A400M engine - hey, it works!

[Algy]

Stand well back...

[Tyres O'Flaherty]

Look at the size of the prop on that beasty

That's going to shift some air

[mr fish]

put four on that herky and turn it into a fighter (maybe)!!!

[SirToppamHat]

Caption Competition

"Yes, Chief, the new engine looks good and sounds good, but airframe keeps yawing to the right - any idea what's causing it?"

"Err, requirements drift?"

Sorry, wrong thread - I'll get me coat.

STH

[Green Flash]

Bl00dy hell! I'm not surprised they've got it clamped to the ground. Jees, that looks a bit meaty. Hope they don't firewall it or it'll rip the wing off! Poor old Snoopy will be wondering whats hit her.

[Madbob]

Algy

Here's a comparison of the predicted performance of the A400 versus those venerable workhorses of the air which in design terms date from 50 (yes 50!) years ago. The max payload of the A400 is 82,000 lbs, C 133 110,000 lbs, Belfast 80,000 lbs and the Herc (C130 H) 45,000 lbs. Max cruise speeds are very similar, 350 mph, 359 mph, 358 mph and 336 mph respectively.

The range of the A400 with a 20 tonne payload (btw this woul be a full load for a Herc) is projected at 3,753 nm for the A400 and with 23.5 tonnes the C133 could go 3,560 nm, the Belfast could do about 3,600 miles and the Herc only 2,050 nms.

The A400 has 4 x 11,000 shp, the C 133 4 x 7,500 shp, the Belfast 4 x 5,730 shp and the C 130 4 x 4,300 shp.

The real question is what would each aeroplane cost to build in today's prices and whether the A400 really is giving us value for money for what might seem a modest improvement in performance.

General characteristics - A400M

• Crew: 3-4 (2 pilots, 3rd optional, 1 loadmaster)
• Capacity: 37,000 kg (82,000 lb), 116 fully equipped troops / paratroops, up to 66 stretchers accompanied by 25 medical personnel
• Length: 43.8 m (143 ft 8 in)
• Wingspan: 42.4 m (139 ft 1 in)
• Height: 14.6 m (47 ft 11 in)
• Empty weight: 70 tonnes (154,000 lb)
• Max takeoff weight: 130 tonnes (287,000 lb)

• Total Internal Fuel: 46.7 tonnes (103,000 lb)
• Max. Landing Weight: 114 tonnes (251,000 lb)
• Max. Payload: 37 tonnes (82,000 lb))

• Powerplant: 4× EuroProp International TP400-D6[10] turboprop, 8,250 kW (11,000 hp) each

Performance

• Maximum speed: 300 knots CAS (560 km/h, 350 mph)
• Cruise speed:Mach 0.68 - 0.72 ()

• Initial Cruise Altitude: at MTOW: 9,000 m (29,000 ft)

• Range: at Max. payload: 3,300 km (1,782 nmi) (long range cruise speed; reserves as per MIL-C-5011A)
  • Range at 30-tonne payload: 4,800 km (2,592 nmi)
  • Range at 20-tonne payload: 6,950 km (3,753 nmi))
• Ferry range: 9,300 km (5,022 nmi)
• Service ceiling 11,300 m (37,000 ft)

• Tactical Takeoff Distance: 940 m (3 080 ft) (aircraft weight 100 tonnes, soft field, ISA, sea level)
• Tactical Landing Distance: 625 m (2 050 ft) (see above)
• Turning Radius (Ground): 28.6 m

General characteristics - C133 Cargomaster

• Crew: six (two pilots, two engineers, navigator, loadmaster)
• Capacity: Designed as a logistics transport, the C-133 carried only small numbers of passengers, usually associated with the cargo.
• Payload: 110,000 lb (50,000 kg)
• Length: 157 ft 6 in (48.0 m)
• Wingspan: 179 ft 8 in (54.8 m)
• Height: 48 ft 3 in (14.7 m)
• Wing area: 2,673.1 ft² (248.34 m²)
• Empty weight: 109,417 lb (49,631 kg)
• Loaded weight: 275,000 lb (125,000 kg)
• Max takeoff weight: 275,000 lb (C-133A) / 286,000 lb (C-133B) (125,000 kg (C-133A) / 130,000 kg (C-133B))
• Powerplant: 4× Pratt & Whitney T34-P-9W turboprops, 7,500 shp (5,586 kW) each
• * Cargo deck : 86 ft 10 in (26.47 m)

Performance

• Maximum speed: 312 kt (359 mph / 578 km/h)
• Cruise speed: 280 kt (322 mph / 519 km/h)
• Range: 3,560 nm with 52,000 lb (23,587 kg) payload (4,097 mi / 6,590 km)
• Service ceiling 32,300 ft (9,800 m)

General characteristics - Belfast C Mk 1

• Crew: Basic aircrew 4 (two pilots, engineer & navigator/radio operator) plus reserve crew
• Capacity: 11,750 cu. ft.
• Payload: 80,000 lb (36,288 kg)
• Length: 136 ft 5 in (41.70 m)
• Wingspan: 158 ft 10 in (48.1 m)
• Height: 47 ft (14.33 m)
• Wing area: 2,466 ft² (229.1 m²)
• Empty weight: 130,000 lb (59,020 kg)
• Max takeoff weight: 230,000 lb (104,300 kg)
• Powerplant: 4× Rolls-Royce Tyne R.Ty.12, Mk. 101 turboprops, Hawker Siddeley Dynamics 4/7000/fully-feathering airscrews of 16 ft. diam., 5,730 ehp (4,270 kW) each

