Hercules inquest.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Al,
I disagree, I don't think its a red herring. And you've contradicted yourself in para 3 anyway.

In the battle between the 'Operators' and the 'Beancounters' someone has to stick their neck out. If there is no documentary evidence, then many people will have a share of the blame.

If you believe in something but are doomed to failure, you can at least say 'Can I have that in writing, Sir?'

At Kinloss, I threatened to redress my Sqn Ldr for not signing my mileage claim. Some rubbish about him being the budget holder and I should have got the train. This is no idle boast, OC PSF put his hat on and met me on the steps of SHQ to politely ask me to return to work where my boss was sat waiting to sign my claim. They're still talking about my 15 mins of fame.

[Chugalug2]

I hope that in years to come, when people are still recalling your 15 mins SPHLC, they also recall Sqn Ldr Chris Seal. Standing up for what he believed in cost him his career he said, but he still went ahead and said what he had to. What was that? That the Hercules should be fitted with ESF. When did he demand that? In 2002!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6410247.stm

[rudekid]

Chugalug

Most of the posters on here will know Flip Seal pretty well I'm sure.

I suspect the reporting by the BBC does him few favours, but a one-man-sword-diving-safety-crusader, I suspect not!

I'm sure Flip would probably agree himself.

SPHLC is correct, ESF wasn't pushed very hard by anyone, operator or beancounter. It wasn't pulled hard by anyone up the command chain either. These things are a two way process, nothing gets staffed without a lot of effort from the coalface and the staff chain.

Anyone from Lyneham who tells you they fell on their sword over ESF prior to XV179 is a fantasist.

[Al R]

Sir Peter,

Sure.. anyone can be a wise Crusader after the event.

But are we saying that we need to have a system not where function and effectiveness rules supreme, but where management process has to be seen to be done so that after the event, we can file all the loose ends away nicely and everyone can sleep soundly? Was it a case of people in staff appts not wanting to attach their name to a dead duck cause? Or was nobody switched on enough to question why it had been used by the Americans for 40 years? Did anyone drive it hard enough, did anyone do a proper risk appreciation? Perhaps it was all tied up in EDS management fees? Perhaps thats the real reason..

Whatever, this isn't a particularly edifying sight is it? I wonder if there are any more hand grenades waiting to go off in the dhobie basket.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Chug

Now we're getting warmer!

Knowing that Sqn Ldr Seal went to the trouble of writing a sqn order about Samsonites being not very tactical, and not taken to the desert, I am looking forward to seeing his 15 mins of fame.

Did he have a large boxfile under his arm?

(My understanding of the circumstances of his 'constructive dismissal' are about something different, but equally outrageous, and can be found hidden deep in the Ascoteers Multiple Choice

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ultiple+Choice

No doubt he will tell us soon, being a PPRuNer with a poorly disguised username.

Al,

I'm just saying to my workmates - Never give up, but when you know you're right but destined to fail - get some top cover

edited to add:-

I have just noticed that 'Sqn Ldr Chris Seal told the BBC...'

Is he at the Inquest or not?

[airsound]

rudekid, perhaps you should listen to this, from 'Today' on Radio 4 in March 2007. You need to scroll down to time 0755, where it says

We speak to former squadron leader Chris Seal who tried to warn his superiors of the dangers facing Hercules aircraft five years ago.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/listenagain_20070302.shtml

airsound

[rudekid]

Airsound

Thanks for the link, I think had heard it previously, but had forgotten.

I stand by my comments above, it's interesting that ESF isn't mentioned by Flip in his first 'memo and email' isn't it? Other threats granted, but the first items he lists were fitted by the time 179 was shot down, flight deck armour, NVG compatability and a DAS are the first three he mentions.

Even he admits he hadn't heard of ESF until much (6 months?) later. Suspect some clever BBC editing here...

Anyhow, this isn't about Flip!

As I have previously stated, ESF wasn't being pushed or pulled particularly hard. Other things were much higher up the list of 'wants' at the time.

Please note, I'm not saying that ESF is not important or relevant, just that we need to be realistic how it fits into the argument here.

[Been There...]

Good on you Flip!!

[Chugalug2]

I suspect the reporting by the BBC does him few favours, but a one-man-sword-diving-safety-crusader, I suspect not!....
Please note, I'm not saying that ESF is not important or relevant, just that we need to be realistic how it fits into the argument here.

But he did (or says he did) push his concerns up the CoC, and even outside the CoC. Perhaps that is why he is not celebrated. By being the one person to do anything he automatically steps outside the group. Perhaps he is even seen as disloyal, "letting the side down", "pulling the rug from under the boss" etc. Once the team turns its back on you, you are heading for a fall. As to all this talk of "Pulling" and "Pushing", it is the Air Staff's job to ensure that HM's aircraft are Fit for Purpose, ie Airworthy. Whether or not Sqn Ldr Seal knew or didn't know of ESF before or after a certain date is immaterial. The Air Staff knew of it before the first K was delivered from Marietta, and decided against it, and maintained that policy when ordering the J. If 179 hadn't happened the great bulk of people would still not know about ESF, but the Air Staff always did and despite knowing that experience in using the Hercules in war in Vietnam had led the USAF to fit it as standard thereafter chose not to follow suit. That they continued to do so in the face of urgent and non standard entreaties from at least one man is a comment on them alone. Would that there were more such messengers, but I imagine the casualty rate amongst them would be prohibitive.

