RAN Seasprites
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Somerset, UK
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In 1997 Westlands were finishing off Merlin Mk1 and knew exactly what was involved with an integrated tactical system. It is possible that the Super Lynx price was higher than Seasprite as a result. This reinforces that risk has to be part of a selection criteria, cheapest is not always best.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sydney, AU
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It's not a question of what helicopter could've been better, it's that the project should never have existed once the OPV was cancelled.
Seahawk was already deployed on warships but the request for a new helicopter went ahead anyway.
Seahawk was already deployed on warships but the request for a new helicopter went ahead anyway.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
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The RNZN Seasprites [actually operated and maintained by 6 Sqn RNZAF], are not comparable to the Australian model cancelled. Ours were purchased SH-2G at the same time as Australia, but with different avionics, and the New Zealand aircraft were new-build airframes, not rebuilt American SH-2Fs. The first RNZAF SH-2G was delivered in mid-2001, the last was delivered February 2003.
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All 5 RNZN Seasprites are operational and have accumulated several thousands of flying hours. As we have no fanadago super integrated mission system, auto pilot etc we can it always get in the air. Just goes to prove the old adage, 'Keep it simple stupid'.
Join Date: Mar 2004
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My mind isn't what it used to be, but wasn't there some joint procurement psrocess with the RNZN, who jumped the gun and ordered the S-2, thus more or less forcing the RAN to order them? Or was that something else?
Join Date: Jan 2001
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From memory......
.....NZ signed a contract with Kaman Aerospace in June 1997, the same month as the Aussie deal was put to paper.
The big difference is that the RNZN Seasprites have already entered service in the RNZN. They were purchased on the basis of how many were needed, and not how many can they could get for the money.They were also not a hung with unproven and state-of-tomorrow equipment but a previously tested model that was already operating successfully in the United States.
New Zealand looked ahead to a useful operational life for the planes of 25 years. For this, new rather than 40 year old refurbished air frames, were preferred. And this provided certainty in build scheduling and costs.They cost more than the antique air frames [some more than 40 years-old] chosen by the Aussies. About $3 million additional for each one, but in the end it was a more prudent way to go, and they've been in service for five years!
God only knows what the Aussie deal will cost by the time Kaman sues them.
The big difference is that the RNZN Seasprites have already entered service in the RNZN. They were purchased on the basis of how many were needed, and not how many can they could get for the money.They were also not a hung with unproven and state-of-tomorrow equipment but a previously tested model that was already operating successfully in the United States.
New Zealand looked ahead to a useful operational life for the planes of 25 years. For this, new rather than 40 year old refurbished air frames, were preferred. And this provided certainty in build scheduling and costs.They cost more than the antique air frames [some more than 40 years-old] chosen by the Aussies. About $3 million additional for each one, but in the end it was a more prudent way to go, and they've been in service for five years!
God only knows what the Aussie deal will cost by the time Kaman sues them.
They're gone....
Kaman press release:
Interesting to see who would buy them, and what kit will be removed before the sale/hand-over 
It's our money, Bruce
Kaman Corp. (Nasdaq: KAMN) reported today that its subsidiary, Kaman Aerospace International Corporation (Kaman), has reached an agreement with the Commonwealth of Australia that establishes mutually agreed terms for conclusion of the SH-2G(A) Super Seasprite program.
Under the terms of the Agreement, ownership of the 11 SH-2G(A) Super Seasprite helicopters will be transferred to Kaman along with spare parts and associated equipment. The transfer is subject to US government approval and the Commonwealth will carry out that process, which could take several months. Thereafter, Kaman will seek to sell the aircraft to another customer or customers and will share the proceeds of each sale with the Commonwealth under a pre-established formula. Kaman has agreed that at least $37 million (US) of such payments will be made to the Commonwealth regardless of sales, with at least $25 million (US) to be paid by March 2011, and $6 million (US) each in years 2012 and 2013. Under the agreement, Kaman will forego payment on approximately $35 million (US) in net unbilled receivables in exchange for the helicopters, spare parts and equipment, which will be recorded as inventory. The value of this inventory is expected to exceed the amount of the net unbilled receivables and the guaranteed payments.
In commenting on the agreement, Neal J. Keating, chairman, president and chief executive officer of Kaman Corporation, said, "We appreciate the Australian government's willingness to work with us to develop a mutually satisfactory path to conclude their Super Seasprite program. We are also pleased to have the opportunity to sell these highly capable aircraft to another customer."
