Military Restricted Airspace
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Why oh why would I wanna be anywhere else?
Posts: 1,305
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Military Restricted Airspace
Perth in Western Australia is surrounded by restricted military airspace because of RAAF Pearce. In a basically empty State which is many, many times the size of the UK, the RAAF (and RAN) ties up huge areas close by the main operating base of Pearce. No such thing as a MATZ - they can't seem to operate without an exclusion area the size of Germany.
Most of the time these areas are unused but, nevertheless, have blanket restrictions between various height bands during normal working hours.
By and large if a private flyer wants access to these areas a quick phone call to the number listed in ERSA (the Approach Supervisor) elicits a clearance and the private world therefore manages to co-exist relatively well with the military.
However, every so often one comes across a numpty who is a fully paid up member of the 'flying prevention branch' who seems to be afraid of their own shadow and refuses to give a clearance just 'in case' a military aircraft might want to transit the area during working hours.
Such a case occurred today. I wanted access to a very small portion of a restricted area just beyond the boundary for about 10 - 15 minutes. No. Not a chance. I actually live in this area and counted one - yes, one - aircraft that transitted the area the whole day and that was well outside the times that I had requested.
I'm an ex RAF officer and well acquainted with the 'exigiencies of the Service' but this fecking numpty takes the biscuit. All he had to do was to chalk up my callsign, time of operation, area and height and give me radio permission when I was 10 minutes from the boundary. Difficult? It seemed to be for this guy.
Is it really that difficult to allow private flyers to operate in military areas?
Rant over.
I'm not sure whether this thread belongs in the Military Forum, ATC, or Private Flying - Mods please feel free to shift to where you think it belongs.
Most of the time these areas are unused but, nevertheless, have blanket restrictions between various height bands during normal working hours.
By and large if a private flyer wants access to these areas a quick phone call to the number listed in ERSA (the Approach Supervisor) elicits a clearance and the private world therefore manages to co-exist relatively well with the military.
However, every so often one comes across a numpty who is a fully paid up member of the 'flying prevention branch' who seems to be afraid of their own shadow and refuses to give a clearance just 'in case' a military aircraft might want to transit the area during working hours.
Such a case occurred today. I wanted access to a very small portion of a restricted area just beyond the boundary for about 10 - 15 minutes. No. Not a chance. I actually live in this area and counted one - yes, one - aircraft that transitted the area the whole day and that was well outside the times that I had requested.
I'm an ex RAF officer and well acquainted with the 'exigiencies of the Service' but this fecking numpty takes the biscuit. All he had to do was to chalk up my callsign, time of operation, area and height and give me radio permission when I was 10 minutes from the boundary. Difficult? It seemed to be for this guy.
Is it really that difficult to allow private flyers to operate in military areas?
Rant over.
I'm not sure whether this thread belongs in the Military Forum, ATC, or Private Flying - Mods please feel free to shift to where you think it belongs.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: bored
Posts: 532
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If your experience is typical of Australian military aviation, and they really do need a dedicated airspace the size of Germany to operate, then they can't be of much use contributing to modern conflicts where civil and military traffic has to co-exist. Maybe they are planning for an invasion by NZ.
Three nine line
Why not head East? most days you'll have the GAFA all to youself
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Victoria
Age: 62
Posts: 984
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What BentStick said.
When I went through Pearce (22 years ago
) the restricted areas were much bigger.
Siseman, I'm sure you'd be the first to bleat if you saw a PC9 piloted by a testosterone fuelled solo student whistling past your wing tip.
When I went through Pearce (22 years ago
) the restricted areas were much bigger.Siseman, I'm sure you'd be the first to bleat if you saw a PC9 piloted by a testosterone fuelled solo student whistling past your wing tip.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Nomadic
Posts: 1,343
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Ex RAF guy. Australia has never had a civvie hit (or be hit by) a Tornado sharing the same airspace - unlike the so called Mil Low Fly system in the UK.
...maybe that is why. Pearce has existed for a long time (with a similar airspace structure), and there is a lot of other parts of WA to fly in, suggest you go there.
