The SHAR adventures!
Thread Starter
From memory, Tony initially thought there were two (possibly four) bogies out there to begin with and communicated this to Martin. 'Intelligence suggested' at the time we were up against the Mirage III's armed with Magic and Matra so it was a very reasonable assumption for Martin to make.
Using a monumental amount of conjecture I suppose it is possible Martin saw the tank release from Ardiles and thought it was a missile release.
He turns his climb into a vertical dive and thereby presents Ardiles with a rear hemisphere shot. Ardiles manouevres for the shot and fires and in doing so gets shot by Tony.
Sounds like the picture was pretty confused. (As usual) The conspiracy theorists could have a field day, could they not? Tony had the only other air to air radar in the area that could have locked Martin.
Only joking although having said that that guy on the Dogfights series (Giora Epstein of the Israeli air force with 17 kills) was known to report bogus missile firings so that his wingies could p*ss off for a few seconds enough for him to get a kill! All part of the legend I am sure but I do remember reading one of his wingmen going on record that both he and Epstein were headed for the same Mig one day and he had to break off because Epstein shot at everything (he actually shot past his wingman to get the kill, which I think is similar to Mike Blissett's kill on an A-4 while shooting past Neil Thomas on 21 May!) History repeats itself! Ironically Epstein shot 12 egyptian aircraft in the 1973 while flying the Nesher which was later sold off to Argentina and many of which did not survive the encounters with the SHAR and AAA/SAMs at San Carlos and elsewhere!
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The word from Martin is that he and Tony were in one mile battle spread at 20,000 feet under the control of HMS Invincible. Ardiles was inbound on a reciprocal 10,000 feet above. Martin had the only serviceable radar but never gained radar contact. At about ten miles Martin saw the missile release and guide towards him. He describes a very strong white smoke trail just like the missiles he has shot and seen shot. At no stage did he get any indications on his RWR. He carried out the evasion manoeuvre and was on his way back up when he saw Tony's shot against Ardiles above him.
What is curious is that the controller reported a second target exiting the area at high speed after Ardiles was splashed. As far as I know Ardiles' wingman went u/s on start and never accompanied him to the Falklands.
I am trying to contact Donadille (later shot down by Steve Thomas) to see if he can shed any light on the situation as he was apparently airborne in the area at the time.
ES
What is curious is that the controller reported a second target exiting the area at high speed after Ardiles was splashed. As far as I know Ardiles' wingman went u/s on start and never accompanied him to the Falklands.
I am trying to contact Donadille (later shot down by Steve Thomas) to see if he can shed any light on the situation as he was apparently airborne in the area at the time.
ES
For ES, any updates to your crash sites thread?
ES, wondering if you have any updates to your Falklands crash sites thread (last update in April 08). You were working with some contacts and hoped to get any info if indeed there had been AIM-9 damage on the wreakage. All very interesting- would make a great book!
Thread Starter
Yes, Argentinian accounts state that Ardiles' wingman went u/s and he carried on alone. He was in a Dagger (former Israeli built Mirage V - Nesher) and unsurprisingly carried the Israeli made Shafrir 2. So that's what Ardiles launched and not a R550 Magic. However, the Shafrir 2 was an AIM-9D/G class weapon and also comparable to the french Magic and although a good missile it was certainly inferior to the AIM-9L and more importantly did not have ALASCA (all-aspect capability). Therefore, Hale logically elected to get out of the way when he saw a head on missile as he most probably would not have known whether it was a radar missile-equipped Mirage or an IR-missile-carrying Dagger. Whether Ardiles launched while having a good tone..well it must be a moot point. No ALASCA-no joy!
Why did he shoot? Well scare tactics come into mind although he doesn't seem to have come into the fight full-hearted as apparently he then proceeded to light the burner present aspect by turning to escape and in doing so presented a good IR source to Penfold.
