Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II

[Danny42C]

"......for talk of many things......"

MPN11 (your #6497),

I would think that would be true. But in the early days, when a number of them were still grass, they had been ingeniously camouflaged by the simple means of painting black tar "hedges" across them, dividing them up into quite normal looking "fields". I believe the same idea has been used to produce instant "olive groves" (as seen from the air, that is), in order to get hand-outs from the Common Agricultural Policy without the tedious neccesity of actually planting any trees.

Our "hedges" were stunningly effective, so although there might be five airfields there, you could only see two or three of them....... D.


mmitch (your #6498),

I would think that the beaches were pretty well defended already with barbed wire and mines ("Dad's Army" - "Pike" !). But if an invasion force was actually getting ashore, it would follow that the enemy had already established air superiority over the beaches; plenty of Me109s would be buzzing about; the slow and almost defenceless Lysander would not last very long.

That Churchill would have used gas we shall never know. In extremis you will use anything. In one of my later Indian Posts I speculated that our ostensible "Chemical Defence Research Establishment" might have been secretly harbouring "offensive" ideas (for retaliation only, if need arose)......D.

DHfan (aren't we all ? - your #6499),

Yes, after my recent Post I looked it up to check: seems there was such a beast, but only one. This would been at Boscombe Down, so my informant must either have been a TP there, or another Walter Mitty, of we've had our share !

I'll say they had to shorten the fuselage ! - with that great bob-weight on the end of the tail ! I suppose they could have fixed a block of concrete under the nose (à la the "Blue Circle" Fighter), to balance it, but then the thing would never leave the ground.......D.

Worf (your #6500),

Thank you for reinforcing my recent remark that "Bharat Rakshak" is a mine of good stories, and introducing us to the links on it (I speak as one who saw action with 8 Sqdn, IAF).

Many silly things were said in HQs far from that action ("He jests at scars that never felt a wound" [Shakespeare]). But in this instance they were right in fact (Majumdar was operating in a time of retreat, but that has no relevance: acts of gallantry are, if anything, more numerous in those circumstances).

But to infer from that they were in some way less praiseworthy on that account is monstrous: I hope your Blimp has been misunderstood in his remarks......D.

Cheers to you all, Danny.

[Pom Pax]

Sgt James Ward V.C.

Whilst on the subject of 75 (NZ) squadron similar to the remarks on S/L Karun Krishna Majumdar, their Airships had reservations on the award to Sgt James Ward. "The recommendation for a VC was a matter of discussion at the time. Senior RAF officers questioned whether a VC was appropriate since his actions had some aspect of self-preservation."
The Aircraft & Sgt Ward

[Danny42C]

Pom Pax (your #6503),

You quote: "Senior RAF officers questioned whether a VC was appropriate since his actions had some aspect of self-preservation". When do they not when you're in a tight corner ? I would take issue with that.

Captains Burkill (777 at Heathrow) and Sullenberger (A320 in the Hudson river) were widely fêted as heroes. In fact, they saved themselves and in so doing saved (in both cases) everyone else on board. What motivated them ? In so far as they were "heroes" at all, did the fact that they saved themselves as well as others detract from their achievement ? Certainly not !!

How would the argument run if there were no one on board behind the Flight Deck ? It's the Chicken and Egg problem again (they can't save themselves without saving the aeroplane and vice versa).

D.

[pzu]

Captains Burkill (777 at Heathrow) and Sullenberger (A320 in the Hudson river) were widely fêted as heroes. In fact, they saved themselves and in so doing saved (in both cases) everyone else on board. What motivated them ? In so far as they were "heroes" at all, did the fact that they saved themselves as well as others detract from their achievement ? Certainly not !!

And also Danny they both 'missed the school'!!!

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

[smujsmith]

With great respect gentlemen, both the Heathrow 777 and the arrival in the "Hudson" were the result of proper, trained for, emergencies that could happen to any professional pilot any day of their working lives. When it comes to heroes, we mustn't lose sight of the fact that our chaps in WW1, WW2 and even subsequent conflicts, having been threatened on numerous occasions, still mounted their aircraft and set off to once again serve their country. I make no apology in saying that no politician, sportsman or celebrity can truly claim the attribute of Hero, though many happily do, for doing a job which offers no threat, and is genouriusly paid. My analogy is the Private soldier, accepting his third tour in Afghanistan, on a £20k salary, whilst Wayne Rooney (Hero of Man U) earns £25k a week. The word is abused by the media left right and centre, perhaps some of us can still recognise what a real hero is.

