Illustrious heads to sea - with an airgroup
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WEBF
Unless the Captain is a little confused on what ship he was on, then no. It was Illustrious according to the AIS which was clearly stating Illustrious!!
Dilligence which was supposed to be with the Lusty i thought? is currently playing about off Plymouth also...
Unless the Captain is a little confused on what ship he was on, then no. It was Illustrious according to the AIS which was clearly stating Illustrious!!
Dilligence which was supposed to be with the Lusty i thought? is currently playing about off Plymouth also...
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Didn't get too far before she had to turn around again....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/h...re/7236326.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/h...re/7236326.stm
Oh dear. More problems.
However, in a real war/crisis I guess that oily water seperators being unservicable would not be a major consideration. But in peacetime things are different and environmental concerns have to be considered.
Perhaps the fact that most of the money intended for ship upkeep is being spent elsewhere in the MOD budget is starting to bite.....
However, in a real war/crisis I guess that oily water seperators being unservicable would not be a major consideration. But in peacetime things are different and environmental concerns have to be considered.
Perhaps the fact that most of the money intended for ship upkeep is being spent elsewhere in the MOD budget is starting to bite.....
WEBF,
Maybe you're right. Who in the MoD could possibly want to reassign money to fighting two almost totally landlocked wars (and the Treasury) from a (currently) irrelevant ship deployment programme?
When we win them both the money can be reassigned to less critical areas......
Sorry chap, but if this is the price for trying to keep the boys at the front safe with the kit they need then so be it.
Maybe you're right. Who in the MoD could possibly want to reassign money to fighting two almost totally landlocked wars (and the Treasury) from a (currently) irrelevant ship deployment programme?
When we win them both the money can be reassigned to less critical areas......
Sorry chap, but if this is the price for trying to keep the boys at the front safe with the kit they need then so be it.
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Maybe you're right. Who in the MoD could possibly want to reassign money to fighting two almost totally landlocked wars (and the Treasury) from a (currently) irrelevant ship deployment programme?
Yes let's scrap the Navy, sod em, they do nothing. That Typhoon thingy will save the day. Long range, strategic, power projector that it is.
b Jockey
NGB,
I'm going to need a bigger boat...no pun intended!
Please look back through my posts, you will see that while, yes I'm a crab, I am fully supportive of F35/CVF and am ambivalent towards Tranche 3 of Typhoon in the current climate. At no time have, nor will, I jump on the "bin the Navy" bandwagon. Power projection is quite possibly best provided, in a theoretical future war by theoretical future Carriers. It just as easily might be done by an LPH full of Helos, or, if time critical by Typhoon (provided HNS was available).At the moment, it is being provided by the AT and SH forces, CHF and JFH. Please secure (with two clips) your reversionary banter.
The point I make is that if we are robbing Peter (ship husbandry) to pay Paul (two concurrent Medium scale enduring conflicts) then some thing has to give. IMHO launching a task group to the other side of the world is a very noble, retention positive piece of PR for the UK. The fact that it seems we can't do it properly is testement to the parlous state of Defence. I say again, in the current climate are exercises like this justified? Before you get all dark blue defensive again, yes I would put Red Flag et al in the same pot, and the ability of the Army to moan about Harmony yet continue to find time/resources to go to Belize etc.
The bottom line is that we're all suffering for environmental training and large overseas exercises. I'm afraid, until we fight an enemy with a credible submarine force (and, oh yes, some coastline....) in many people's opinion these kind of exercises and such need to run on a shoestring if they are to be run at all.
I'm going to need a bigger boat...no pun intended!
Please look back through my posts, you will see that while, yes I'm a crab, I am fully supportive of F35/CVF and am ambivalent towards Tranche 3 of Typhoon in the current climate. At no time have, nor will, I jump on the "bin the Navy" bandwagon. Power projection is quite possibly best provided, in a theoretical future war by theoretical future Carriers. It just as easily might be done by an LPH full of Helos, or, if time critical by Typhoon (provided HNS was available).At the moment, it is being provided by the AT and SH forces, CHF and JFH. Please secure (with two clips) your reversionary banter.
The point I make is that if we are robbing Peter (ship husbandry) to pay Paul (two concurrent Medium scale enduring conflicts) then some thing has to give. IMHO launching a task group to the other side of the world is a very noble, retention positive piece of PR for the UK. The fact that it seems we can't do it properly is testement to the parlous state of Defence. I say again, in the current climate are exercises like this justified? Before you get all dark blue defensive again, yes I would put Red Flag et al in the same pot, and the ability of the Army to moan about Harmony yet continue to find time/resources to go to Belize etc.