Performance

• Cruise speed: 358 mph (576 km/h)
• Range: 5,200 miles (8,368 km) with capacity fuel load of 80,720 lb
• Service ceiling 30,000 ft (9,100 m)
• Rate of climb: 1,060 ft/min (323 m/min)
• Range with maximum payload: 970 miles (1,560 km)

General characteristics - C 130 H

• Crew: 4-6: at least 2 pilots,1 flight engineer (eliminated in the J variant, replaced by crew chief), and 1 loadmaster; additional loadmaster and navigator are usually part of the crew
• Capacity:
  
  • 92 passengers or
  • 64 airborne troops or
  • 74 litter patients with 2 medical personnel
• Payload: 45,000 lb (20,000 kg) including 2-3 Humvees or an M113 Armored Personnel Carrier
• Length: 97 ft 9 in (29.8 m)
• Wingspan: 132 ft 7 in (40.4 m)
• Height: 38 ft 3 in (11.6 m)
• Wing area: 1,745 ft² (162.1 m²)
• Empty weight: 83,000 lb (38,000 kg)
• Useful load: 72,000 lb (33,000 kg)
• Max takeoff weight: 155,000 lb (70,300 kg)
• Powerplant: 4× Allison T56-A-15turboprops, 4,300 shp (3,210 kW) each

Performance

• Maximum speed: 329 knots (379 mph, 610 km/h)
• Cruise speed: 292 knots (336 mph, 540 km/h)
• Range: 2,050 nm (2,360 mi, 3,800 km)
• Service ceiling 33,000 ft (10,000 m)

Whatever your feelings the sooner we get some new assets the better. Cracks in the wings of the "classic" Hercs, much abuse of the J's and with no replacements for operational losses the boys at Lyneham certainly get my sympathy.

I hope the new engine (and new prop) live up to expectations and no further delays are encountered by all concerned.

MB

[ARINC]

Great engine..pity the projects 2 years late and counting. The irony is Airbus have just sent the guy responsible for the A380 down to sort it out......

[Nopax,thanx]

But not the first time an eight-blade prop has been installed on a C-130...

http://www.edwards.af.mil/news/story...ryID=123089573

[Squirrel 41]

MB,

Very many thanks for this - I'd not thought of a Belfast v A400M comparison before and it looks very similar. However, I thought that the Belfast could carry a Cheiftan MBT - which implies a 60t (ish) load - something that the A400M can't do, putting it in the Super-Hercules rather than strat transport role group.

Grateful for Pprune setting me straight on this....

And v good to see the TP400 running (finally). Guess we can put the NK-12MV order on hold, then.....

S41

[Razor61]

Does anyone the clearance between the props and the fuselage of Snoopy?

[pjvr99]

six (6) inches

[BEagle]

Madbob - you do know the difference between CAS and TAS, I trust?

A400M having similar performance to a Belslow? I belive the geek expressions are YGTBSM and ROTFLMAO?

Love to see a Belslow try to reach M0.72 at F370. Or any other of the old relics with which you've compared the A400M.

Last encounter I had with a Belslow was in around 2002 when I heard one pottering along at around FL160 on its way back from Dakar to the UK. Hope they made it before scurvy broke out!

[Madbob]

BEagle

I do know the difference between IAS, TAS, CAS and Mach No. I used the mph figures as these were what dear old Wikipedia used which were in common to all four types.

I wouldn't for one minute compare a Belfast with an A400 without refererring to the HUGE disparity in engines. Just imagine what the difference would be if the Belfast had nearly double the thrust, 5,730 shp versus 11,000 from the A400's state of the art jobbies.

All I wanted to say was that in 50 years of ac and eng/prop design the additional performance gains are really not that significant.....

Call it nostalgia if you like but I can remember seeing the likes of Belfasts, Argosies, Andovers, Britannias, VC10's and even Hastings (115 Sqn?) wearing roundels, when the RAF still has a "full set of clubs" to play with. With more than 100 airframes available meant proper flexibility and allowed the movers to do more than one thing at a time, ie allow "tactical" ops and "strategic" ops simultaneously AND allow training to continue on the OCU's. Personnell also could be rotated between home and away postings.

MB

[Someone Different]

"six (6) inches" (pvjr99)

Ah, don't you love it when someone confidently states something......that's completely wrong!!

Nice one ;-)

[Green Flash]

And the correct clearance is ?

[Lou DeCrosse]

Ball park, roughly twice that.

Lou

[Green Flash]

Does anyone know when Snoopy is due to fly? It would certainly be something different for this years shows!

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

In fairness though, six inches is not always ... six inches

[Someone Different]

Aaaaa....aargh - Um, I have no idea what you mean, no - and it was cold, very cold indeed.......... Ahem...

[pjvr99]

.... and the infinite wisdom of Someone Different still does not give the answer, although correct in his statement: I did not check my information, and therefore made a wrong statement - my apologies to the forum. The info I have has the clearance at 25cm/10 inches .....