Would the cancellation of FLynx be the end of the Army Air Corps?
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WillDAQ.
Why shouldn't the MoD specify what design features they would like in a product. I mean, what would be the point of buying a helicopter to fly to and from ships, if that helicopter couldn't fit inside the hangar?
Is it too much to ask that a battlefield helicopter has some built in protection for the aircrew that fly it on the battlefield?
Is it too much to ask, that if a helicopter is going to be sent in harms-way, then it has its vital systems protected by some sort of armour, and have built in redundancy where ever possible? I mean, the US Army demanded all these things when they ordered UH60 and AH64.
In my opinion Westland helicopters are a cottage industry, kept alive by successive governments, they have never had to compete on the world market, and haven’t. Consequently the Army have had to make do with a Navy helicopter, great design for small ships at sea level, no good for moving troops in the mountains of Bosnia in the summer, (I hear the same is true in Afghanistan). Development costs are reduced by the services sharing a common airframe. Think about it, the only reason the Royal Air Force is now flying Merlin, is because the Canadians cancelled their order, if the twenty airframes weren't sold on, then the development costs would have been lumped onto the Royal Navy, making the fleet so expensive. The answer was to sell the Canadian airframes to the Royal Air Force, who needed a Wessex replacement. It doesn't matter which service it is, you all make sacrifices in capability. I do accept the Merlin is doing a great job in Iraq and the lads and lasses flying it think it is a great airframe.
Will this be the end of the Army Air Corps? I doubt it. But then again, I don’t think that it will be the end of the world if the Army Air Corps did fold; the ground troops will still get what they want, when they want it, the infantry will get Close in Fire Support when they require it, and who knows, they might get more of it!
Why shouldn't the MoD specify what design features they would like in a product. I mean, what would be the point of buying a helicopter to fly to and from ships, if that helicopter couldn't fit inside the hangar?
Is it too much to ask that a battlefield helicopter has some built in protection for the aircrew that fly it on the battlefield?
Is it too much to ask, that if a helicopter is going to be sent in harms-way, then it has its vital systems protected by some sort of armour, and have built in redundancy where ever possible? I mean, the US Army demanded all these things when they ordered UH60 and AH64.
In my opinion Westland helicopters are a cottage industry, kept alive by successive governments, they have never had to compete on the world market, and haven’t. Consequently the Army have had to make do with a Navy helicopter, great design for small ships at sea level, no good for moving troops in the mountains of Bosnia in the summer, (I hear the same is true in Afghanistan). Development costs are reduced by the services sharing a common airframe. Think about it, the only reason the Royal Air Force is now flying Merlin, is because the Canadians cancelled their order, if the twenty airframes weren't sold on, then the development costs would have been lumped onto the Royal Navy, making the fleet so expensive. The answer was to sell the Canadian airframes to the Royal Air Force, who needed a Wessex replacement. It doesn't matter which service it is, you all make sacrifices in capability. I do accept the Merlin is doing a great job in Iraq and the lads and lasses flying it think it is a great airframe.
Will this be the end of the Army Air Corps? I doubt it. But then again, I don’t think that it will be the end of the world if the Army Air Corps did fold; the ground troops will still get what they want, when they want it, the infantry will get Close in Fire Support when they require it, and who knows, they might get more of it!
Last edited by owe ver chute; 2nd May 2008 at 14:49.
Nothing new here, Short Stirling performance was not as it could of been because the War Department/Air Ministry specified that the wing span must fit through a standard set of hangar doors. The Sea Lynx/Army Lynx precedent has been set before also, Wasp/Scout. Why, as a community of professional cynics, are any of us surprised? Lions, Donkeys and Dinosaurs.
SL
SL
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Why shouldn't the MoD specify what design features they would like in a product. I mean, what would be the point of buying a helicopter to fly to and from ships, if that helicopter couldn't fit inside the hangar?
1) MoD puts out a specification for x helicopters with y features costing £z.
