Gripen and the Swedish industry in general.
Now, before Pious Pilot has an apoplectic fit: That is not a bad thing. (The opinions, that is, not the fit, which might be quite OK.)
Journalists are supposed to be "objective". However, nobody can define what that term means. If you mean "never exercising any judgment on what anyone tells you" the news will get very confusing, since usually different people will tell you different things. Soviet journalists used to be "objective" in the sense that they uncritically repeated the official line.
In fact, it's part of the job to call bull
when necessary, and particularly when the bull is obvious but nobody else is calling it. In the process you make judgments, formed on the basis of your background knowledge and experience. Those judgments are not readily distinguishable from opinions.This is necessary in most aerospace/defense reporting because there are a lot of people out there whose business is to sell things. People who sell things tend to utter bull
in the process, whether they are the Avon lady or the marketing VP for Daddy Warbucks. So rather than being "objective", professional integrity as a journalist (if you want to spout off about the use of the word "integrity" please go to Jet Blast and do it there) amounts to intellectual honesty - not pre-selecting the facts that support a view that you hold for other reasons that you don't disclose. It means being prepared to change your mind when the facts change (which they do). It means being prepared to defend your views, honestly and without personal rancor.
As for the Swedish piece, spend some time listening to them and watching them. Who else has delivered a bunch of fighters under budget, and handed the change back to the customer?
Now, that's change I can live with.
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OK... I'll start by stating: I'm a former USMC aircraft tech... I think the F-35 is a great aircraft, and I think the F-35B is the perfect aircraft for the USMC.
Now... it is NOT the perfect aircraft for Norway!
Between Gripen NG and F-35, guess which one I think is best for Norway?
To me, G-NG would be better operationally, financially, industrially, and politically for Norway.
The US & NATO won't start sidelining or ignoring Norway if they bought Swedish, as they are geographically vital for security of the North Atlantic... nor will there be operational problems, as Saab has successfully shown they can set up Gripens for NATO-standard data-links, radios, weapons, etc just fine.
Norway, however, would gain closer friendship, military, political, and industrial ties with its stronger next-door neighbor... which is good considering the "bear around the corner".
Operationally, G-NG would do everything Norway really needs... do you really see Norway trying a "cross-border, first-day-of-war" penetration of Russian airspace without NATO flying beside them? I don't... but being able to work seamlessly with Sweden's air force would help Norway's defense immensly.
Norwegian industry's work-load on the F-35 is secure, and they would then get some work-share on G-NG in addition.
I don't for a minute believe that the F-35 is cheaper than G-NG... but I can see how L-M might have offered them to Norway for exactly the cost Norway is quoting... they're acting like a shady car dealer.
You know, the guy who puts an ad in the paper advertising "Super discount on new cars"... and the price is so low you get excited and miss the fine print in the lower corner that lists 2 vehicle identification numbers? You then go rushing down to the lot, only to find every car is marked at normal price... and he tells you the sale was just on those two cars, and "we just sold them... but let me show you this one, and see what we can work out"?
Well, L-M is the dealer, and Norway's F-35s are those 2 cars... the plan is to get everyone so excited about Norway's price that they get their hearts set on getting some F-35s, and then sweet-talk them into buying at the higher, normal cost.
It's called "Bait-and-switch", and it happens all the time in sales all over the world.
Now... it is NOT the perfect aircraft for Norway!
Between Gripen NG and F-35, guess which one I think is best for Norway?
To me, G-NG would be better operationally, financially, industrially, and politically for Norway.
The US & NATO won't start sidelining or ignoring Norway if they bought Swedish, as they are geographically vital for security of the North Atlantic... nor will there be operational problems, as Saab has successfully shown they can set up Gripens for NATO-standard data-links, radios, weapons, etc just fine.
Norway, however, would gain closer friendship, military, political, and industrial ties with its stronger next-door neighbor... which is good considering the "bear around the corner".