Smudge

[Union Jack]

.....whilst Wayne Rooney (Hero of Man U) earns £25k a week. - Smudge

On a point of order, Smudge, he may only be worth £25K a week, but I understand that he is actually paid £300K a week!

Jack

[smujsmith]

UJ,

Thanks for that, I stand corrected.

Smudge

[Union Jack]

Not intended as a correction at all, Smudge, so much as an amplification of your very well made point.

That said, I might also have allowed my self to make just the tiniest suggestion that there is a great difference between what people earn and what they are paid.......

Jack

[Fantome]

. .. . while not wanting to sell you in any sense up the river Smudge . . ..

. .. for Potomac I think read Hudson

[smujsmith]

Fantome, UJ,

Thank you both, I suspect that dementia is already having an affect My mistake has now been corrected happily.

Smudge

[Danny42C]

Air Florida Flight 90.

Fantome and Smudjsmith,

Well spotted ! It was a sad story (Title on Wiki above gives all details). Far be it from me to criticise any other pilot - for where is one who has never made a mistake under pressure ? - but Captains Burkill and Sullenberger were both highly skilful and professional - and also damned lucky !

In any case, nil nisi bonum should apply.

D.

[MPN11]

From my 'Ivory Tower' I have seen many pilots get it right/wrong in those compressed few seconds when it mattered.

Sadly some got it wrong, for one reason or another, and are no longer with us. Other survived through luck or skill, and went on to fight and fly another day.

I would note that it's not a nice feeling watching a fireball [or a pile of debris] on the airfield, seen from the prime vantage point, occupied by someone you were drinking with the previous evening. I suspect many here have had the same experience.

[26er]

The old ones are the best !!!!


When I moved into this area some 30 years ago I became aware of Bicester Garrison. You couldn't get into the local pubs at lunchtime or in the evenings (time of The Falklands) for throngs of civil servants working overtime. I asked "how many people work at the garrison?" and was told "about half of them".

[ValMORNA]

I didn't realise this was a civil-servant bashing thread . . .


Theresa May said, today, in a speech, that over 700 terrorist plots in this country had been countered. Perhaps all civil servants in MI5 and MI6 should be culled? A useful money-saving device?

[harrym]

SE Asia, Sept-Oct 1945

On arrival at Mingaladon initial impressions were reasonably favourable. Being an inland site rather than coastal the rainfall was notably less, while our squadron's domestic site was down a sandy track in an area of low scrub and a few trees; best of all, we were directed to a new tent among a group already erected awaiting our arrival – a distinct improvement over our welcome at Akyab! However, there were drawbacks: the main one, given lesser rainfall due to an inland location plus the tail end of the monsoon season, that water (other than for drinking) was less easily come by, having to be collected by bucket from a barely adequate well some distance away.

At this time (latter part of August) only a cease-fire prevailed as there had been no official surrender by the Japanese, hostilities being suspended rather than ceased. To the east of Burma lay the vast areas of Thailand and French Indo-China, containing large numbers of Japanese troops plus those of our own people who had survived 3 ½ years of captivity in their hands. No land communication existed through the jungle-clad hills in between, other than the much-bombed and rickety railway built by our POWs and native forced labour under brutal supervision, while access by sea meant a long and laborious voyage south round Singapore and then back up north – so it fell to us to fly in our occupying troops plus anything else they needed, and bring back the ex-POWs to Rangoon from where they would sail home to UK. Following some shuttle flights back to Akyab to complete the unit move, this was to be our primary task for the whole of September.