What is curious to me though is that several reports (apparently originating from Hale) said that he was being tracked or locked up by that missile. Since as you've said he never had any indications of RWR he definitely did not have a radar BVR missile on its way to get him (which a Dagger didn't carry anyway). My only assumption (again!) would have been that he got a smoke trail coming his way which had been fired without lock; he took evasive action and in doing so presented a heat source (as he went from head on to a vertical dive). But I am not sure if an IR missile would actually do that. I know of LOAL capability of modern fire and forget IR missiles but I wouldn't know whether a Shafrir 2 of a couple generations back would be able to do that i.e., get launched in the general direction of a target without lock then as the target's heat signature is presented it locks on to it in mid flight! I mean Martin Hale apparently (in terms of what he saw) was convinced that the thing was tracking him! Which in simple technical terms couldn't happen (no head on launch capability)! So how is that possible? (Unless of course - and that yet another scenario- the adrenalin factor made him conclude that it was tracking him when it was not). Again all available reports state that the missile actually "ran out of steam" before getting to him and he'd dived several thousand feet! Now there's a mystery!
Why did he shoot? Well scare tactics come into mind although he doesn't seem to have come into the fight full-hearted as apparently he then proceeded to light the burner present aspect by turning to escape and in doing so presented a good IR source to Penfold.
What is curious to me though is that several reports (apparently originating from Hale) said that he was being tracked or locked up by that missile. Since as you've said he never had any indications of RWR he definitely did not have a radar BVR missile on its way to get him (which a Dagger didn't carry anyway). My only assumption (again!) would have been that he got a smoke trail coming his way which had been fired without lock; he took evasive action and in doing so presented a heat source (as he went from head on to a vertical dive). But I am not sure if an IR missile would actually do that. I know of LOAL capability of modern fire and forget IR missiles but I wouldn't know whether a Shafrir 2 of a couple generations back would be able to do that i.e., get launched in the general direction of a target without lock then as the target's heat signature is presented it locks on to it in mid flight! I mean Martin Hale apparently (in terms of what he saw) was convinced that the thing was tracking him! Which in simple technical terms couldn't happen (no head on launch capability)! So how is that possible? (Unless of course - and that yet another scenario
- the adrenalin factor made him conclude that it was tracking him when it was not). Again all available reports state that the missile actually "ran out of steam" before getting to him and he'd dived several thousand feet! Now there's a mystery!
Thread Starter
Thanks for the input it does help! It means that Ardiles may actually have head a lock on to the SHAR wingman. Yes the Shafrir has had 106 kills and I'd be interested to hear of similar engagements (head on that is). In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the Shafrir 2 had some (limited) h2h capability as indeed may have been the case with the R550 Magic (I, Magic 2 that later equipped the Mirage 2000 was a marvelous missile at the least the equal if not more advanced than the AIM-9M allowing the M2000's exceptional instantaneous TR to be put to deadly effect in WVR scenarios IIRC it could be launched from a 9g turn and pull 50g).
Technology and era wise it would not have been unheard of if the first two missiles had some form of all aspect capability. The Red Top had several years ago (even if it may have been true that it would probably require a high Mach target for skin friction to become observable).
Technology and era wise it would not have been unheard of if the first two missiles had some form of all aspect capability. The Red Top had several years ago (even if it may have been true that it would probably require a high Mach target for skin friction to become observable).
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I should point out the SHAR was difficult to lock up with an IR missile head on as the engine wasn't very hot in forward flight and especially from above (Ardiles would have been looking down) as the wing tended to blank the hot (rear) nozzles. I seriously doubt we would have had the forward speed at that height to generate any significant skin friction on the leading edges!
ES
ES
Last edited by Edmund Spencer; 2nd Nov 2008 at 04:01.
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Sandiego.
Thanks for the reminder.