Operationally, G-NG would do everything Norway really needs... do you really see Norway trying a "cross-border, first-day-of-war" penetration of Russian airspace without NATO flying beside them? I don't... but being able to work seamlessly with Sweden's air force would help Norway's defense immensly.
Norwegian industry's work-load on the F-35 is secure, and they would then get some work-share on G-NG in addition.
I don't for a minute believe that the F-35 is cheaper than G-NG... but I can see how L-M might have offered them to Norway for exactly the cost Norway is quoting... they're acting like a shady car dealer.
You know, the guy who puts an ad in the paper advertising "Super discount on new cars"... and the price is so low you get excited and miss the fine print in the lower corner that lists 2 vehicle identification numbers? You then go rushing down to the lot, only to find every car is marked at normal price... and he tells you the sale was just on those two cars, and "we just sold them... but let me show you this one, and see what we can work out"?
Well, L-M is the dealer, and Norway's F-35s are those 2 cars... the plan is to get everyone so excited about Norway's price that they get their hearts set on getting some F-35s, and then sweet-talk them into buying at the higher, normal cost.
It's called "Bait-and-switch", and it happens all the time in sales all over the world.
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Three hours for a response and that's the best you can do?
I'm not going to engage in a battle of wits with you, though. Fighting an unarmed man isn't much fun.
I'm not going to engage in a battle of wits with you, though. Fighting an unarmed man isn't much fun.
Last edited by Thelma Viaduct; 2nd Dec 2008 at 05:59. Reason: It took 13hrs of careful thought.
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Three hours for a response and that's the best you can do?
I'm not going to engage in a battle of wits with you, though. Fighting an unarmed man isn't much fun.
I'm not going to engage in a battle of wits with you, though. Fighting an unarmed man isn't much fun.
A draw, then. At best.
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Quote:
Three hours for a response and that's the best you can do?
I'm not going to engage in a battle of wits with you, though. Fighting an unarmed man isn't much fun.
I must admit, I was looking at your response for a whole 3 hours due to its lack of coherence.
Three hours for a response and that's the best you can do?
I'm not going to engage in a battle of wits with you, though. Fighting an unarmed man isn't much fun.
I must admit, I was looking at your response for a whole 3 hours due to its lack of coherence.
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Whereas judging someone on the basis of two quotes, taken out of context, is evidence of what?
And from someone who registered specifically to make that one post.....
And from someone who registered specifically to make that one post.....
Jacko has finally gone Senile which goes a long way to explain his impartiality as a journalist!
I'll soon plummet through chimp level IQ and be down to Texan levels of intelligence.
Children children - please take your infantile battle to Jet Blast and let the thread get back to a meaningful discussion on the F-35! 
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I'll soon plummet through chimp level IQ and be down to Texan levels of intelligence.
Funny, I believe the F-35 is being (largely) designed/built in Ft Worth, Texas.
Also humorous that a Texan has been leading the dance for the last 8 years.
Finally, that's your best?
Texans would scoff.
They wouldn't care, but if they did, they'd scoff.
I'm not a Texan, but I'll substitute for one...
I'd be interested in hearing Wingingitnow's views on Typhoon vs Rafale [well, not really] just to be sure that he isn't Gegene recreated.... The potential libel (on JN's tippling habits) is straight out of the Gegene trolling handbook after all...
Back on track, I suspect that there is much to commend GK121's analysis of the situation. It's not altogether clear why Norway (given the likely outlook of future governments ) absolutely has to have early entry capability, and I'd have thought that the Gripen would've been more suited to their needs. But I'm not in the RoNAF procurement team, so they may know better, unless they've been steered towards Fort Worth by their political masters...
Back on track, I suspect that there is much to commend GK121's analysis of the situation. It's not altogether clear why Norway (given the likely outlook of future governments ) absolutely has to have early entry capability, and I'd have thought that the Gripen would've been more suited to their needs. But I'm not in the RoNAF procurement team, so they may know better, unless they've been steered towards Fort Worth by their political masters...
Thanks Archimedes, you are a perceptive chap.
