Ballsy or what?!!
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Ballsy or what?!!
Am confused (doesn't take much to do this). Was returning to Dubai last night when we heard an ASCOT callsign initiate a diversion to Abu Dhabi for technical reasons. When asked his endurance he stated that it was an hour and a quarter whereupon the controller advised him that he might have to hold prior to his approach and how long could he do this for? The answer promptly came back as 'an hour and a quarter'! Am I missing something? Have just spent 10000 hours on the understanding that endurance was time to donkeys quitting and was somewhat different to the time that you were prepared to hold for! Please enlighten me. Am operating to civvie rules so this might have a bearing on the matter.
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Only a tea boy here but my understanding is that endurance is "till it all goes very quiet" 
Suspect he was quoting time to minima's but fully expect a Sky God to give you the definitive
Suspect he was quoting time to minima's but fully expect a Sky God to give you the definitive
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Endurance is exactly that.
It is how long until the engines stop due to lack of fuel.
That is an emergency situation. It's not an ATC or Flt planning consideration.
PAN, Mayday or diversion is justified.
It is how long until the engines stop due to lack of fuel.
That is an emergency situation. It's not an ATC or Flt planning consideration.
PAN, Mayday or diversion is justified.
Avoid imitations
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This might be a difference in terminology, between Civilian and Military training.
During my 18 yrs endurance meant till the engines quit. Then it's a Martin Baker letdown if you're lucky.
I would certainly include some fuel for the part between the hold and the runway, though!
During my 18 yrs endurance meant till the engines quit. Then it's a Martin Baker letdown if you're lucky.
I would certainly include some fuel for the part between the hold and the runway, though!
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Reminds me of a story from the 70’s.
Middle Eastern student at BFTS Linton declares an emergency.
ATC enquires, “What is your endurance?”
Student replies, “Sun Life of Canada”
Middle Eastern student at BFTS Linton declares an emergency.
ATC enquires, “What is your endurance?”
Student replies, “Sun Life of Canada”
I'm with ShyTq, endurance is when you have to glide/autorotate/bang out or whatever because the background noise is no longer there. There is box for it on the flightplan with guidance in the yellow book.
SL
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Spheroid
Methinks you're talking spheroids. In my 40 years of flying, endurance was always to empty tanks, both military and civilian, but maybe I got it wrong all those years and taught my error to hundreds of trainees.
Whoever is right, there's a serious misunderstanding by some that really needs clearing up - I'm sure there's someone here with the appropriate manuals handy - I've retired.
rts
Methinks you're talking spheroids. In my 40 years of flying, endurance was always to empty tanks, both military and civilian, but maybe I got it wrong all those years and taught my error to hundreds of trainees.
Whoever is right, there's a serious misunderstanding by some that really needs clearing up - I'm sure there's someone here with the appropriate manuals handy - I've retired.
rts
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Since Linton, many many years ago, and after thousands of hours I have always understood endurance to be the point at which you fell out of the sky. I think it's fair to say that's the RAF understanding of the word.
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Current RAF teaching:
'Endurance is the length of time that you can remain airborne based on the amount of fuel available until the tanks run dry and the engines flame out.'
'Safe Endurance is the length of time you can remain airborne until the fuel remaining reaches the minimum threshold fuel figure.'
'Endurance is the length of time that you can remain airborne based on the amount of fuel available until the tanks run dry and the engines flame out.'
'Safe Endurance is the length of time you can remain airborne until the fuel remaining reaches the minimum threshold fuel figure.'
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Ummmm.. 'endurance' is just that - to tanks empty. In what is probably long oudated parlance, it's when ALERFA becomes DISTRESSFA - i,e., the aeroplane can no longer be in the sky (unless very briefly, with a reassuring swishing sound outside the window familiar to any glider pilots amongst us).
If it's not that, how in the hell do you give an 'endurance' figure to ATC without giving them chapter and verse about your diversion options?
In 40+ years in the business, this is the first time I've ever heard anyone say that endurance is anything but to tanks dry. That's what gets written on the ICAO flight plan.
If it's not that, how in the hell do you give an 'endurance' figure to ATC without giving them chapter and verse about your diversion options?
In 40+ years in the business, this is the first time I've ever heard anyone say that endurance is anything but to tanks dry. That's what gets written on the ICAO flight plan.
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Mmmmnice,
RN helos tend to use Prudent Limit of Endurance (PLE), which is the point you reach MLA. If you bust MLA you should then be declaring a PAN. This can be made more restrictive for more inexperienced crews/poor weather etc by imposing an additional RAMP fuel on top of MLA.
There's also MIFF (Minimum Indicated Fuel for Flight) which if you go below, it will shortly get very quiet up top, although we don't quote a "time to MIFF".
"Time to Divert" lets the ATC guys know how long they can mess you around in the circuit before you're going to b*gger off and land somewhere else.
The only difference between land or sea ops (besides getting wet) is when overdue action would be instigated - considerably sooner if you're over the sea.
RN helos tend to use Prudent Limit of Endurance (PLE), which is the point you reach MLA. If you bust MLA you should then be declaring a PAN. This can be made more restrictive for more inexperienced crews/poor weather etc by imposing an additional RAMP fuel on top of MLA.
There's also MIFF (Minimum Indicated Fuel for Flight) which if you go below, it will shortly get very quiet up top, although we don't quote a "time to MIFF".
"Time to Divert" lets the ATC guys know how long they can mess you around in the circuit before you're going to b*gger off and land somewhere else.
The only difference between land or sea ops (besides getting wet) is when overdue action would be instigated - considerably sooner if you're over the sea.
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ballsy or what?!!
Sounds like a consensus of opinion has evolved that endurance is to tanks dry whomsoever you work for?! Hope that the ASCOT pilot involved reads this! The Equivocator mentioned that his first answer was probably an off the cuff reply followed, later, by the considered reply. Maybe, but it sounded very much like my teenage daughters attitude on occasion - 'Ive already said an hour and a quarter; weren't you listening?!! Duh!!' (You all must have experience of this!).
BTW, is 'Rodthesod' formerly of MASUAS?
BTW, is 'Rodthesod' formerly of MASUAS?
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No Consensus!
In my 22 years in the RN, during the days of JSP 318 and separate coloured pages, 'Endurance' was always defined as time to MLA (Minimum Landing Allowance) as stated by Spheroid.
Time till the engines went quiet was defined as 'Total Endurance'. IIRC this was a 'known' issue when RAF/Army helos were due to embark and a certain ammount of clarification used to go on.
Not sure what the situation is now that its JHC and JSP 500!!
Time till the engines went quiet was defined as 'Total Endurance'. IIRC this was a 'known' issue when RAF/Army helos were due to embark and a certain ammount of clarification used to go on.
Not sure what the situation is now that its JHC and JSP 500!!
