Northrup Grumman/EADS win USAF tanker bid

[Lee Norberg]

Northrop Grumman KC-45A

First of all, it's Northrop Grumman- not Northrup Grumman. Maybe a bit picky, but let's spell it right.



http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123088392

[brickhistory]

So it's Spamspeak for 'serviceman' then? ('Man' as in 'human', before the wimmin complain.....). 'tis rather a silly term

Hmm, so the US Department of Defense some four-five years ago starts using an admittedly 'silly' term designed to get all motivated about being engaged in a war when only a small proportion are actually on combat ops and they didn't consult BEagle about it.

I'm shocked and disappointed..................

Of course it doesn't appear in the Cambridge Dictionary either.

Neither did F-4, L-1011, C-17, and soon to be F-35, and yet one could/will find them in the area. Strange?

One wonders about the KC-45/whatever being featured there one day as well.

[FJ2ME]

What The Hell Are We Doing?!

So, to summarise the USAF is buying 179 of the KC-30 for $40 billion (lets call it £19 billion), thats a price of £106 million per airframe.

We, on the other hand, are paying £13 billion for 9 airframes (AFAIK). Thats a price of £1.44 BILLION each. That means the US is getting their 13.5 times cheaper..! WTF?!! this is an outrage to put it mildly. But the maths reveals further facts...

I know that ours is a 27-year contract, but these numbers mean that if we bought outright a fleet of 9, and replaced them EVERY 3 YEARS FOR 27 YEARS for brand new ones, it would cost circa £8.5 billion. THATS A SAVING OF £4.5 BIILION OVER THE FSTA DEAL!!!!! And thats if we got nothing for the second hand ones... Put another way, we could BUY 122 frames for the price we are paying to lease 9. 122!! WAKE THE F@C% UP MOD!!!

I hope (in vain I know) that the dimwits in MOD read this and finally realise what everyone else realised ages ago; WE ARE BEING RIPPED OFF.

I'm sorry for all the cursing and shouting but this would be funny if it wasn't actually happening... I feel like a pedestrian watching a motorway pile-up unfold....

Off to buy EADS shares now...

[giblets]

F-35A

Does this mean that the USAF will start putting probes on their F-35A's? Would make sense to allow them simultaneous hook ups.

[Navaleye]

Off to buy EADS shares now

Having worked in US Military procurement, competing vendors have the right to appeal an award. In some cases twice. Boeing of course have nothing to lose by an appeal, EADS has everything.

[0497]

Does this mean that the USAF will start putting probes on their F-35A's? Would make sense to allow them simultaneous hook ups.

Not sure about the specifics but, the B and C models intend to have probes so maybes it's as easy as ticking the right box.

[Jig Peter]

Protests ?

I think there was a "no protest" clause in the original RFP, and if Boeing wants to scream, their lawyers will have to do some sophisticated scrabbling ... After all, the 767's not an "all-American" product either, with bits coming from both Japan & Italy (whence the 767 tankers they're saddled with)In the civil market, the A330 has firmly sat on the 767 anyway - leading Boeing to do the 777, which at least sat on the A340 when it got unlimited ETOPS certification.
In the meantime, Northrop Grumman will have to do some wuick work to get the buildings up & running ... Apparently the scheme is for the sections to be built in Europe as now, then ferried to Mobile for final assembly, Mobile thus replacing Toulouse. Also, all A330 (civil) Freighters will be assembled over there too, which must have been a nice incentive.
F-35 Will use the centre-line FBW "prodder", being to USAF specs...
737 replacement. Quite a few years down the line, as it (and an A320 replacement) will need a totally new power plant to get the reductions in fuel consumption potential customers are wanting. Engine-makers busy in their experimental shops with geard fans and things ...

[mlc]

"The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) invested GBP27.6 million (USD54 million) in gaining advice on private finance initiatives (PFI) in Financial Year 2006/07 (FY06/07), figures released on 25 February have revealed. The information was contained in a written answer from Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Minister for Veterans) Derek Twigg"

I'm sure we're getting our moneys worth!!

[GeeRam]

The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) invested GBP27.6 million (USD54 million) in gaining advice on private finance initiatives (PFI) in Financial Year 2006/07 (FY06/07), figures released on 25 February have revealed.

Beggers belief.......

[anotherthing]

If American srviceman (and women) are 'Warfighter', does that make GWB a Warmongerer?

[Jig Peter]

Flightglobal reports the price for the first 68 "KC-45As" as $178 millon per aircraft.
There are also reports that the Private bit of the AirTransport consortium can't get suitable terms now that credit has got crunched ... Even if the KC-45/30/MRTT/whatever is UK Gov's preferred choice, it'll be a long time (IMO) before the Veteran Transport/Refueller fleet's modernised ... Sorry Guys ...

[BEagle]

"The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) invested GBP27.6 million (USD54 million) in gaining advice on private finance initiatives (PFI) in Financial Year 2006/07 (FY06/07), figures released on 25 February have revealed."

Here's how to save £26 600 000 from the Defence Budget:

"Dear MoD. PFI - don't go there!

Yours faithfully, BEagle

PS - Please note attached consultancy invoice for £1 000 000!"