[Al R]

.. it is the Air Staff's job to ensure that HM's aircraft are Fit for Purpose, ie Airworthy. Whether or not Sqn Ldr Seal knew or didn't know of ESF before or after a certain date is immaterial. The Air Staff knew of it before the first K was delivered from Marietta, and decided against it, and maintained that policy when ordering the J. If 179 hadn't happened the great bulk of people would still not know about ESF, but the Air Staff always did and despite knowing that experience in using the Hercules in war in Vietnam had led the USAF to fit it as standard thereafter chose not to follow suit.

Agreed.

We get told (and accept) how dangerous the theatre is, so the aircraft are modified. The aircrews wear body armour, the cockpits are hardened.. so why aren't the fuel tanks protected too? Is the RAF really saying that it never knew of ESF? I maintain my earlier point about ignorance being no excuse. I find it utterly inconceivable that the system has the audacity to suggest that it relies on wide eyed juniors (Sqn Ldr Seal) to slide sideways on the polished parquet into the RAF boardroom at the 11th hour, gasping 'Hey.. hold that order for the new Mess curtains and that American computerised personnel administration system! The Americans have been using something called.. bear with me sirs, I have the brochure here somewhere (rustle of papers).. ESF for 40 years.. has anyone else heard of it during their long and distinguished careers in global military aviation, or was I simply lucky enough to come across it by chance?'.

If LAC f#ckknuckle XX Sqn RAF Regiment dissregarded some vital part of SROs about not saluting the flag at breakfast, or not polishing his boots to a deep lustre, he would expect to get hammered. He is taught that ignorance is no excuse. Surely, its not too implausible for the Air Staff to be subject to the same measure of accountability? The retrofit is costing £26 million or so. Thats the bottom line about this - lets stop kidding ourselves. But why did no one say; 'Chaps. It'll add possibly £17 million to tick the options list pre-delivery. The consequences of not fitting it? Well. Forget the loss of life for the moment. How about the fleet downtime, the cost in engineering man hours and the reduced AT availability when we're stretched anyway? How about the tangible cost of losing 1 aeroplane, and the intangible cost to morale, faith in the system, credibility and goodwill?'. But did they say that? And if so, who overruled it? And if not, why not?

Sir Peter,

Accepted.. but isn't that a damning indictment in itself? It goes back to my point about quality of leadership. Someone made a cost benefit analysis and got it wrong. Badly. Simple. End of story. And its that person who needs to be smartly presented to the Inquest, and he needs to explain why he prioritised so, and what was contingent upon him which complelled him to make such a decision. Is it going to happen? Is it fu#k. I hope the Defence Select Committee is sharpening the office pencils in anticipation of a damned public impaling. How many more cock ups are going to happen before someone scratches their chin and muses on the effectiveness of the current system?

(Has anyone else tried the Fairtrade strength 5 ground coffee? Splendid stuff, and currently 1/3 off in Oakham Co-Op)

[chappie]

i may be shot down here for my comments, i may be discounted as a civvie with poor knowledge and a one sided belief in this case.
it is very difficult to see where certain people are coming from with their comments. the one thing i want to make clear is this....ESF is something that I believe in. i do not peddle nor wish to influence the views of anyone or speak on anyones behalf. this has only been my fight because this is what i believe in.
truckkie, please PM me. i really would love to have the chance to discuss the info you disclosed but without an open forum.
i understand the concentration on documentary evidence is paramount but i really do wish to stress that this no way undermines the fact that people have spoken of it and it's merits(ESF). the people who are in court and so far quoted by the meeja are only one of many people within the forces and unless there is an open invitation to anyone who has discussed foam and are happy to be witnesses then as far as i am concerned it will be a one sided presentation. although it has been portrayed that the MoD are being open and they wish to direct the meeja's attention to that fact and as such have addresed them to bring attention to this point. the important point to note is in fact that unless we had not made the application in first place the info would not be out there in the public forum!

[BEagle]

From The Sunday Times

April 6, 2008

Special forces ‘tried to menace’ Hercules death-crash witness

Michael Smith

A SENIOR figure in Britain’s special forces has been accused of trying to intimidate a key witness in the inquest into the shooting down of an RAF special forces aircraft over Iraq in 2005.

The C-130 Hercules aircraft was on its way from Baghdad to a special forces base at Balad, 42 miles north of the Iraqi capital, when it was attacked by insurgents more than three years ago.

It was hit by machinegun fire and what was believed to be a rocket-propelled grenade, setting off an explosion in a fuel tank in a wing that destroyed the aircraft and killed all 10 men on board.