Not long after our arrival a Japanese delegation flew in from Bangkok to settle surrender terms for their forces in the Burma-Thailand-IndoChina area, its arrival conflicting with a wave of (our) inbound traffic that was instructed to orbit while the two Jap aircraft landed. Initially however they were nowhere in sight, and so the circuit soon became crowded with up to twenty Daks (including ours) going round in a circle. Eventually their two aircraft appeared, but after landing backtracked at a snail’s pace so taking an age to clear the runway. Overcome with impatience I grabbed my hand mike, snarling “get a move on you little yellow b------s” or words to that effect, to receive in return a barrage of “hear hears” and sundry less polite expletives, the tower plaintively replying (when they could get a word in) “sorry, we have no radio contact with our visitors”!

It was a short flight of about two & a quarter hours to Bangkok, with Saigon three hours or so further on. The outbound loads consisted mainly of stores needed by our own occupation troops, while return flights were either flown empty or with groups of our own recently liberated men. Expecting a load of zombie-like creatures, I remember being surprised (as were we all) by their relative fitness; for sure they were all on the slim side, but almost without exception were able to walk up to and board the aircraft without assistance – not only that, they bore themselves in a well-disciplined and confident manner and I was happy that my 21st birthday was passed ferrying a load of mainly Gordon Highlanders back to Rangoon – what better way to celebrate the occasion? No doubt there were some stretcher cases but I never saw them, and some weeks had elapsed since the Japanese surrender during which time great efforts would have been made to succour our ex-prisoners by means of air-dropped supplies and other means.

Part of the return flight took us close to the notorious railway where it crossed the mountain range separating Burma and Thailand, and we were surprised to be asked by our passengers if it was possible to fly over it so they could have a last look. To us it was a strange request – after all their suffering, surely it would be the last thing any sane person would want? – but we did our best to comply, on one occasion even seeing a train, but usually the hills were covered in heavy cloud and rainstorms. On reflection, I suppose it was a way of saying a last goodbye to their lost mates lying buried below.

A change came early next month with the first task being to lift an occupying force into the Moulmein area, a short flight across the Gulf of Martaban. The airfield at Moulmein was fairly basic and then still under Japanese control, but at this distance in time I cannot recall much about the facilities (or lack of them) except that the parking area was manned by their personnel and that such marshalling instructions we received hardly conformed to standard RAF procedures. The Japs were I think rather overwhelmed by having to deal with such a large number of aircraft, and I got the impression that the individual in front of us, vaguely waving his two flags in a totally incomprehensible manner, was trying to park us on a spot enclosed by some white lines on the ground; but his guidance, such as it was, was so incomprehensible that in the end I decided for myself exactly where to stop. Speaking to one of our advance ground party a few minutes later I asked him just what the lines represented: “look over there”, he said, pointing to a very lopsided Dakota a short distance away, “he has fallen into a booby trap like the one you have just avoided, you were supposed to keep outside of the white lines!”.

By this time the backlog of ex-POWs had been cleared from Bangkok, so other destinations such as Saigon began to figure. The political situation in Indo-China (AKA Vietnam) was tricky, with many of the locals objecting to re-imposition of European rule, while the fact of us being Brits rather than Frogs was irrelevant to them; as it was, some French forces were already beginning to trickle in so they had a point but, being their allies, we were bound to support them rather than any local rebels/freedom fighters or whatever. A similar situation on a larger scale existed in Indonesia, where we became unwillingly dragged into a struggle against Dutch rule.

Indeed Saigon became a welcome night stop, offering as it did facilities markedly superior to our accustomed tented accommodation and indifferent grub – but my first flight into its oddly-named Tan son Nhut airfield came close to possible disaster. For some forgotten reason our turn round at Bangkok was delayed, so departure into a gloomy sky was not until late afternoon. Approaching Saigon in the fading early evening light the ground below appeared to be largely flooded, but we were reassured by the airfield beacon's steady signal while the tower informed us all was well despite a fairly low cloud base and accompanying light rain. Having been previously warned that a radio station abutted the airfield I closely studied the (rather inadequate) map, but was relieved to see that it was shown as being reasonably well clear; so, given clearance to join the circuit pattern I manoeuvred to join downwind in the approved manner at a lower than usual height of around 5-600ft. I was therefore somewhat alarmed when a passenger (who happened to be my flight commander) appeared and said he had just seen a radio mast go past his window (!), however a vigorous scan by myself and the co-pilot revealed nothing untoward and so we continued on to land. As we decelerated after touchdown I was slightly startled by the sight of a Japanese sentry at the runway's edge presenting arms, later wondering if this was some form of tribute – for, as we disembarked, the radio station's obstruction lights burst into brilliant life, delineating the masts' great height in stark clarity. Indeed without doubt we must have flown through at least part of the forest of masts and cables, avoiding catastrophe by sheer chance.