I am still gathering information on this one. Allan White, the owner of the Pebble Island Lodge in the Falklands has been a priceless source of information. He reckons Cuerva's Mirage III crashed just south west of Stanley airport in the middle of a mine field! Regrettably, this is still off limits so we cannot get access to the wreckage.
There are still several aspects of this incident that haven't been resolved. Cuerva fired a prolonged burst of cannon fire as he flew directly over the town of Stanley at very low level in what looks to have been deep wing rock. Other witnesses have said he was leaking like a ruptured duck! (Badly ruptured.) Whether this was before or after every gun in the whole of Stanley opened up on him, we will probably never know. (Even the soldiers in the streets were firing their small arms, by all accounts.)
Up until that moment, Cuerva had apparently said over the radio his Mirage was in "Pristine condition".
Landing the Mirage III at Stanley would, according to those who have flown the aircraft, have been an extremely hazardous manouevre!
ES
Thanks for the reminder.
I am still gathering information on this one. Allan White, the owner of the Pebble Island Lodge in the Falklands has been a priceless source of information. He reckons Cuerva's Mirage III crashed just south west of Stanley airport in the middle of a mine field! Regrettably, this is still off limits so we cannot get access to the wreckage.
There are still several aspects of this incident that haven't been resolved. Cuerva fired a prolonged burst of cannon fire as he flew directly over the town of Stanley at very low level in what looks to have been deep wing rock. Other witnesses have said he was leaking like a ruptured duck! (Badly ruptured.) Whether this was before or after every gun in the whole of Stanley opened up on him, we will probably never know. (Even the soldiers in the streets were firing their small arms, by all accounts.)
Up until that moment, Cuerva had apparently said over the radio his Mirage was in "Pristine condition".
Landing the Mirage III at Stanley would, according to those who have flown the aircraft, have been an extremely hazardous manouevre!
ES
Last edited by Edmund Spencer; 2nd Nov 2008 at 04:17.
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Moving swiftly along!
The combat between Steve Thomas and Sharkey Ward against Donadille. Senn and Piuma on 21 May 1982 has thrown up some significant discrepancies.
Sharkey and Steve were on a CAP orientated east/west over the middle of West Falkland Island at about 3000 feet.
On the westbound leg with Steve to the north and Sharkey to the south they initiated a parallel turn to the right to the east.
As Steve passed about north he conducted (as was his habit) a roll over to check his belly.
Passing directly underneath him he saw two Mirage V's in echelon port.
This was Donadille (the leader) now in echelon port because he had seen the CAP and called a break to the right and Senn his wingman to the right (Now in the lead geometrically)
Steve turns hard right and shoots Donadille and, quickly, Senn.
Now here is the really interesting bit.
On the run in the Argentinean No.3 was apparently to the north. (Piuma)
After Steve had shot his two targets he rolled out in approximately left battle on Sharkey at which stage Piuma was seen to fly RIGHT TO LEFT in front of Sharkey and subsequently got shot!
Both Donadille and Piuma claim to have shot at SHARS at various moments during the combat with their 30mm cannons.
I will try to publish the geometry from Donadille (which is amazingly detailed considering he was the first to be splashed) and you can compare it to Sharkey's account which seems to bear absolutely no relation at all to the accounts of Steve and the Argentineans.
Having read Sharkey's book it is hard to see how he could have done a 360 and still remained in contact with the fight. Yes, the SHAR could easily accelerate to 600 knots plus at low level but against a target doing 520kts?
ES
The combat between Steve Thomas and Sharkey Ward against Donadille. Senn and Piuma on 21 May 1982 has thrown up some significant discrepancies.
Sharkey and Steve were on a CAP orientated east/west over the middle of West Falkland Island at about 3000 feet.
On the westbound leg with Steve to the north and Sharkey to the south they initiated a parallel turn to the right to the east.
As Steve passed about north he conducted (as was his habit) a roll over to check his belly.
Passing directly underneath him he saw two Mirage V's in echelon port.
