A-A Refulling + AEW;
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A-A Refulling + AEW;
Well there seem to be a few S3 Vikings going around cheap at the moment, wouldn't they with radar, buddy tanks and a few dozen Sea Harriers be a lot less expensive ( if able to bypass BAe accountants ) & more effective than F-35's ?
Sorry, G.T!
Sorry, G.T!
Last edited by Double Zero; 13th Jun 2008 at 20:25.
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You want reasons do you?
Well alright then, the answer is no because they wouldn't be alot less expensive and most certainly would be less effective.
If you can't understand point 1 then you have no comprehension of major aircraft procurement programs and if you can't understand point 2 then I wonder what colour the sky is in your world....
Well alright then, the answer is no because they wouldn't be alot less expensive and most certainly would be less effective.
If you can't understand point 1 then you have no comprehension of major aircraft procurement programs and if you can't understand point 2 then I wonder what colour the sky is in your world....
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Please re-arrange these words in a well known phrase...
Ok Artyhug ( avoided the temptation to add an ' F ' ) , I put it forward as a not very serious idea, for discussion; if name-calling is your level of argument, rather than actually considering & mentioning pro's & cons, I'm probably not the only person here who's unimpressed !
'Daft' ideas are usually worth a brief mention; I don't mind appearing dense, and there's always the chance one day someone will come up with a goer - thats how we got so far in the last 100 years isn't it ?
Don't bother replying that you don't give a hoot if I'm impressed or not, I think we can work that one out;
Yours,
Kermit.
'Daft' ideas are usually worth a brief mention; I don't mind appearing dense, and there's always the chance one day someone will come up with a goer - thats how we got so far in the last 100 years isn't it ?
Don't bother replying that you don't give a hoot if I'm impressed or not, I think we can work that one out;
Yours,
Kermit.
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I put it forward as a not very serious idea, for discussion ...
That you did, Mr. Zero, so we'll let you take the kickoff. You started this discussion.
Please explain to us why those old airplanes would be better than newer technology. Make the case.
That you did, Mr. Zero, so we'll let you take the kickoff. You started this discussion.
Please explain to us why those old airplanes would be better than newer technology. Make the case.
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Certainly, Mr.Elmo.
I was thinking that as the 'wish list' is the F-35 ( whatever type ) and an AEW / COD type a/c , ranging from probably Merlin to some hope Osprey...
The F-35 has major engine & other issues, let alone price.
The Osprey still is regarded a bit dodgy in some quarters, + hideous price tag.
The Merlin ( a poitcallly named aircraft wihn absoutey NO relation to the enengine which arguably saved me from typing in Gernan noow
When is it REALLY likely we'll ever get all the shiny new kit, in working order, on CVF ?
It strikes me that as an interim - and we know how long 'interims' last - the S3 is a versatile aircraft, higher performance, and could buddy re-fuel Harrier 2+'s ( not Seajets as I erroneously first said ). Obviously AEW kit may need to be nailed on ( a 5 minute job surely ! ) but a handy plane apart from the inability to vertically insert people in odd places - intentionally anyway.
I realise the S3 might rather like a trendy catapult & whatever & similar arrestor, and that IS expensive, but we're told the ability to fit is designed into CVF, and anyway it would be handy cross decking with other navies...
I think the case for Harrier 2+ ( right now ) a lot stronger than that for S3, but as I say, just a thought.
Out of e-mail land for a while, so while I no doubt get the P taken, silence doesn't mean a white flag !
I was thinking that as the 'wish list' is the F-35 ( whatever type ) and an AEW / COD type a/c , ranging from probably Merlin to some hope Osprey...
The F-35 has major engine & other issues, let alone price.
The Osprey still is regarded a bit dodgy in some quarters, + hideous price tag.
The Merlin ( a poitcallly named aircraft wihn absoutey NO relation to the enengine which arguably saved me from typing in Gernan noow
When is it REALLY likely we'll ever get all the shiny new kit, in working order, on CVF ?
It strikes me that as an interim - and we know how long 'interims' last - the S3 is a versatile aircraft, higher performance, and could buddy re-fuel Harrier 2+'s ( not Seajets as I erroneously first said ). Obviously AEW kit may need to be nailed on ( a 5 minute job surely ! ) but a handy plane apart from the inability to vertically insert people in odd places - intentionally anyway.
I realise the S3 might rather like a trendy catapult & whatever & similar arrestor, and that IS expensive, but we're told the ability to fit is designed into CVF, and anyway it would be handy cross decking with other navies...
I think the case for Harrier 2+ ( right now ) a lot stronger than that for S3, but as I say, just a thought.
Out of e-mail land for a while, so while I no doubt get the P taken, silence doesn't mean a white flag !
Last edited by Double Zero; 24th Jun 2008 at 12:00.
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I struck me that as an interim - and we know how long 'interims' last - the S3 is a versatile aircraft, higher performance, and could buddy re-fuel Harrier 2+'s ( not Seajets as I erroneously first said ). Obviously AEW kit may need to be nailed on ( a 5 minute job surely ! ) but a handy plane apart from the inability to vertically insert people in odd places - intentionally anyway.
) at a time when defence is having to justify every penny maintaining current capabilities.Exactly what planet are you on DZ?
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MM
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Mind you - you could always get BAE to run you up an AEW based upon the soon to be spare Nimrod 2000 airframes - I'm sure that it will be easy to do and not cost too much...... It would be a shame to see them go to waste.