...maybe that is why. Pearce has existed for a long time (with a similar airspace structure), and there is a lot of other parts of WA to fly in, suggest you go there.
And let's compare the air traffic per square km in aus to the UK shall we? (How do I do that head banging against a brick wall smiley?)
Although to be fair, if the space is available, why not use it? It's a bit of a pain in the arse if the restricted area happens to be sitting right across your transit though!
Although to be fair, if the space is available, why not use it? It's a bit of a pain in the arse if the restricted area happens to be sitting right across your transit though!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Why oh why would I wanna be anywhere else?
Posts: 1,305
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
LJR - I try not to use restricted airspace if I can help it. I normally keep well clear of any requirement to go near it. I am ex RAF and know the score. But occasionally I have a requirement to go into or through some of the areas. It does not take a great deal of effort to control a civvy movement that is going to take 10 to 15 minutes tops in a very small part of the airspace every once in a while.
But perhaps this numpty jobsworth just couldn't be arsed or sincerely believes that all civilians can be ignored, or even thinks that the military pilots aren't up to see and avoid - whatever, it hasn't done the cause of military operations too much good.
But perhaps this numpty jobsworth just couldn't be arsed or sincerely believes that all civilians can be ignored, or even thinks that the military pilots aren't up to see and avoid - whatever, it hasn't done the cause of military operations too much good.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Chester, UK
Age: 63
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Siseman, I'm sure you'd be the first to bleat if you saw a PC9 piloted by a testosterone fuelled solo student whistling past your wing tip.
testosterone fuelled Singaporean solo student
Riigggghhhhhhhtttttttt...... That'll be Rootenant Lay Di Boy trying to grow a pair?
Tooooo much time spent down `Bugis` street ,Beags, on trucking `lay-overs`......toooo many oxymorons as well,testosterone,lady-boys ,etc??
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Oz
Posts: 282
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Siseman,
You do realise that some restricted airspace off the coast there is used by ships and fast movers when they play at trying to kill each other, not to mention the very real threat of a sailor on the other end of a .50 cal doing a gunnery exercise- Heard a story of someone going to investigate red flares out at sea only to find they were in fact tracer.
Anyway, I'm sure the navy send you a copy of the fleet exercise program personally so you know which bits are active...
You do realise that some restricted airspace off the coast there is used by ships and fast movers when they play at trying to kill each other, not to mention the very real threat of a sailor on the other end of a .50 cal doing a gunnery exercise-
Heard a story of someone going to investigate red flares out at sea only to find they were in fact tracer.Anyway, I'm sure the navy send you a copy of the fleet exercise program personally so you know which bits are active...
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Why oh why would I wanna be anywhere else?
Posts: 1,305
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
FFS! Let me say this r e a l l y s l o w l y so that the hard of understanding might get aboard.
I have flown in this area regularly for quite a number of years. I am ex RAF and appreciate the importance of military restricted airspace. I am fully aware of NOTAMs which tell me which bits of restricted airspace are active and for what reasons. I live on the ground under the said piece of restricted airspace and am well aware of RAAF PC9s and Hawks, Singaporean S221s, as well as occasional RAF, USAF and USN visitors buzzing around the skies at a fast rate of knots. In short - I am a "professional" pilot that is very, very keen on seeing quite a few more birthdays.
All I wanted was 10 to 15 minutes in a piece of restricted airspace which is generally used only for transitting from the great wide spaces of Western Australia back to RAAF Pearce. The RAAF are generally pretty good about letting those of us with a genuine reason to have access. It should not have been beyond the wit of man (in particular this feckwit of a flt lt area supervisor) to chalk my details on the ops board and vector anyone who might, just might, have been due in the area at about that time to bugger off 2 miles to the north or at least tell them to see and avoid. I had a job to do. I couldn't do it.
Normally there is no problem whatsoever and on every previous occasion (presumably when I have spoken to the SAC on duty who actually does the job) permission has been granted, I've called up approach before entering the area and have, when necessary been given a squawk code just to be on the safe side.
However, this particular feckwit must either have been afraid of his own shadow and unable to make a decision or he had a down on civilian flyers. Either way, it's a crock.