On subsequent night stops we were accommodated in the town's Majestic Hotel (a considerable improvement on our accustomed tents), but on this first occasion we found ourselves in an adequate if rather decayed colonial bungalow. The next morning, going out to the veranda to fetch some water from one of the enormous Ali Baba-style urns that seemed to be its sole source, I was startled by a sudden crashing noise accompanied by a peculiar hissing sound emanating from a grinning Jap sentry presenting arms – fixed bayonet and all! It transpired that the Japs were now providing much of the security for us, at any rate until such time as there were enough of our own troops available and/or the situation stabilised; but for some time yet they rendered many other services, such as drivers MT, loading/unloading aircraft etc – the most surprising of which however, was providing aircraft and crews for internal air services within Indo-China.

It was indeed a strange feeling to be sharing the airfield with them, and the Jap crews were kept fairly busy until around the end of the year when they were stood down; I was told that they had exhausted stocks of their own fuel, Japanese aircraft apparently not being partial to our brand of avgas, but maybe the French had got themselves better organised by then. Mostly they used a twin engine low wing bird, capable of carrying probably a maximum of 12-15 pax, but I did also notice one or two of their DC3 copies parked about although never in flight.

In course of time Saigon became an eagerly anticipated night stop. The Majestic, although somewhat run down and dilapidated, was comfortable enough by the standards we had become used to and was well situated on a busy corner close to the town's main wharf on the Saigon river; seated on the hotel's terrace with drink in hand, the passing scene provided much variety – maybe an ocean-going ship or two, white-clad local girls on old fashioned bikes mixing it with French army dispatch riders on their Harleys, locals of various shapes and sizes, perhaps even an ancient locomotive performing some desultory shunting on the quayside, while the town centre itself retained a strong southern French character, its shady tree-lined streets lined with buildings of almost Mediterannean appearance. There were rumours of possible trouble with the Annamites, as the local Vietnamese opposition were then known, but it was mostly out in the country and the city remained secure at that time.

By the end of October the tasking emphasis on the Bangkok-Saigon run lessened somewhat, and we started to range out in other directions; which will be covered in the next instalment.


Here I must ask for help from those more knowledgeable than myself. I would like to add an attachment to a future post, but a little box at the bottom of the screen says 'attachments not allowed' – so how do I go about it?

[pzu]

70 years ago today, - 25th November 1944

OFF subject but may be of interest to some who frequent this thread

What i call 'That photo', taken by my late Dad Ken Crossley, then an RAF(VR) F/Sgt A/G on attachment to 31 Sqd SAAF -70 years ago today, has been used in many publications

Subject is 31 Sqd Liberator B MkVI KG937 'K' - King, on a daylight supply mission to Tito's partisans - from Dad's log (he was in P 249) load was 12 x 330lb containers from 2000ft

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e1...g?t=1416966297

For info the Mid Upper Gunner of 'K' - King was also an RAF(VR) A/G then Sgt Ivor Worsfold, who recently celebrated (along with his twin brother) his 93rd birthday

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

[smujsmith]

Harrym,

Fear not, there is a resident expert on attachments etc, who I'm sure will be along with a PM shortly, to explain the mysteries of posting on PPRUNE. Meanwhile, yet another cracking episode that segues nicely through to post war activities. I'm sure there's more to come.

Smudge

[ValMORNA]

pzu,


Re your post #6515, the link to the photograph is not working for me, 'This page can not be displayed.'

[pzu]

pzu,

Re your post #6515, the link to the photograph is not working for me, 'This page can not be displayed.'

Apologies, hopefully now fixed

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

[MPN11]

Is that K or K ??

The underline suggesting that the codes had gone from A-Z and started again at A ... implying a very large sqn UE.