Spoil the ship
Thread Starter
Spoil the ship
. . for a ha'p'orth of tar.
I appreciate that this is not aviation related but it is military and has certain resonances in most safety critical theatres.
I know hindsight is dead easy but, with publically available charts at £20 and, no doubt, the MoD printing their own specials, does scrapping a few dozen charts really matter?
I appreciate that this is not aviation related but it is military and has certain resonances in most safety critical theatres.
Three crewmen were injured when the hunter-killer submarine Trafalgar turned into rocks because trainee commanders could not see vital symbols that had been covered by the paper.
Senior officers supervising the course have been criticised for serious lapses after the tracing paper was put over charts to prevent pen marks damaging the maps.
Senior officers supervising the course have been criticised for serious lapses after the tracing paper was put over charts to prevent pen marks damaging the maps.
Given that the incident happened in 2002, why has it taken so long to get this case completed?
Is it coincidence, or the Telegraphs sense of humour, that the article features an advert for laser eye correction "Laser eye treatment could change your life".
Is it coincidence, or the Telegraphs sense of humour, that the article features an advert for laser eye correction "Laser eye treatment could change your life".
Acetate sheets, anyone? 
and marker pens as well!!!! You would think that if the Army were capable of using such for years, that the Navy would have be picked up on it by then. My jaw often hits the floor when I see some of the things I seen done by the brown jobs and dark blue.
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Over-simplification???
The focus on the effect of the tracing paper is an over-simplification of a navigational mistake made by a student under significant pressure that wasn't spotted by the Command. The results of that mistake were the incorrect reduction in the "pool of errors" which resulted in the sub making an alteration into what it thought was safe water when in fact that patch of ocean was occupied by Scotland.
Of course, we've never lost or damaged any aircraft through professional errors made under stressful circumstances have we????
Of course, we've never lost or damaged any aircraft through professional errors made under stressful circumstances have we????
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Tracing paper was an invaluable, nay essential, piece of kit for ASW navigation in the Mk 1 Nimrod. I don't know if it is still in use today.
By its very nature both airborne and sub-surface ASW takes place in a small area over a protracted period of time. If tracing paper was not used the chart would quickly look like a spider's web. If a new chart was used everytime the old one became too cluttered you would need dozens of charts. As the patrol area might change, or the mission might last days, you would need a massive storage.
In addition to plotting one's own position a plot will also include own forces intended movements (PIM or SIM), patrol 'features' etc etc. These may be on the base chart or on an overlay.
While it is quite possible that work could be done on an electronic display manual plotting and recording is an essential, alternative, backup useful in the case of a computer crash, power failure, and post-mission reconstruction away from the onboard integrated systems.
Where the system might have been improved is to highlight points of interest on the base chart so that they are visible through more than one trace.
By its very nature both airborne and sub-surface ASW takes place in a small area over a protracted period of time. If tracing paper was not used the chart would quickly look like a spider's web. If a new chart was used everytime the old one became too cluttered you would need dozens of charts. As the patrol area might change, or the mission might last days, you would need a massive storage.
In addition to plotting one's own position a plot will also include own forces intended movements (PIM or SIM), patrol 'features' etc etc. These may be on the base chart or on an overlay.
While it is quite possible that work could be done on an electronic display manual plotting and recording is an essential, alternative, backup useful in the case of a computer crash, power failure, and post-mission reconstruction away from the onboard integrated systems.
Where the system might have been improved is to highlight points of interest on the base chart so that they are visible through more than one trace.
Exactly why the Army use acetate 'talc' sheets (normally more than one on a bird table for different classes of information) and markers as they currently do, and will still use them along with electronic displays for the reasons you stated.
Thread Starter
AW,
Of course we have. I blush to think of all the errors, one or two potentially fatal (but not actually or I wouldn't be typing this ) that I've made. I did not intend to pretend to be superior to these highly professional submariners but merely to suggest that scrapping the odd dozen charts doesn't matter.