Now, apart from the said feckwit coming on here and giving an explanation for his decision, does anyone else have any trite comments like oldpinger?
I have flown in this area regularly for quite a number of years. I am ex RAF and appreciate the importance of military restricted airspace. I am fully aware of NOTAMs which tell me which bits of restricted airspace are active and for what reasons. I live on the ground under the said piece of restricted airspace and am well aware of RAAF PC9s and Hawks, Singaporean S221s, as well as occasional RAF, USAF and USN visitors buzzing around the skies at a fast rate of knots. In short - I am a "professional" pilot that is very, very keen on seeing quite a few more birthdays.
All I wanted was 10 to 15 minutes in a piece of restricted airspace which is generally used only for transitting from the great wide spaces of Western Australia back to RAAF Pearce. The RAAF are generally pretty good about letting those of us with a genuine reason to have access. It should not have been beyond the wit of man (in particular this feckwit of a flt lt area supervisor) to chalk my details on the ops board and vector anyone who might, just might, have been due in the area at about that time to bugger off 2 miles to the north or at least tell them to see and avoid. I had a job to do. I couldn't do it.
Normally there is no problem whatsoever and on every previous occasion (presumably when I have spoken to the SAC on duty who actually does the job) permission has been granted, I've called up approach before entering the area and have, when necessary been given a squawk code just to be on the safe side.
However, this particular feckwit must either have been afraid of his own shadow and unable to make a decision or he had a down on civilian flyers. Either way, it's a crock.
Now, apart from the said feckwit coming on here and giving an explanation for his decision, does anyone else have any trite comments like oldpinger?
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Victoria
Age: 62
Posts: 984
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
oooooOOOOOooooo!
Did you have ALL the information available to you, or just what you could see from that particular corner of the airspace? You state that Pearce ATC generally don't have a problem with your operations, but on this particular day they did.
Have you considered the possibility that said feckwit may have had a genuine reason to keep you out of the airspace? He/she had a much bigger picture to deal with.
And no, said feckwit DOES NOT have to justify his/her decision to you regardless of whether or not you think it's a crock or not.
But as an ex-RAF pilot you'd know that...........wouldn't you?
Yours in triteness.
Did you have ALL the information available to you, or just what you could see from that particular corner of the airspace? You state that Pearce ATC generally don't have a problem with your operations, but on this particular day they did.
Have you considered the possibility that said feckwit may have had a genuine reason to keep you out of the airspace? He/she had a much bigger picture to deal with.
And no, said feckwit DOES NOT have to justify his/her decision to you regardless of whether or not you think it's a crock or not.
But as an ex-RAF pilot you'd know that...........wouldn't you?
Yours in triteness.
Never had any real problems transiting mil airspace on the east coast, even when its busy. Its usually easier if you let them know well in advance.
I have seen many near misses in mil flying; Two Macchis on take off passed about 100 feet below me at Nowra (Husbands DZ) just after exiting the para door of a Herc (parachuting), that ended in a very bad feet apart landing.
Also, a pair of F-111s passed scarily close at scary speed and full A/B as our 'Bou entered the zone at Amberley in 2001. I have heard of some close calls in Pearce airspace, so the danger is there.
Some controllers will let you through, some will not in the same circumstances. I guess some are more competent than others. Not much you can do about it unfortunately
I have seen many near misses in mil flying; Two Macchis on take off passed about 100 feet below me at Nowra (Husbands DZ) just after exiting the para door of a Herc (parachuting), that ended in a very bad feet apart landing.
Also, a pair of F-111s passed scarily close at scary speed and full A/B as our 'Bou entered the zone at Amberley in 2001. I have heard of some close calls in Pearce airspace, so the danger is there.
Some controllers will let you through, some will not in the same circumstances. I guess some are more competent than others. Not much you can do about it unfortunately
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Why oh why would I wanna be anywhere else?
Posts: 1,305
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
minigundiplomat - Toodyay (Coondle) - and we don't see nearly enough low flying over here!
airborne - no neighbours near! In any event I've probably seem 'em all!!
airborne - no neighbours near! In any event I've probably seem 'em all!!