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Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II

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Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II

Old 5th May 2017, 02:48
  #10561 (permalink)  
 
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Hmmm... yes I suppose invasion must have come up as one option.

Just doing some rushed background remedial reading on this whole event. One source claims the Spitfires never arrived and were kept back for use in India.
If this booklet of Tojo's is singing the praises of his army air force's exploits, and the dates of 20 and 22 June 1943 are reliable, this would be after the arrival of the Spitfires that you mention above, CoodaShooda.

Another Japanese source on the net gives a detailed breakdown on the numbers and types of planes involved, lists the June 1943 attacks, and specifically mentions army aircraft and SE Asia J base names.

The booklet above was put out under a joint heading of Naval Air Command and Army Air Command, suggesting an attempt at harmony with possibly a background of intense pride and rivalry.

Last edited by jolihokistix; 5th May 2017 at 03:21.
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Old 5th May 2017, 03:32
  #10562 (permalink)  
 
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From another site

20th June '43 the JAAF decided to try their luck. 30 bombers and 22 Ki-43 Oscars were met by 46 Spitfires. 9 bombers were destroyed, 8 more damaged, 5 fighters were shot down, 2 damaged without the Wing losing a single Spitfire.
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Old 5th May 2017, 04:50
  #10563 (permalink)  
 
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Ah, thanks, that sounds as if we are zeroing in on the same event!
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Old 5th May 2017, 16:42
  #10564 (permalink)  
 
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Never Mind.

CoodaShooda (#10557)
We still commemorate 19 February 1942 here in Darwin
CoodaShooda (#10562),
The Spitfires didn't arrive in Darwin until February 1943. Until then, we relied on the USAAF's P-40s for air cover.
...At the outbreak of the Pacific War in December 1941 Wirraways equipped seven RAAF squadrons: Nos 4, 5, 12, 22, 23, 24 and 25 [Wiki]...
Surely one or more of these could have been sent to the defence of Darwin ?

Danny.

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
jolihokisticks (#10563),
...Just doing some rushed background remedial reading on this whole event. One source claims the Spitfires never arrived and were kept back for use in India...
IIRC, India did not get any Spitfires either until late 1943. When I arrived there in December, 1942, fresh from a Spitfire OTU in UK, I was dismayed to find that there were none at all there (I was given a Vultee Vengeance to fly instead - (110 Sqn), and never saw the inside of a Spitfire again for seven years !

Danny.
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Old 6th May 2017, 01:26
  #10565 (permalink)  
 
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Thank you for that Danny. Perhaps it should not be amazing that the records of something as vital as this are so patchy. Their arrival in Malta seems clear enough.
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Old 6th May 2017, 03:56
  #10566 (permalink)  
 
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Hi Danny
The Wirraway was derived from the Harvard. OK for training and army co-operation but bloody useless as a fighter against the Zero, where even the Spitfire was hard pressed.

There had been a flight of them at Rabaul, part of 24 Sqdn RAAF, which had no chance. The Squadron effectively lasted 7 minutes into the first attack.

When told to send his last, damaged bomber to attack the Japanese task force, the Squadron Leader replied with the Latin phrase for "We who are about to die salute you."

One Wirraway did manage a kill in New Guinea, once. This was originally claimed as a Zero but historians now think it was an Oscar.

The P-40's could survive using diving tactics but could not survive a turning fight
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Old 6th May 2017, 06:47
  #10567 (permalink)  
 
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My father, a pilot on Spitfires during the B of B, took me during the 1970s to the Imperial War Museum where they had a Zero cockpit section hanging from the ceiling. "I remember hearing rumours about the Zero fairly early on. It had a good reputation even back then," he commented.
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Old 6th May 2017, 07:58
  #10568 (permalink)  
 
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CS:-
20th June '43 the JAAF decided to try their luck. 30 bombers and 22 Ki-43 Oscars were met by 46 Spitfires. 9 bombers were destroyed, 8 more damaged, 5 fighters were shot down, 2 damaged without the Wing losing a single Spitfire.
So the 40+ Spitfires in the jolihokistix Japanese propaganda piece was correct, but everything else a blatant lie? 5 Oscars destroyed but not one Spitfire. 9 of the 30 bombers ( the whole point of the raid) destroyed and a further 8 damaged. Scarcely something to celebrate one would have thought, but that of course is when propaganda comes into its own.