2) AW design a helicopter that meets the spec and cost assuming that a certain number are to be made. If it's got to be cheap they pitch a simple helicopter with bolt on features, if the MoD want to splash some cash they get something more custom.
3) Helicopters built and delivered, everyone is happy.
What actually happens:
1) MoD puts out a specification for x helicopters with y features costing £z.
2) AW design a helicopter that meets the spec and cost assuming that a certain number are made. In Lynx's case a nice design update because the MoD have set z quite high.
3) MoD run out of cash/change the spec/change number bought
4) AW to adapt to these changes on the fly and costs sky rocket.
5) MoD decides its all too expensive, drops the project.
6) AW get the blame because step 2 wasn't a competitive tender.
Is it too much to ask that a battlefield helicopter has some built in protection for the aircrew that fly it on the battlefield? Is it too much to ask, that if a helicopter is going to be sent in harms-way, then it has its vital systems protected by some sort of armour, and have built in redundancy where ever possible? I mean, the US Army demanded all these things when they ordered UH60 and AH64.
If they did ask for armour then there are two possible reasons it's not there:
1) AW have messed up badly
2) MoD have messed up badly
Were it 1) I have no doubt there would be elements of the armed services/MoD who would be rubbing it in AW's face in it (so to speak). Instead it's been all quiet, so i'm guessing 2).
In my opinion Westland helicopters are a cottage industry, kept alive by successive governments, they have never had to compete on the world market, and haven’t. Consequently the Army have had to make do with a Navy helicopter, great design for small ships at sea level, no good for moving troops in the mountains of Bosnia in the summer, (I hear the same is true in Afghanistan). Development costs are reduced by the services sharing a common airframe. Think about it, the only reason the Royal Air Force is now flying Merlin, is because the Canadians cancelled their order, if the twenty airframes weren't sold on, then the development costs would have been lumped onto the Royal Navy, making the fleet so expensive. The answer was to sell the Canadian airframes to the Royal Air Force, who needed a Wessex replacement. It doesn't matter which service it is, you all make sacrifices in capability. I do accept the Merlin is doing a great job in Iraq and the lads and lasses flying it think it is a great airframe.
The merlin is an interesting example as in spite of being specified for quite a specific role it can do a bit of everything. It's probably because that specific weight point and the engines available forced the 3 engine configuration. That in turn has a very useful effect on the performance envelope both hot and high and in the OEI case. Plus of course having a little too much load/space capacity is never as bad as not having enough.
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)Just as worrying is the idea of not having a replacement! Capability gap anyone?
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Capability gap? Now you are talking a language recently thrust upon the RAF by the Scots mafia in ernest.
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What is wrong with FLynx? The Navy love it and as far as I have seen reading through the posts the Army don't really know what they want....except that they want lots of them. As the Army are stuck with fighting today's war rather than worrying about the future perhaps they should lease Kiowas etc from the US whilst they make up their mind. Look on Google Earth at the Mojave desert, there are hundreds of them....but of course it would cost £xM to convert them for Brit use!
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Ah, Stacker, me ol' shipwreck, you are showing your age! The latest spin/jargon to come from the 'centre' is a 'capability holiday'. It amazes me how much the self licking lollypops big up themselves with such phrases. In my mind, the 'centre' is Jack, Percy or Crabbo, doing the business on our behalf on the front line, and anyone who thinks they are more important than them should have a short, sharp reminder dished out to them! Wa&%*rs!
Apologies for the rant, I do try so hard not to drift off thread!
Apologies for the rant, I do try so hard not to drift off thread!
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... perhaps they should lease Kiowas etc from the US whilst they make up their mind. Look on Google Earth at the Mojave desert, there are hundreds of themperhaps they should lease Kiowas etc from the US whilst they make up their mind. ...