This was Donadille (the leader) now in echelon port because he had seen the CAP and called a break to the right and Senn his wingman to the right (Now in the lead geometrically)
Steve turns hard right and shoots Donadille and, quickly, Senn.
Now here is the really interesting bit.
On the run in the Argentinean No.3 was apparently to the north. (Piuma)
After Steve had shot his two targets he rolled out in approximately left battle on Sharkey at which stage Piuma was seen to fly RIGHT TO LEFT in front of Sharkey and subsequently got shot!
Both Donadille and Piuma claim to have shot at SHARS at various moments during the combat with their 30mm cannons.
I will try to publish the geometry from Donadille (which is amazingly detailed considering he was the first to be splashed) and you can compare it to Sharkey's account which seems to bear absolutely no relation at all to the accounts of Steve and the Argentineans.
Having read Sharkey's book it is hard to see how he could have done a 360 and still remained in contact with the fight. Yes, the SHAR could easily accelerate to 600 knots plus at low level but against a target doing 520kts?
ES
Thread Starter
I should point out the SHAR was difficult to lock up with an IR missile head on as the engine wasn't very hot in forward flight and especially from above (Ardiles would have been looking down) as the wing tended to blank the hot (rear) nozzles. I seriously doubt we would have had the forward speed at that height to generate any significant skin friction on the leading edges!
Wrt the Ward-Thomas splashes on 21 May I recall from memory (!! I don't have Sharkey's book with me) the figure drawn up in Sharkey's book and it was a down the throat merge from Sharkey through two Daggers flying welded wing echelon type of formation (Senn-Donadille?). Steve Thomas was offset well to the right in battle formation. The pair then swing right onto an escape heading. Sharkey pulls right and towards his wingman's side into a 360 to get onto their tails. The right break of the argentinian formation put the left turning Thomas into their 6 o'clock and the rest is history. A perfect setup. Meanwhile Dagger n.3 pops out out of nowhere (out from the north as Sharkey has turned through about 180-270deg of his 360 takes a shot at him then passes obliquely down to his left side having had a snapshot from Sharkey's 4-5o'clock position. He apparently thought that his high speed would carry him through to safety by the time Sharkey had turned around.
Now on Steve's account things are a bit confused. As you say Steve was off north of Sharkey (ie, to the right of Sharkey). When they inititiatd a right turn I assume they'd crossed paths putting Thomas to Sharkey's left? This would contrary to Sharkey's diagram in the book. If indeed Thomas entered the fight to the left of Sharkey he would have broken right towards the Daggers. The diagram in the books shows the exact opposite happening.
By the way the 1 May Thomas-Barton engagement with Mirages is also wrong in Sharkey's book (if the 21 May diagram is in the first place). Both Barton and Thomas versions that I have read agree that Thomas broke right after the merge with the Mirages and into Barton. Sharkey's diagram depicts Thomas going left. I assume that would have been a more correct thing to do wouldn't it? I am waiting to stand corrected but if you got an enemy formation bracketed with your wingman well offset you wouldn't actually want to break into your wingman after the merge would you? I assume that if the leader merges with the enemy formation then he would like to force the enemy into a turn away from his wingman so as to set him up for a shot straight away? In the event of 21 May the Daggers did not turn into Thomas so they presented themselves nicely as targets by turning the other way to escape.
Suspicion breeds confidence
I remember doing a paper exercise after Corporate where we looked at the AIM-9 engagements, from memory we could only find two that were obviously outside the AIM-9G's envelope, one of which was Bertie Penfold's kill. The Argentines hyped up the value of the AIM-9L to disguise the fact that they were comprehensively out-flown and out matched by the Fleet Air Arm.