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While acknowledging 'sarcasm is the lowest form of wit' no-one here seems to have actually answered my hypothetical question.
To make it perfectly clear,No AEW or other system is a 5 minute job; anyonone who has 'hands on ' would have got the the joke !!!
N0 - one so far has answered my orinnal set-up;
Trendy catapults, arrestors as suit...
To make it perfectly clear,No AEW or other system is a 5 minute job; anyonone who has 'hands on ' would have got the the joke !!!
N0 - one so far has answered my orinnal set-up;
Trendy catapults, arrestors as suit...
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Well,
we seem to afford politicians and budget fiddlers/ bean counters aplenty while our soldiers are actually putting their lives not careers on the neck - but they are unlikely to vote tory,- if they do it will be only for ' a chang & they will be sadly disappointed if they survive & remember their advanced - i.e. up to date - vehicle programme was 'put on hold' in order to fund the CVF - the real villians here are politicians- of any flavour, - remember Thatcher was about to sell off HMS Invicible until it saved her political arse -
'We' seem able to come with an instant £50 billion for banks, while our soldiers are left with crap vehichles while we talk about CVF, JSF some long distance -i.e. beyond voting distance ahead - & I have doubt any change would make any difference...
OUR services have a reputution for 'making the best with whatever crap they are given'
That doesn't work in the 21'st Century...
we seem to afford politicians and budget fiddlers/ bean counters aplenty while our soldiers are actually putting their lives not careers on the neck - but they are unlikely to vote tory,- if they do it will be only for ' a chang & they will be sadly disappointed if they survive & remember their advanced - i.e. up to date - vehicle programme was 'put on hold' in order to fund the CVF - the real villians here are politicians- of any flavour, - remember Thatcher was about to sell off HMS Invicible until it saved her political arse -
'We' seem able to come with an instant £50 billion for banks, while our soldiers are left with crap vehichles while we talk about CVF, JSF some long distance -i.e. beyond voting distance ahead - & I have doubt any change would make any difference...
OUR services have a reputution for 'making the best with whatever crap they are given'
That doesn't work in the 21'st Century...
Last edited by Double Zero; 24th Jun 2008 at 12:59.
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I certainly didn't mention fitting radar to GR7/9's - the Harrier 2+ would be in a different role.
Maybe that squadron could be based at Yeovilton as an ongoing FAA base before ship deployments ?!
I am not an FAA pilot but have read history...
Maybe that squadron could be based at Yeovilton as an ongoing FAA base before ship deployments ?!
I am not an FAA pilot but have read history...
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Let's get this straight. You are proposing to take a 30+year old aircraft that has already had a full service life and re-work it to incorporate modern systems. And you think that this idea will be simpler and cheaper than building a new aircraft.
Do you work for BAE Systems?
Your second proposal is to go to the expense of changing the design of a brand new ship to incorporate necessary the launch/recovery systems to enable your first idea to work.
You really do work for them, don't you?
To cap these master-strokes you are then going to give your £multi-billion new vessel a primary weapons system based on an out-of-production 25 year old design, whose only advantage is the ability to do without the launch/recovery equipment that you have already made necessary by proceeding with step 1.
Now you've given yourself away, you actually work for the MoD. In an IPT.
You can expect only sarcastic responses when you make proposals that are better suited to the letters page of Air Forces Monthly.
Do you work for BAE Systems?
Your second proposal is to go to the expense of changing the design of a brand new ship to incorporate necessary the launch/recovery systems to enable your first idea to work.
You really do work for them, don't you?
To cap these master-strokes you are then going to give your £multi-billion new vessel a primary weapons system based on an out-of-production 25 year old design, whose only advantage is the ability to do without the launch/recovery equipment that you have already made necessary by proceeding with step 1.
Now you've given yourself away, you actually work for the MoD. In an IPT.
You can expect only sarcastic responses when you make proposals that are better suited to the letters page of Air Forces Monthly.
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Hello, hello, anyone?
Isn't there supposed to be a moderator to suppress this sort of cobblers from Prune? Maybe we should start a web site called 'Jim'll Fix It' where deluded children ask a dodgy-looking bloke in a shell-suit to make 'special' things happen for them?
OR WE COULD JUST GROW UP!!!!!!!!!!!!
OR WE COULD JUST GROW UP!!!!!!!!!!!!
OR WE COULD JUST GROW UP!!!!!!!!!!!!
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" Cobblers & Grow up " maybe,
meanwhile our fleet is without air defence, and CVF is vaunted as being able to take on the aforesaid additions.
From being a discussion point, this has degenerated to a slanging match - well I have been involved in aircraft development / trials including the Harrier 1 & 2 & Hawk, probably while those slanging me were still in their nappies, and it's a sad comment that I've seen/heard twice from the 'cream' Red Arrows that they think their Hawks were built at Warton !
So forgive me for an attempt at an intelligent discussion " you're suggesting we fit radars on our GR7/9 ?! " , should have known better,
and certainly expected higher.
DZ
meanwhile our fleet is without air defence, and CVF is vaunted as being able to take on the aforesaid additions.
From being a discussion point, this has degenerated to a slanging match - well I have been involved in aircraft development / trials including the Harrier 1 & 2 & Hawk, probably while those slanging me were still in their nappies, and it's a sad comment that I've seen/heard twice from the 'cream' Red Arrows that they think their Hawks were built at Warton !
So forgive me for an attempt at an intelligent discussion " you're suggesting we fit radars on our GR7/9 ?! " , should have known better,
and certainly expected higher.
DZ