[GreenKnight121]

Well, Boeing says "there will be no layoffs, personnel will transfer to other lines and areas", like B-787, ICAV, etc. There might be fewer replacements for retiring/voluntarily-leaving workers, but no layoffs. If Boeing had won the KC-X, they had planned on hiring up to 9,000 more workers over the next few years, however.

Apparently, some sources claim there are enough remaining B-767 orders to keep the line open until ~2012 at the current, reduced production rate.

The real clincher here is the A330 freighter portion of the contract. While some estimates place the domestic content of the KC-767 at ~60%, and ~35-40% for the KC-45A, note that NG will be building at least as many freighter A330s as KC-45As... and 40% of around 400 aircraft is more than 60% of just under 200.

I had not known of the freighter "sweetener" Airbus threw in, that makes a major economic difference.

As for the USAF fighters, all you need is this:
you don't need to plumb the aircraft for the probe... the ARTS fixes this problem nicely--- you just use your normal fuel-transfer system to fill all your tanks.

http://www.sargentfletcher.com/ars.htm



http://www.sargentfletcher.com/ars_c...m#ARTS%20Table

[Archimedes]

Does:

“Once we have reviewed the details behind the award,” Boeing said, “we will make a decision concerning our possible options, keeping in mind at all times the impact to the warfighter and our nation."

Translate as:

"Given that General Moseley has said he wants the new tankers yesterday, it has been quietly suggested to us that it would be unhelpful and possibly even unpatriotic to make too much of a fuss about this one" ? Or am I being unduly cynical in my old age?

[HalloweenJack]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/afp/2008030...y-3c8ed92.html

WASHINGTON (AFP) - US lawmakers have reacted angrily after the US military awarded a 35-billion-dollar aircraft deal to Europe's Northrop Grumman/EADS group, in a major blow to US manufacturers Boeing.

"It's stunning to me that we would outsource the production of these airplanes to Europe instead of building them in America," said Republican Senator Sam Brownback about the Pentagon's decision.
"I'll be calling upon the Secretary of Defense for a full debriefing and expect there will be a protest of the award by Boeing."

and so it begins - the political fall out and law suites - it looks like the USAF will not get what they want so soon.

[Jackonicko]

"I think there was a "no protest" clause in the original RFP, and if Boeing wants to scream, their lawyers will have to do some sophisticated scrabbling ... After all, the 767's not an "all-American" product either, with bits coming from both Japan & Italy (whence the 767 tankers they're saddled with)"

Any more detail/sourcing for that clause, anyone?

[MarkD]

Boeing has been breaking records with the 787 outsource so it's a bit much to wrap themselves in the flag about KC-767. I wonder how the French crews who fly the C-135FR feel today, if any of them are reading the comments from western US today about their country?

Those who worry about RAF's place in the queue need not worry - the Rivet Joint deal has provided a clear path to the solution to their tanker worries: why send a replaced KC-135 to the boneyard when you can offload it to the Brits?

Meanwhile, in Washington State:

Tom Wroblewski, president of Machinists Union District 751, called the Air Force decision ill-considered.

"Airbus does not even currently build a tanker," he said. "It is a paper airplane only

Maybe Airbus could persuade the Australians to let them do a low fly over Mr Wroblewski's house with EC-330 to show him otherwise. I didn't think the KC-767 as proposed for the competition (with the hybrid bits of -200s and -400s etc.) existed either, just the less capable ones sold to Italy and Japan.

Airbus have been guilty of paper-plane promises (A400M for instance) but Mr Wroblewski (whose unions had their "mission accomplished" banners ready) should remember that:

1. It's better to be a winner or a loser but not a sore loser (adapted from The West Wing)
2. The Machinists might want to organise that factory in Mobile.

February 29:

Cynthia Cole, president of Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace (SPEEA), the white-collar engineering union at Boeing, said she thought company leadership has done everything possible to remove the stigma of past scandals.

"I would hope it had nothing to do with that," she said of today's decision.

Uh, maybe it had something to do with this? February 22:

SPEEA President Cynthia Cole said she's advising members to set aside part of their 2007 incentive bonuses the company began to pay Wednesday, as well as a portion of coming paychecks.

"I'm starting my strike fund," she said.

[knowitall]

Boeing has been breaking records with the 787 outsource so it's a bit much to wrap themselves in the flag about KC-767.

it is a bit "pot calling the kettle black" isn't it

here's an article on the subject, seems some 767 assemblies are also made in japan

http://www.custac.buffalo.edu/docs/O...nalPaper30.pdf


Asigning a nationality to a modern airliner is almost as much of a nonsense as doing the same with a car these days


Your right hand drive VW.............built in South Africa

Porsche Boxter...........Finland

[fdcg27]

Hell has frozen over.
Is there anyone out there, including those at EADS and NG, who actually foresaw this outcome?
Still, early days yet. The Air Force is now in the position of submitting what amounts to a Request to Purchase to Congress. While Boeing may not make any formal protest within the procurement process, nothing stops them from quietly meeting with various folks in Congress.
Should the next president be a Democrat (not unlikely IMHO), and should the next Congress have larger Democratic majorities (likely IMHO), all bets are off.

[D-IFF_ident]

Another thing to consider.... How many KC-135s are there at the moment? 450 is it? Was this contract not for less than 200 frames? Does that not leave space for future procurement, or is the USAF going to reduce its tanker fleet by around 60%? And what of the National Guard et al?