I'd actually quite like to be a drunk, occasionally, and I'd certainly like to not have Type II Diabetes, and to be able to drink whenever I felt like it, rather than waiting for that rare combination of feeling like it and feeling well enough to imbibe.....
As a matter of fact, my last alcoholic drink was a week ago last Saturday, when I had two glasses of champagne. I guess that I average one small beer per fortnight.
I suspect that JSF may be right for Norway (or that the Air Force genuinely think that it is – after their very successful experience with the F-16). But it’s the process that’s at issue, not the decision.
Brick (and Whingeing),
When making a jokey remark about Texan intelligence I was addressing Barn Doors, after his crack about my senility. It was banter, it was aimed at him, and if it’s too much for your delicate sensibilities, I should poke off somewhere more genteel.
Highlighting the “leader of the dance” from the last eight years as an exemplar of Texan intelligence is not a convincing argument, Brick, outside the Republican right, however.
Whingeingnow,
Your only posts on PPRuNe have been to attack Rob Hewson (a real person, not a PPRuNe user name) from behind an anonymous internet identity. I think that makes you a coward and I suspect your motives.
This is even more offensive than the usual generalized anti-journo nonsense, as you’re anonymously attacking one of the professions leading exponents, by name.
You then accused me of ‘stupidity’ when I express an honest opinion that Rob got it broadly right.
You also accuse me of being an arrogant drunk (you don’t know me, and you’re wrong) and imply that I’m not a journo (I merely “hang around people in the business and call myself a journalist”).
I suspect that you’re resorting to ad hominem attacks because you can’t answer the specific points, and because you resent those who use debate and argument to undermine your prejudices, and who can marshall inconvenient facts about pricing to attack a US product. How dare these limeys criticize the JSF?
Whatever the case, I know Rob, so I know that he’s worth at least ten of you. I’m sure he’ll laugh at your witless abuse, and so should I, but such unjustified attacks on one of the good guys in this business really should not go unanswered.
I'd actually quite like to be a drunk, occasionally, and I'd certainly like to not have Type II Diabetes, and to be able to drink whenever I felt like it, rather than waiting for that rare combination of feeling like it and feeling well enough to imbibe.....
As a matter of fact, my last alcoholic drink was a week ago last Saturday, when I had two glasses of champagne. I guess that I average one small beer per fortnight.
I suspect that JSF may be right for Norway (or that the Air Force genuinely think that it is – after their very successful experience with the F-16). But it’s the process that’s at issue, not the decision.
Brick (and Whingeing),
When making a jokey remark about Texan intelligence I was addressing Barn Doors, after his crack about my senility. It was banter, it was aimed at him, and if it’s too much for your delicate sensibilities, I should poke off somewhere more genteel.
Highlighting the “leader of the dance” from the last eight years as an exemplar of Texan intelligence is not a convincing argument, Brick, outside the Republican right, however.
Whingeingnow,
Your only posts on PPRuNe have been to attack Rob Hewson (a real person, not a PPRuNe user name) from behind an anonymous internet identity. I think that makes you a coward and I suspect your motives.
This is even more offensive than the usual generalized anti-journo nonsense, as you’re anonymously attacking one of the professions leading exponents, by name.
You then accused me of ‘stupidity’ when I express an honest opinion that Rob got it broadly right.
You also accuse me of being an arrogant drunk (you don’t know me, and you’re wrong) and imply that I’m not a journo (I merely “hang around people in the business and call myself a journalist”).
I suspect that you’re resorting to ad hominem attacks because you can’t answer the specific points, and because you resent those who use debate and argument to undermine your prejudices, and who can marshall inconvenient facts about pricing to attack a US product. How dare these limeys criticize the JSF?
Whatever the case, I know Rob, so I know that he’s worth at least ten of you. I’m sure he’ll laugh at your witless abuse, and so should I, but such unjustified attacks on one of the good guys in this business really should not go unanswered.
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Australian Air Force Campaigns For 100 F-35s
Dec 3, 2008
By Bradley Perrett
The Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) is stepping up its lobbying efforts for a full order of 100 F-35 Lightning IIs, a number that has been officially endorsed but could easily be trimmed in a defense white paper due next year.