The claim of intimidation has been made by Nigel Gilbert, a former special forces pilot who, since the crash, has led a campaign to force the Ministry of Defence to pay for explosive suppressant foam that could have prevented the disaster.

Gilbert wrote to David Masters, the Wiltshire coroner, on Friday, saying he had been threatened with arrest by officials who claimed to be working for a senior special forces figure. They allegedly said they were going to detain Gilbert and “extract” information about who was briefing him on his campaign.

Gilbert, 43, from Swindon, said his first warning came from a former colleague who is still serving. The colleague was told by someone working for the senior special forces figure to inform Gilbert that his contacts with the media were being watched and that he should be careful what he said.

A second warning came via the coroner’s investigating officer, who told Gilbert he had also been asked to warn Gilbert not to speak to the press. Gilbert, who denies talking to the media about the special forces, was relatively unconcerned at this point.

It was the third warning that led to Gilbert becoming seriously worried. The former colleague contacted him on Friday to say that he had been interviewed officially at RAF Lyneham, Wiltshire by two men who said they were working for the senior special forces figure.

In his letter to the coroner, Gilbert said the former colleague “was told that [the senior figure] was attempting to secure information in order to act against me for unsubstantiated breaches of the Official Secrets Act”.

“They told him that [they] knew I was being fed information from Lyneham and that when they ‘pulled me’ they would extract who was leaking information.” The inquest into the deaths of the 10 men opened at Trow-bridge town hall last Monday and is scheduled to last four weeks. Gilbert is one of the main witnesses, with two days set aside for his evidence.

The special forces involvement has led the MoD to take extensive security measures. It has forced relatives of the dead men to sign gagging orders preventing them from revealing details of evidence released to them.

A board of inquiry revealed that the C-130 Hercules, from 47 Squadron based at RAF Lyneham, was flying at about 150 feet. It is believed to have been scouting for landing strips for special forces operations.

The lawyer for the family of one of the dead men said last week that the RAF’s Air Warfare Centre had told him the Hercules should not be flying “at low altitude in daylight”.

The inquest is expected to hear criticism of the MoD for its failure to fit explosive suppressant foam in the Hercules. As as result of Gilbert’s campaign, most now have the foam fitted.

The MoD denied any intimidation of Gilbert. “There is no truth to the allegation,” a spokeswoman said. “We take alleged breaches of the Official Secrets Act very seriously. Revealing capability or tactics to anyone not serving in the special forces can endanger lives.”

[tucumseh]

This development can be seen as an extension of the MoD’s campaign of deceit and lies in this and other related cases. Such bullying tactics are employed by MoD as a management tool, and are common.

It is an indication that the truth is close and, typically, no sacrificial lamb is available – that there is evidence linking senior staffs to the decision that Duty of Care, safety and airworthiness are optional extras. In addition, that is, to written rulings by a DPA Executive Director, upheld by CDP and Min(AF).

Much of the supporting evidence is actually being revealed in the Nimrod case. It is important to understand that the processes, procedures and regulations that MoD admits were ignored are common to all aircraft, and so management decisions like the above do not relate to one incident, but are pan-MoD.

[Chugalug2]

With inevitable incompetence HMG ensures that what little credibility and gravitas it could still muster is swept away in a scenario that could have been scripted by the Krays. Respect to Nigel for standing up to these goons. Despair for my poor country that such people are in charge of it.
I trust now that anyone who has evidence for this inquest presents themselves, and it, as a matter of honour.

[Tappers Dad]

Nige

The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

Martin Luther King Jr

KEEP STANDING NIGE, KEEP STANDING

[mary_hinge]

Nige

Nige.
Can you clear your inbox, not got your other contact details to hand. Thanks

Edit to add:
The joys of travel and being behind the news, sorry Nige. Some late thoughts that I'll ensure are passed on....M

[Doppler High]

Well done Nigel, keep up the good work (Mick Smith too).

Can black Omegas get down your road??!!

[JessTheDog]

Given that the gentleman is to appear as a witness at an inquest, this sounds like Conspiracy To Pervert The Course Of Justice to me.....

They picked the wrong guy as well....

[effortless]

"Pervert" even

[Al R]

My (limited, admittadly) impression of Nige is that he is far too astute and far too decent to spill the beans about anything to do with SF. His argument is not with them. Its with the twonks who didn't fit EFS and this is just another instance of the MoD trying to cover its corporate backside by muddying the water in a cackhanded manner. And it will eat itself one day. The further the MoD goes down this route of diluting service ethos of honour and integrity and putting the men first, and instead trying (badly) to play civvy street at its own game and hiding behind absurd civvy practice, the louder the calls will become for Airmen's Federations and the like. And the irony is, it will have no one to blame but itself.

The RAF f#cked up over EFS, simple. I wonder where those are who allowed this to happen and why the MoD doesn't go after them instead of the likes of Nige, in such an amateurish and embarrassing manner? Oh, of course.. they're probably senior figures within the system, right?

Stick with it Nige. All the best.