We also looked at Sea Dart engagements very closely, using Exeter's open water kills as an guide and found that at least a further 10 to 12 kills could have been obtained if GWS30 has functioned correctly and used in open water. The strategy of placing escorts in Falkland Sound to split up attacks was sound but would have worked better if a fully worked up T42 was positioned West of the Falklands in open water where its weapons system was very effective even against low level targets. If Glasgow's flash doors hadn't failed she could most likely have taken out all four A4s without help. I remember a debrief from her CO, Paul Hoddinot. She had both 909's locked on the raid and her Ops team could have managed three Sea Dart salvoes in the time it took the raid to reach the ship.
We also looked at Sea Dart engagements very closely, using Exeter's open water kills as an guide and found that at least a further 10 to 12 kills could have been obtained if GWS30 has functioned correctly and used in open water. The strategy of placing escorts in Falkland Sound to split up attacks was sound but would have worked better if a fully worked up T42 was positioned West of the Falklands in open water where its weapons system was very effective even against low level targets. If Glasgow's flash doors hadn't failed she could most likely have taken out all four A4s without help. I remember a debrief from her CO, Paul Hoddinot. She had both 909's locked on the raid and her Ops team could have managed three Sea Dart salvoes in the time it took the raid to reach the ship.
Thread Starter
Good point there about the capability that the AIM-9L brought to the Falklands, Navaleye. I guess it boiled to down to the following:
All in all I think it was certainly well worth the effort (by the late Taylor Scott IIRC?) to scrounge for and expedite the shipment of Limas because you never know when you might need the extra capability (in war I guess you want to have all the advantages that you can have up your sleeve). It must have been an additional psychological factor acting on the Argentines and it did result in a small number of additional kills. Apart from the above two, I can't recall from memory any other shootdown that would not probably have occured with the 9Golf as well.
- Increased range (this probably allowed Penfold to take the long shot that he did and the second case I assume is the 8 June engagement in which hmmm...you know who
shot a very long shot at a 15ft(?) flying Skyhawk which IIRC crashed on land (he had almost gotten to the coast on his way to escape when he was hit and crashed on shore. I recall one of Dave Morgan's accounts in which he said IIRC that he remembers looking down after he went up through the horizon to clear the engagement area and seeing the Sidewinder streaking towards its target and and a parallel mirror image of its smoke trail a few feet below mirroring on the sea surface looking a bit like a torpedo! DAB Smith I think had said that they couldn't differentiate a definite hit from the explosion of the crash because everything occured mere feet above the surface and the missile detonation and subsequent crash seemed to merge into one) - Seeker head that may have worked slightly better at extremely low altitudes
- Reliability - only one of Clive Morrell's Sidewinders seemed to have gone stupid and failed to launch, then launched of its own. I don't think however that the AIM-9G was any less reliable, just maybe more sensitive to low altitude heat 'distractions'.
All in all I think it was certainly well worth the effort (by the late Taylor Scott IIRC?) to scrounge for and expedite the shipment of Limas because you never know when you might need the extra capability (in war I guess you want to have all the advantages that you can have up your sleeve). It must have been an additional psychological factor acting on the Argentines and it did result in a small number of additional kills. Apart from the above two, I can't recall from memory any other shootdown that would not probably have occured with the 9Golf as well.
Thread Starter
Great point! The answer to which I don't know! Sharkey Ward certainly claims to have 'let the world know' of the excellent early results of the SHAR versus some top fighters/pilots like the 527th Agressors (USAF), the F-15Eagles to name a few but I don't know if the Argentinians were in the know through deliberate Brit psych-ops or through any 'black' avenues!
..yes because if our pilots were concerned about the potential performance of their adversaries (skill / experience / aircraft / weapons) and planned and fought accordingly then the Argentinians would have been entering the battle with similar thoughts in mind.
I of course have absolutely no idea as to which side would have had the most up to date and reliable intelligence as to what the other sides capabilities were - but if the G (as I understand it that was the Sidewinder model we 'should' have had) had a certain performance does it explain in any way how the Argentinians fought - supposing they had no idea that we had L with different capability....?