The bottom line is that we're all suffering for environmental training and large overseas exercises. I'm afraid, until we fight an enemy with a credible submarine force (and, oh yes, some coastline....) in many people's opinion these kind of exercises and such need to run on a shoestring if they are to be run at all.
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The point I make is that if we are robbing Peter (ship husbandry) to pay Paul (two concurrent Medium scale enduring conflicts) then some thing has to give.
How about the locks on the Treasury's purse being what gives?
Wouldn't that be better?
NGB
Having "had a go" at Evalu8ter are you going to have the courtesy to respond to his well reasoned response!!
All of us in the Army/Navy/RAF can lobby the government/MOD for more money, rather than indulging in interservice bun fights, but at the end of the day we have to do the best with the budget we are ultimately given, which means prioritising.
Some people see an RN deployment to the far east as a pretty low priority given the current state of play in Iraq/Afghanistan. Is this part of a bash the RN push, no, it just happens to be said on a thread on an RN deployment.
If you read pprune regularly you will see how often a crab lead "srap the Red Arrows thread" crops up, and how often the crabs debate on pprune the wisdom of buying all the Typhoons when we are short of SH and AT. (By the way, neither of those are necessarily my personal opinions!). Many people believe that when money is tight you spend it on things that matter. Your job is to convince the readers that an RN "peacetime" deployment is more important than more helos, machine guns, ammunition, Royal Marines on the ground, etc. (I know the money won't be transferred, but people aren't always logical!!).
Having "had a go" at Evalu8ter are you going to have the courtesy to respond to his well reasoned response!!
All of us in the Army/Navy/RAF can lobby the government/MOD for more money, rather than indulging in interservice bun fights, but at the end of the day we have to do the best with the budget we are ultimately given, which means prioritising.
Some people see an RN deployment to the far east as a pretty low priority given the current state of play in Iraq/Afghanistan. Is this part of a bash the RN push, no, it just happens to be said on a thread on an RN deployment.
If you read pprune regularly you will see how often a crab lead "srap the Red Arrows thread" crops up, and how often the crabs debate on pprune the wisdom of buying all the Typhoons when we are short of SH and AT. (By the way, neither of those are necessarily my personal opinions!). Many people believe that when money is tight you spend it on things that matter. Your job is to convince the readers that an RN "peacetime" deployment is more important than more helos, machine guns, ammunition, Royal Marines on the ground, etc. (I know the money won't be transferred, but people aren't always logical!!).
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Farcical!
This has gone from the mildly amusing to bordering on the farcical...
If the Navy cannot manage to put a "my little pony" class ship to sea how do they expect to manage with a half decent sized thing?
As an ex-Engineer in the Merchant Navy I'm amazed that a not particularly old ship, which has spent much of it's life tied up alongside, and recently had a £120 million refit cannot go to sea. Any heads to roll? In the Merchant Navy it'd be a case of "bye-bye Chiefy" at the very least.
Anyway why doesn't someone simply fix the O.W.S? Not exactly a complicated piece of kit is it? Can't image spares would be that hard to source, as in this case it's not an original fit but relatively new. Worst case scenario, as we are only talking a 20,000 tonne ship it's going to be a dinky toy anyway, buy a new one!
I can understand budget requirements etc, but this ship has recently had a £120,000,000 refit so kind of think that lack of funds can't really be sited as a valid arguement.
If the Navy cannot manage to put a "my little pony" class ship to sea how do they expect to manage with a half decent sized thing?
As an ex-Engineer in the Merchant Navy I'm amazed that a not particularly old ship, which has spent much of it's life tied up alongside, and recently had a £120 million refit cannot go to sea. Any heads to roll? In the Merchant Navy it'd be a case of "bye-bye Chiefy" at the very least.
Anyway why doesn't someone simply fix the O.W.S? Not exactly a complicated piece of kit is it? Can't image spares would be that hard to source, as in this case it's not an original fit but relatively new. Worst case scenario, as we are only talking a 20,000 tonne ship it's going to be a dinky toy anyway, buy a new one!
I can understand budget requirements etc, but this ship has recently had a £120,000,000 refit so kind of think that lack of funds can't really be sited as a valid arguement.
francophile69
You have no idea of how the MOD operates. JIT, RAB, LEAN etc etc.
Can't image spares would be that hard to source, as in this case it's not an original fit but relatively new. Worst case scenario, as we are only talking a 20,000 tonne ship it's going to be a dinky toy anyway, buy a new one!
The MOD doesn't keep vast stocks of spares. See the above sentence.
I can understand budget requirements etc, but this ship has recently had a £120,000,000 refit so kind of think that lack of funds can't really be sited as a valid arguement.
Is it the same budget?
Evalu8tor
I nearly bit too! I hear what you say, and largely agree, but I expect you will agree that this a rather risky approach to defence.