"If you repeat a lie often enough it becomes the truth". Joseph Goebbels may or may not have believed his own lies, but did the inhabitants of Tokyo believe this one?
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Old 6th May 2017, 08:08
  #10569 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry to keep slamming this thread sideways, and in due course I hope it settles back to the conversation into which I butted earlier, but regarding the bombing(s) of Port Darwin and the presence or absence of Spitfires, I found an interesting Japanese web site devoted to WWII aerial discussions, and in this particular case the bombing of 20 June 1943. Apparently for bombers 'Donryu' Helens were used on Darwin for the first and last time.


Anyway, here is the section in question; I will translate the notes too in a little while.
From A2000703.html


Showa 18, June 21 (sic) Darwin attack
Flight 61 Squadron........ Type 100 Donryu Helen heavy bombers 18
75 Squadron (part of).... Type 99 twin light props .................... 9
59 Squadron................. Type 1 Nakajima#43 Oscar Fighters.....22
Independent flight 70..... #46 Dinah ........................................ 2


昭和18年6月21日のダーウィン攻撃:
飛行第六一戦隊     百式重爆 18機
七五戦隊(一部)    九九双軽  9機
五九戦隊        一式戦  22機
独立第七十中隊     司偵    2機

爆撃直前46機のスピットファイアの攻撃を受け重爆1(2?)機
、一式戦1機自爆、不時着重爆1機、双軽2機。重爆の多数被弾。

「敵は空中待避し敵機の地上撃破を逸したのは遺憾だが、多数のス
ピットファイア撃墜を報じ~中略~陸軍航空部隊の豪州第一撃とし
て成功と認めらた」と「戦史叢書」にあります。
なお、実際のスピットファイアの損失は2機、地上での戦死3名、
負傷11名。爆撃前に海軍と一悶着あったのですが、それはまた。

余談ですが、この地では反日感情が結構激しいそうです。まぁ、金
ズルですからあからさまには態度に出さないでしょうけども。


And this from Wiki regarding the Helens which for attacks against Port Darwin were only used this once on 20 June 1943.
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8...92%83%E6%A9%9F


1943年(昭和18年)6月20日のポートダーウィン爆撃では一式戦闘機「隼」の護衛があったとはいえ、出撃した18機中16機が46機のスピットファイア隊の攻撃を耐え切って帰還している。そのため、戦闘機との連携が良い状況では、一〇〇式重爆の防御火力と防弾装備の有効性は高く 評価されることもある。しかし実際は帰還した機体の多くが大破しており修理不能として現地で廃棄され、一〇〇式重爆のポートダー ウィン空襲はこの一回きりしか行われなかった。

Last edited by jolihokistix; 6th May 2017 at 08:48.
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Old 6th May 2017, 08:20
  #10570 (permalink)  
 
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(Cont. translation of above website commentary.)


Right before the bombing run they were attacked by 46 Spitfires and one (two?) heavy bombers were lost, one Oscar blew up, one heavy bomber crashed, and two light bombers were lost. Many heavy bombers suffered serious bullet damage.
Actual Spitfire losses were 2. Three people were killed on the ground and eleven wounded. The 戦史叢書 'Senshi Gyosho' report at the time, however, stated that...

Last edited by jolihokistix; 6th May 2017 at 08:50.
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Old 6th May 2017, 08:33
  #10571 (permalink)  
 
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"Waiting enemy fighters attacked and fled; shamefully we did not destroy what enemy planes we saw on the ground. Great numbers of Spitfires were shot down... (skipping)... so it was established that this first attack by the Army Air Force upon Australia was a success."


Below this is a rare comment from one present-day poster:

"This may be inappropriate (to post here) but it is said that there are pretty strong feelings regarding the Japanese there (in the Port Darwin area). Apparently such expressions are forbidden so people hide it, but just saying..."
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Old 6th May 2017, 08:47
  #10572 (permalink)  
 
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Last of the translation. Thanks for sticking with me! If the J Wiki article information is not available in English, here is my translation of their Japanese paragraph above:

"In the 20 June 1943 bombing of Port Darwin, though they were escorted by type 1 Oscars, 16 of these 18 (Helen) heavy bombers which had set out made it back despite the attack of 46 Spitfires. For this reason when combined with the correct fighter escort, they were highly evaluated, both for their defensive firepower and for their bomb loads. In actual fact upon return the majority were so heavily damaged that they were unrepairable and had to be destroyed, so this was the one and only time they were ever used against Port Darwin."