The chief of the air force, Air Marshal Mark Binskin, strongly defends the choice of Lockheed Martin’s F-35 as its next fighter, arguing that it will be part of an integrated airpower system and the country could not hope to find better.
...
Australian Air Force Campaigns For 100 F-35s | AVIATION WEEK
Australians don't really want those airplanes. Bush is makin' 'em do it.
Dec 3, 2008
By Bradley Perrett
The Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) is stepping up its lobbying efforts for a full order of 100 F-35 Lightning IIs, a number that has been officially endorsed but could easily be trimmed in a defense white paper due next year.
The chief of the air force, Air Marshal Mark Binskin, strongly defends the choice of Lockheed Martin’s F-35 as its next fighter, arguing that it will be part of an integrated airpower system and the country could not hope to find better.
...
Australian Air Force Campaigns For 100 F-35s | AVIATION WEEK
Australians don't really want those airplanes. Bush is makin' 'em do it.
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Actuallt its the F22 Australia really wants but its not for sale.
Australia requires a next Gen all rounder to replace and expand current F-18 and F-111 capabilities, at themoment F-35 is the only serious game in town.
Would love to see Typhoon/Rafale get a look in but dont consider them part of the mix, possably seen by some as Gen 4.5 and a bit 'last years model' not putting either of them down just simply expressing my feeling on what the whisper is around some parts.
Plus the '35 is made in America.
And its made in America.
Our Air Force likes American metal, apart from Tankers but thats another story.
Australia requires a next Gen all rounder to replace and expand current F-18 and F-111 capabilities, at themoment F-35 is the only serious game in town.
Would love to see Typhoon/Rafale get a look in but dont consider them part of the mix, possably seen by some as Gen 4.5 and a bit 'last years model' not putting either of them down just simply expressing my feeling on what the whisper is around some parts.
Plus the '35 is made in America.
And its made in America.
Our Air Force likes American metal, apart from Tankers but thats another story.
Actuallt its the F22 Australia really wants but its not for sale.
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If there are so many concerns being raised in Australia about the JSF, why doesn't it buy a mix of the aircraft plus something like the Eurofighter? It might not be the F-22, but at least you'd have a mix of air superiority fighters and a stealthy bomb truck. Not that it may have had any relevance to that idea, but the Australian defence minister toured EADS Casa's site this week and got a briefing on the Eurofighter and looked at the Spanish production line.
Norway showed that JSF's combination of capability, acquisition price and support costs are unbeatable.
If, that is:
You accept what the LockMart PowerPoints say about its capability;
You believe that the acquisition costs cited now are the price that you'll pay when it comes time to sign a contract;
and that the support costs are what you'll really see in service, once you are totally committed to reliance on a monopoly supplier;
and Santa, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny not only exist, but are ready to sign up for JSF as well.
The first problem for the jet's competitors is that the customers can and will (quite rightly) ask for real numbers. If you want to know how much a Gripen NG will cost per flying hour, you can get a pretty good idea from the Czechs, coupled with US Navy data on the F414. The price of a Typhoon is there in black and white as part of a contract.
The second problem for the competition, in terms of capabilities, is that stealth allows LMT to close any public argument with "I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you."
If, that is:
You accept what the LockMart PowerPoints say about its capability;
You believe that the acquisition costs cited now are the price that you'll pay when it comes time to sign a contract;
and that the support costs are what you'll really see in service, once you are totally committed to reliance on a monopoly supplier;
and Santa, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny not only exist, but are ready to sign up for JSF as well.
The first problem for the jet's competitors is that the customers can and will (quite rightly) ask for real numbers. If you want to know how much a Gripen NG will cost per flying hour, you can get a pretty good idea from the Czechs, coupled with US Navy data on the F414. The price of a Typhoon is there in black and white as part of a contract.
The second problem for the competition, in terms of capabilities, is that stealth allows LMT to close any public argument with "I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you."