In the RAF in the sixties we just cut up charts for one trip and binned them afterwards. (Subsequently discovered civvies didn't like that approach to paperwork)
Edit: Yes, BOI report interesting reading for airmen, sailors etc.
Pontius Navigator,
Thanks for the input from the 'horse's mouth'. I guess part of the solution is having an ongoing mental picture but it would be so much less stressful to have a clear chart.
I was a trucky (at decision time thought "Shack? Noisy, long trip, back to where we left 12 hrs ago? Naahhh! Actually regret that now because I think it's an interesting role.)
I wonder how they're charting now?
Piggy,
We crossed. Never said it had anything to do with military aviation but it appears from subsequent posts that, blow me!, it does.
I take it you've just been on the toot as well
Of course, we've never lost or damaged any aircraft through professional errors made under stressful circumstances have we????
) that I've made. I did not intend to pretend to be superior to these highly professional submariners but merely to suggest that scrapping the odd dozen charts doesn't matter.In the RAF in the sixties we just cut up charts for one trip and binned them afterwards. (Subsequently discovered civvies didn't like that approach to paperwork)
Edit: Yes, BOI report interesting reading for airmen, sailors etc.
Pontius Navigator,
Thanks for the input from the 'horse's mouth'. I guess part of the solution is having an ongoing mental picture but it would be so much less stressful to have a clear chart.
I was a trucky (at decision time thought "Shack? Noisy, long trip, back to where we left 12 hrs ago? Naahhh! Actually regret that now because I think it's an interesting role.)
I wonder how they're charting now?
Piggy,
We crossed. Never said it had anything to do with military aviation but it appears from subsequent posts that, blow me!, it does.
I take it you've just been on the toot as well
Last edited by Basil; 25th May 2008 at 10:14. Reason: Have now read BOI report
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No, you're absolutely right.
This has nothing to do with military aviation.
This has nothing to do with military aviation.
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The Nottingham incident wasn't caused by the chart being obscured but rather by not looking at it when manouvering to recover the helicopter
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...he-579646.html
http://www.skipper.co.nz/nzps30.htm
(aviation related see!)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...he-579646.html
http://www.skipper.co.nz/nzps30.htm
(aviation related see!
)
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St Kilda was a case in point at one time. The BBC weather map with the Shetlands east of Aberdeen or Newcastle was another.
Nimrods used to use (still do?) skeleton plotting charts. Just a nice clean uncluttered chart with just a lat/long grid. "Now exactly where is North Rona again Nav?"
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Sunnybunny
No, the officer of the watch had the wrong scale of chart out. On the chart he was looking at, wolf rock was small enough to be obscured by pencil lines.
Just because something is in the paper, does not make it true
No, the officer of the watch had the wrong scale of chart out. On the chart he was looking at, wolf rock was small enough to be obscured by pencil lines.
Just because something is in the paper, does not make it true
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
What is the size of your bird table?
An MPA 'bird table' is typically 200 x 150 MILES with a 1:500,000 chart which is about 8 miles to the inch. Compare this with a ground chart - JOG at 1:250,000 or a local area chart at 1:25,000. What you use to write with becomes significant.
A wax pencil on a 1:500,000 topo at 540 kts or 9 miles per minute is perfectly adequate. Tracking a ship or submarine at 300 yards per minute on a chart at 8 miles to the inch needs a little more finess. A lead pencil or coloured rollerball pens is prefered for accuracy and neatness; you cant use these on acetate.
Touching on sea mounts however, in the late 70s, after much arguement the maritime force eventually managed to get underwater topographical maps. These had undersea contours and the position of known wrecks where these could create magnetic anomalies or be a hiding place for submarines. There was also a confidential overlay to mark 'unknown' wrecks etc but I think most crews didn't bother with the classified overchart.
BTW, the V-force lived on acetate sheet (or at least the nav radars did) so it was not something used exclusively by dark blue and brown. We used very fine Rotaring Pens on them.