Lots of Kiowas available 'cuz the US Army is retiring 'em 'cuz they be gettin' obsolete ... Therefore mebbe appropriate for sale or lease to our British cousins, but how many soldiers do you plan to transport with H-58's?
http://www.c00lstuff.com/370/OH_58D_Kiowa_helicopter_hot_surveillance_tape/
Lots of Kiowas available 'cuz the US Army is retiring 'em 'cuz they be gettin' obsolete ... Therefore mebbe appropriate for sale or lease to our British cousins, but how many soldiers do you plan to transport with H-58's?
http://www.c00lstuff.com/370/OH_58D_Kiowa_helicopter_hot_surveillance_tape/
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Direction of Lynx
I'm sure that everyone that is involved with Lynx realises that it has a significant capability gap that has come about through bad timing and investment, if I take a Lynx to an open day it seems to be more of an occurance that the playstation generation regard it as a novel relic with the layout of dials "like a Spitfire or somfing".
As to what the Army wants, the Directorate has to take it's share of the blame as one Brig after another has failed to provide foresight and direction at any level, even now the passage of information is similar to that of a company on the verge of Bankruptcy, i wonder what is was like at Rover just before the inevitable happened. If I was the current incumbent, a man i have a lot of time for by the way, i would be writing to my predecessers and say F*** you very much for the S*** fest you have left me to deal with!
IMHO bin Lynx, there is no requirement for it, give the funding to those that need it...SH/AH, why not accept that we are where we are.
As to what the Army wants, the Directorate has to take it's share of the blame as one Brig after another has failed to provide foresight and direction at any level, even now the passage of information is similar to that of a company on the verge of Bankruptcy, i wonder what is was like at Rover just before the inevitable happened. If I was the current incumbent, a man i have a lot of time for by the way, i would be writing to my predecessers and say F*** you very much for the S*** fest you have left me to deal with!
IMHO bin Lynx, there is no requirement for it, give the funding to those that need it...SH/AH, why not accept that we are where we are.
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The RAF would probably do pretty much the same as what the AAC does with it, although there may be a few less parked up at Shawbury being cherry picked for spares as the RAF may actually be able to use some the the knowledge within the organisation from working with other types that are slightly more complex than a toaster to get a grip of the maintenance issues.
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Helpful,
Or should I say 'less than'!
Think you might find there ain't non at Shawbs anymore. Does this indicate the standard of RAF int gathering, hope not!
You might find that Time Sensitive Targetting would benefit from faster , more accurate int than that
HEDP
Or should I say 'less than'!
Think you might find there ain't non at Shawbs anymore. Does this indicate the standard of RAF int gathering, hope not!
You might find that Time Sensitive Targetting would benefit from faster , more accurate int than that
HEDP
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"Think you may find...."? Call me old fashioned but assumptions have never been accurate int either!
At least I can excuse my lack of firm int on having last been at Shawbury over a year ago.
Anyway, regardless of the current location there are many of them with few hours on the clock but missing a few parts for a number of reasons and not all of them procurement related.
At least I can excuse my lack of firm int on having last been at Shawbury over a year ago.
Anyway, regardless of the current location there are many of them with few hours on the clock but missing a few parts for a number of reasons and not all of them procurement related.
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Getting back on thread
The situation as a whole is a complete farce. A few years ago we had Future Lynx and SABR rolling along and both were chopped. Future Lynx was ressurected with the Army variant being Recce rather than Light Utility and now they face the chop. SABR seems to have vanished without trace along with any notional replacement for Puma. The Navy continue to fly the Sea King/Commando which must be nearing the end of its life be now.
And what have we to replace all of these assets and at a time where their use is probably at a level greater than when we were at our busiest in NI? Thats right, nothing.
I am not sure whats going to happen to the AAC but I think that if it is to become part of the RAF then the FAA will surely follow along at a pace or two behind and then we will all become one.
I know there will be some that will be horrified at my saying this but to be honest, if that meant we had more and better aircraft to operate I would welcome the change. As for Future MoD spending I cannot see this present Government applying any substance to its promises and hence we will continue spiralling into the abyss until we can no longer make do.
And what have we to replace all of these assets and at a time where their use is probably at a level greater than when we were at our busiest in NI? Thats right, nothing.