J Wiki, translation, jolihokistix, 6 May 2017
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Old 6th May 2017, 08:52
  #10573 (permalink)  
 
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jolihokistix,

You might find spitfireassociation.com.au worth a look.

Emeritus
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Old 6th May 2017, 08:55
  #10574 (permalink)  
 
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Many thanks for this, Emeritus. At first glance it looks like a wonderful site where one could spend hours browsing...


Definitely!


And now, having done some reading on your excellent site, I would like to say, if any of the articles, photos above are of interest or use to your organization, please feel free.

Last edited by jolihokistix; 6th May 2017 at 09:17.
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Old 6th May 2017, 11:16
  #10575 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jolihokistix View Post

"This may be inappropriate (to post here) but it is said that there are pretty strong feelings regarding the Japanese there (in the Port Darwin area). Apparently such expressions are forbidden so people hide it, but just saying..."
Now that one is definitely garbage. Japanese are as welcome here as anyone else. We judge you on your behaviour, not your appearance. (There's something like 45 different cultures represented here in our 200,000 population, not including the local indigenous tribal groups. )
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Old 6th May 2017, 12:00
  #10576 (permalink)  
 
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Coda, yes I posted it, but it was a comment written by a Japanese on that site. Thank you for the clarification, which even as a European I am very glad to hear.
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Old 6th May 2017, 12:11
  #10577 (permalink)  
 
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I back up CoodaShooda. Whilst I was there they even accepted Poms as equals.
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Old 6th May 2017, 12:25
  #10578 (permalink)  
 
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Apologies Jolihokistix

I knew you were quoting another but my cut and paste skills on an iPad are not what they should be.

And I have also failed to thank you for steering this magnificent thread into my backyard for a while.

Our aviation museum has the remains of the first Zero shot down in the first raid. It's a fairly complete rear fuselage through to firewall and wings. What is very obvious is the small size and lightweight construction compared to allied fighters.
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Old 6th May 2017, 12:26
  #10579 (permalink)  
 
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jolihokistix (#10571),
...Sorry to keep slamming this thread sideways, and in due course I hope it settles back to the conversation into which I butted earlier...
No problem, jhsx, this Thread revels in being "Butted sideways": it is this which has made it the most popular "normal" Thread on "Military Aviation". Keep on "Butting" to your heart's content !
...bombers 'Donryu' Helens were used on Darwin for the first and last time...
Might've done better with the Type 99 "Betty" or the Ki-21 "Sally".

The "Betty" was the torpedo bomber (although the size of our "Wellington") which saw off our "Prince of Wales" and "Repulse" off Malaya on 10/11/41, and so sealed the fate of Singapore, Malaya, Siam, and Burma (and it was "touch and go" for India as well).

9 "Bettys" bombed us (110 and 45 Sqns) at Khumbirgram (Assam) on 11/11/43. Score: three airmen (110) killed, one of 110's Vengeance Cat 5,, a number damaged, one of 45's VVs up a tree (in haste to get away), aircraft OK, but tree a write-off, and our Flight truck burned out. Oh, and a Works 'n Bricks working elephant went AWOL and was never seen again (this generated more paper than all the rest put together).

Second thought: might've beem 9 "Sallys", but think "Bettys". They sailed off unharmed, as we had nothing to hit them with.

Danny.
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Old 7th May 2017, 05:43
  #10580 (permalink)  
 
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Many thanks for the informative follow-up, Danny.


Nothing to do with the price of fish, but the overkill comment on the Sydney Spitfire Association site yesterday regarding 20 mm cannon on human targets reminded me of something my mother experienced in Burma during the war. Her (first) husband was stationed at a particular airfield and she used to go for walks when the day was not too hot. One day on the edge of the woods at the end of the runway she heard frantic shouting and the roar of engines, and some Japanese 'sharks' swooped down and strafed the airstrip. She said they were so close that for one instant she locked eyes with one of the J pilots.
She had been advised to stand upright and still as many considered that you presented less of a target that way.

Last edited by jolihokistix; 7th May 2017 at 06:50.
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