I of course have absolutely no idea as to which side would have had the most up to date and reliable intelligence as to what the other sides capabilities were - but if the G (as I understand it that was the Sidewinder model we 'should' have had) had a certain performance does it explain in any way how the Argentinians fought - supposing they had no idea that we had L with different capability....?
Thread Starter
Good point. I guess Edmund's contactsmight help here
I believe judging from the published stuff out there that there is a general hype that apparently worked on the Argentines and that is the VIFFing/AIM-9L threat. Now I don't know how accurate such statements are and I think it maybe the case of people confusing hindsight with reality; and the reality might be that the Argentines may not indeed have known of the existence of the Lima version. Having said that I'm sure it won't be difficult or won't take long to find out...in addition at least one engagement might rouse suspicion and that is the 1 May Thomas head on merge with the two Mirages. He did not acquire them head-on with his all aspect missile and I believe Ward in his book (speculates?) that they were not in reheat (afterburner) or that they had throttled way back? So it is likely that they (Argentinians) were very aware of the Lima threat. But it might just be that they were conserving on fuel and entered the pre-merge without having it on. In any case it would be a good pre-merge practice to reduce one's IR signature for potential missile locks (which may not necessarily come from the bogey you see head-on but rather from the unseen one who might be working his way around you as it happened in this case with Flt Lt Barton hooking around the back of them and taking the rear shot).
I believe judging from the published stuff out there that there is a general hype that apparently worked on the Argentines and that is the VIFFing/AIM-9L threat. Now I don't know how accurate such statements are and I think it maybe the case of people confusing hindsight with reality; and the reality might be that the Argentines may not indeed have known of the existence of the Lima version. Having said that I'm sure it won't be difficult or won't take long to find out...in addition at least one engagement might rouse suspicion and that is the 1 May Thomas head on merge with the two Mirages. He did not acquire them head-on with his all aspect missile and I believe Ward in his book (speculates?) that they were not in reheat (afterburner) or that they had throttled way back? So it is likely that they (Argentinians) were very aware of the Lima threat. But it might just be that they were conserving on fuel and entered the pre-merge without having it on. In any case it would be a good pre-merge practice to reduce one's IR signature for potential missile locks (which may not necessarily come from the bogey you see head-on but rather from the unseen one who might be working his way around you as it happened in this case with Flt Lt Barton hooking around the back of them and taking the rear shot).
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Pre Merge Burners
Having worked with the USAF since 80 up untill 05 I remember that it was always a call from our American friends to call burner prior to the merge. Now with the Argentine AF/Navy being trained/influenced by USN/USAF then such a practice would obviously be carried over.
As for Fuel conservation the Dagger/Mirage was not AAR capable and so would therefore be at its "Combat" limits over the Falklands. So maybe "Burner" was not a luxury they could afford pre merge, especially if it was needed during the fight or to exit the fight.
As for Fuel conservation the Dagger/Mirage was not AAR capable and so would therefore be at its "Combat" limits over the Falklands. So maybe "Burner" was not a luxury they could afford pre merge, especially if it was needed during the fight or to exit the fight.
Last edited by trap one; 5th Nov 2008 at 21:06.
Suspicion breeds confidence
Another interesting anomaly was the difference in opinion between the two squadrons on CAP Patrol height. 801 choosing low level, 800 choosing medium level. Both had equally good reasons for their choice. I tend to think that both were correct and complimentary, but I'd be interested in hearing other views.
Load Toad wrote
Argentine Boeing 707s were intercepted by SHARs as the Task Force headed towards the Falklands. It wouldn't have escaped the notice of the Argentines of the variant of Sidewinder carried.
From
:.DintelGID. Espiando a la Task Force
Quick question from an uninformed civvy.
Did the Argentinians know that 'we' had the L version of Sidewinder?
Did the Argentinians know that 'we' had the L version of Sidewinder?
From
:.DintelGID. Espiando a la Task Force