The Kaman Super Seasprite is currently serving with the governments of Egypt, New Zealand and Poland. The aircraft also served with distinction as a front-line U.S. Navy helicopter, where its reliability and durability were well respected.
Kaman Corp. conducts business in the aerospace and industrial distribution markets.
Under the terms of the Agreement, ownership of the 11 SH-2G(A) Super Seasprite helicopters will be transferred to Kaman along with spare parts and associated equipment. The transfer is subject to US government approval and the Commonwealth will carry out that process, which could take several months. Thereafter, Kaman will seek to sell the aircraft to another customer or customers and will share the proceeds of each sale with the Commonwealth under a pre-established formula. Kaman has agreed that at least $37 million (US) of such payments will be made to the Commonwealth regardless of sales, with at least $25 million (US) to be paid by March 2011, and $6 million (US) each in years 2012 and 2013. Under the agreement, Kaman will forego payment on approximately $35 million (US) in net unbilled receivables in exchange for the helicopters, spare parts and equipment, which will be recorded as inventory. The value of this inventory is expected to exceed the amount of the net unbilled receivables and the guaranteed payments.
In commenting on the agreement, Neal J. Keating, chairman, president and chief executive officer of Kaman Corporation, said, "We appreciate the Australian government's willingness to work with us to develop a mutually satisfactory path to conclude their Super Seasprite program. We are also pleased to have the opportunity to sell these highly capable aircraft to another customer."
The Kaman Super Seasprite is currently serving with the governments of Egypt, New Zealand and Poland. The aircraft also served with distinction as a front-line U.S. Navy helicopter, where its reliability and durability were well respected.
Kaman Corp. conducts business in the aerospace and industrial distribution markets.
It's our money, Bruce
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Seasprite
Can I just get this story straight? just read thru the post but still half asleep......
The Australian government (read taxpayers) has spent 1.3 billion dollars on new helicopters based on 40 year old airframes, they don't work, are 7 years late and would need more money to be operational by 2011. So that would make them 10 years overdue. Due to the nature of the deal done with Kaman, DoD doesn't even have the option of disposing of them as they see fit, after 1.3 billion?! Is this the same project contract where the suppliers for years have a team of specialists in Australia on full pay idle because the aircraft are not operational?
So in effect, someone has found a way to turn 1.3 billion into nothing and still have liabilities! (they should have bought gold at 1990's prices). Where has the money gone? i.e. has Kaman made profit (therefore adding shareholder value) on a huge contract supplying nothing of use?!
In the meantime the Kiwi's ordered helicopters with new airframes and have been in service since 2002?!
Please tell me I've got it wrong, it's just a bad dream..........
Octane
The Australian government (read taxpayers) has spent 1.3 billion dollars on new helicopters based on 40 year old airframes, they don't work, are 7 years late and would need more money to be operational by 2011. So that would make them 10 years overdue. Due to the nature of the deal done with Kaman, DoD doesn't even have the option of disposing of them as they see fit, after 1.3 billion?! Is this the same project contract where the suppliers for years have a team of specialists in Australia on full pay idle because the aircraft are not operational?
So in effect, someone has found a way to turn 1.3 billion into nothing and still have liabilities! (they should have bought gold at 1990's prices). Where has the money gone? i.e. has Kaman made profit (therefore adding shareholder value) on a huge contract supplying nothing of use?!
In the meantime the Kiwi's ordered helicopters with new airframes and have been in service since 2002?!
Please tell me I've got it wrong, it's just a bad dream..........
Octane
Join Date: Aug 2007
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What is going to happen to all those Penguin missiles the RAN bought years ago for the Sea Sprite? They can surely use these on the Seahawk....surely?
PS: the USN do use Penguins on Seahawks ie. possible off the shelf modification.
Kiwi PPRuNer
Join Date: May 2000
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the kiwis originally got some old bangers to tide them thru till the new builds arrived, they first ordered 4 then an additional one was ordered a couple of years later, (given that they only have 2 frigates), the only serious problem they had was when an aussie exchange pilot slammed one into the deck and it had to be sent back to kaman for repairs, the kiwis only went for that aircraft because the aussies did,
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We have had 2 damaged, one by the Aussie Testpilot during First Of Class Flight Trials and one during a ground resonance incident when ground running on board.
We will have 5 aviation capable ships once all the OPVs are in service, so 5 aircraft will be more than fully utilised!
We will have 5 aviation capable ships once all the OPVs are in service, so 5 aircraft will be more than fully utilised!