I am not sure whats going to happen to the AAC but I think that if it is to become part of the RAF then the FAA will surely follow along at a pace or two behind and then we will all become one.
I know there will be some that will be horrified at my saying this but to be honest, if that meant we had more and better aircraft to operate I would welcome the change. As for Future MoD spending I cannot see this present Government applying any substance to its promises and hence we will continue spiralling into the abyss until we can no longer make do.
Mutley Four,
I respect and in many ways agree with your capability v cap badge debate but I'm less optimistic about a successful outcome. Why?
1. SABR was killed off the moment that Buff Hoon trumpeted the £3Bn on helicopters bit (ie, £1.5Bn less than previously promised) and then rolled the Merlin & AH CSPs into the pot. With the then £1.5Bn ish allocated to Flynx it killed off SABR as a viable project.
2. There is a notional replacement for the Puma, it's called the Puma HC.2 and will, finally, feature most of the stuff that the Puma boys have been crying out for since the 1980s (eg Makila engines). The SK4 community is getting a similar "replacement" as the capital funds to re-capitalise SH have been blown propping up sacred cows and two unpopular wars.
3. The "final solution" to Puma/SK4 is the re-christened "Future Medium Lift" project, which is a gilt edged opportunity for Abbey Wood Apparatchiks to fritter away millions in (another) meaningless Assessment phase before somebody realises that the "bow wave" of today is going to be a hell of a lot worse in 2014-17 (when FML is due to start production for an IOC of 2017) and cancel it. When you consider the fitting out of 2 carriers, full-rate production of JSF/A400 etc and FRES is around the same time you see the reason for my pessimism. My belief is that RW will suffer, again, as the Single Services strive to maintain their "core" equipment programmes. They all hope that these inconvenient RW-centric wars will be over by then so they can focus on buying the flash toys they really want.
Despite being a crab, the answer is not to give the RAF all RW platforms. I don't trust the Senior hands not to f**k-over rotary (esp AH) to give the FW boys what they want. I think that RW needs to have a its own TLB with no cap-badge/uniform issues. Nirvana I know, but if we don't, to paraphrase Pete Townsend, we'll just get fooled again...
I respect and in many ways agree with your capability v cap badge debate but I'm less optimistic about a successful outcome. Why?
1. SABR was killed off the moment that Buff Hoon trumpeted the £3Bn on helicopters bit (ie, £1.5Bn less than previously promised) and then rolled the Merlin & AH CSPs into the pot. With the then £1.5Bn ish allocated to Flynx it killed off SABR as a viable project.
2. There is a notional replacement for the Puma, it's called the Puma HC.2 and will, finally, feature most of the stuff that the Puma boys have been crying out for since the 1980s (eg Makila engines). The SK4 community is getting a similar "replacement" as the capital funds to re-capitalise SH have been blown propping up sacred cows and two unpopular wars.
3. The "final solution" to Puma/SK4 is the re-christened "Future Medium Lift" project, which is a gilt edged opportunity for Abbey Wood Apparatchiks to fritter away millions in (another) meaningless Assessment phase before somebody realises that the "bow wave" of today is going to be a hell of a lot worse in 2014-17 (when FML is due to start production for an IOC of 2017) and cancel it. When you consider the fitting out of 2 carriers, full-rate production of JSF/A400 etc and FRES is around the same time you see the reason for my pessimism. My belief is that RW will suffer, again, as the Single Services strive to maintain their "core" equipment programmes. They all hope that these inconvenient RW-centric wars will be over by then so they can focus on buying the flash toys they really want.
Despite being a crab, the answer is not to give the RAF all RW platforms. I don't trust the Senior hands not to f**k-over rotary (esp AH) to give the FW boys what they want. I think that RW needs to have a its own TLB with no cap-badge/uniform issues. Nirvana I know, but if we don't, to paraphrase Pete Townsend, we'll just get fooled again...
Why not an Omani style Super Lynx 300 for the RN, and a mix of Super Lynx 300 and AW149 for the AAC (BRH/BLUH)? OK Super Lynx is not as capable as a Future Lynx but is still a very respectable piece of kit, already developed and available off the shelf - presumably at a much lower price, and fulfilling the political needs of keeping Westland in business.
And just buy a few dozen fully folding Merlins to replace Puma/Sea King, with a handful of NHI NH90s if you absolutely have to have a smaller helicopter as well. (Or more AW149s?)
You buy proven kit, off the shelf, and are also buying British.
And just buy a few dozen fully folding Merlins to replace Puma/Sea King, with a handful of NHI NH90s if you absolutely have to have a smaller helicopter as well. (Or more AW149s?)
You buy proven kit, off the shelf, and are also buying British.
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"Why not an Omani style Super Lynx 300 for the RN, and a mix of Super Lynx 300 and AW149 for the AAC (BRH/BLUH)? OK Super Lynx is not as capable as a Future Lynx but is still a very respectable piece of kit, already developed and available off the shelf - presumably at a much lower price, and fulfilling the political needs of keeping Westland in business"
Problem is Jacko, it's still Lynx, and I for one Struggle to justify the platform. I make this statement genuinely, I don't see the direction or the overall end game for an airframe that can't justifiably sell itself to the field army. It can't lift the smallest combat unit at any altitude/temp and, as the shopping list reduces the combat effectivness in "real terms", then ISTAR falls short of that provided by AH, which is in rotary terms, world class, and getting better. AH + SH > Lynx (no Money!). you can all do the math better than I........
PP
Problem is Jacko, it's still Lynx, and I for one Struggle to justify the platform. I make this statement genuinely, I don't see the direction or the overall end game for an airframe that can't justifiably sell itself to the field army. It can't lift the smallest combat unit at any altitude/temp and, as the shopping list reduces the combat effectivness in "real terms", then ISTAR falls short of that provided by AH, which is in rotary terms, world class, and getting better. AH + SH > Lynx (no Money!). you can all do the math better than I........
PP
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I think before anything significant happens on the new equipment front you have to get rid of the present government who have never made any commitment to the armed forces and have, frequently, carried out not so subtle campaigns against re-equipment of the armed forces. There are many in the Labour party who would happily see the armed forces disappear altogether and to achieve this they will delay, hinder or block anything that looks like an improvement.
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In three days time AW start to build the first FLynx - which is the aircraft the MoD have spec'd and order BTW.
The MoD have spent so much money during the different phases to cover up their indecision and lack of bo***cks that to cancel the order now would be a huge insult not only to the british public who'sm money they have wasted but also to the people we are expecting to fight and die for our country.
Those from the AAC say that they don't want it, well what the hell do you want? Do you really think that buying from EC or Sikorsky will be any cheaper?
We have been discussing the URD for almost 10 years and you guys still haven't got what you want or so you say! If you cannot influence decision in 10 years then accept that you have to take what you get..
I am absolutley sick and tired of reading threads where people constantly slag off those who dare to take a risk or make a decision - FLynx was never going to keep everyone happy but what is done is doen so buy into it!
I suspect that FLynx will go, but what then? Still a gap in the AAC and RN's capability, 100s of millions wasted and we are still no better off!
The MoD have spent so much money during the different phases to cover up their indecision and lack of bo***cks that to cancel the order now would be a huge insult not only to the british public who'sm money they have wasted but also to the people we are expecting to fight and die for our country.
Those from the AAC say that they don't want it, well what the hell do you want? Do you really think that buying from EC or Sikorsky will be any cheaper?
We have been discussing the URD for almost 10 years and you guys still haven't got what you want or so you say! If you cannot influence decision in 10 years then accept that you have to take what you get..
I am absolutley sick and tired of reading threads where people constantly slag off those who dare to take a risk or make a decision - FLynx was never going to keep everyone happy but what is done is doen so buy into it!
I suspect that FLynx will go, but what then? Still a gap in the AAC and RN's capability, 100s of millions wasted and we are still no better off!