Who knows where the next crisis will be? After Afghanistan and Iraq it seems probable that they will have more than a few miles of coastline, and pose a real threat in the air and/or at sea? If we didn't have control of the maritime and air environments, neither Telic or Herrick could be supported.
Incidentally there is significant naval involvement in the war on terror.
You have no idea of how the MOD operates. JIT, RAB, LEAN etc etc.
Can't image spares would be that hard to source, as in this case it's not an original fit but relatively new. Worst case scenario, as we are only talking a 20,000 tonne ship it's going to be a dinky toy anyway, buy a new one!
The MOD doesn't keep vast stocks of spares. See the above sentence.
I can understand budget requirements etc, but this ship has recently had a £120,000,000 refit so kind of think that lack of funds can't really be sited as a valid arguement.
Is it the same budget?
Evalu8tor
I nearly bit too! I hear what you say, and largely agree, but I expect you will agree that this a rather risky approach to defence.
Who knows where the next crisis will be? After Afghanistan and Iraq it seems probable that they will have more than a few miles of coastline, and pose a real threat in the air and/or at sea? If we didn't have control of the maritime and air environments, neither Telic or Herrick could be supported.
Incidentally there is significant naval involvement in the war on terror.
WEBF,
Agree. And it is a shame that the RNs role at the moment (with the exception of CHF / Naval Strike Wing) is largely unnoticed.
I agree that a balance must be struck between the needs of today and not getting caught with our pants down tomorrow. My gut feeling is that the balance is not quite right at the moment; happy to hear an opposing view!
PS-If I'd REALLY wanted you to bite I would have mentioned the SHAR!!!
Agree. And it is a shame that the RNs role at the moment (with the exception of CHF / Naval Strike Wing) is largely unnoticed.
I agree that a balance must be struck between the needs of today and not getting caught with our pants down tomorrow. My gut feeling is that the balance is not quite right at the moment; happy to hear an opposing view!
PS-If I'd REALLY wanted you to bite I would have mentioned the SHAR!!!
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WEBF
Granted, being used as I am to an unlimited maintenance budget I clearly am not familiar with "JIT, RAB, LEAN" et al
I also understand I have no place posting on this forum, and I stand suitably chastised. However having grown up with a RAF upbringing I find some of the threads extremely interesting, although I wouldn't dream of contributing to them.
Personally though in this case, I just wonder if your ability to recite and therefore almost condoning (albeit perhaps unwittingly) the aforementioned Acronyms is perhaps indicative of the malaise in the MOD.
Spend all that money and then blame it on the "system" when it doesn't work.
The point I was trying to make was that it is ridiculous to spend that sort of money and end of with a vessel incapable of going to sea. I'm not sure how familiar you are with ship's systems but fridge plants and Oily Water Seperators are not exactly on a par with major main engine breakdowns, (regardless of whose budget it should come under!) and if it is suffering these breakdowns I am amazed it is having such serious repercussions.
I'd imagine P&O would be more than happy to be able to withdraw their ships for months at a time, every 20 years and spend over £100 million on them. Can you imagine them then having to cancel cruises because the O.W.S. or the fridge plant doesn't work, sorry it's inconceivable.
To merely quote JIT (whatever that means) etc is missing the point, this ship is not at sea for trivial reasons (granted in different circumstances she would sail regardless).
Granted, being used as I am to an unlimited maintenance budget I clearly am not familiar with "JIT, RAB, LEAN" et al
I also understand I have no place posting on this forum, and I stand suitably chastised. However having grown up with a RAF upbringing I find some of the threads extremely interesting, although I wouldn't dream of contributing to them.
Personally though in this case, I just wonder if your ability to recite and therefore almost condoning (albeit perhaps unwittingly) the aforementioned Acronyms is perhaps indicative of the malaise in the MOD.
Spend all that money and then blame it on the "system" when it doesn't work.
The point I was trying to make was that it is ridiculous to spend that sort of money and end of with a vessel incapable of going to sea. I'm not sure how familiar you are with ship's systems but fridge plants and Oily Water Seperators are not exactly on a par with major main engine breakdowns, (regardless of whose budget it should come under!) and if it is suffering these breakdowns I am amazed it is having such serious repercussions.
I'd imagine P&O would be more than happy to be able to withdraw their ships for months at a time, every 20 years and spend over £100 million on them. Can you imagine them then having to cancel cruises because the O.W.S. or the fridge plant doesn't work, sorry it's inconceivable.
To merely quote JIT (whatever that means) etc is missing the point, this ship is not at sea for trivial reasons (granted in different circumstances she would sail regardless).
In fairness, the amount spent on the refit was best part of four years ago, since when she's been worked very hard (although I grant you, nowhere near as hard as your average containership, offshore supply vessel, Ro-Ro etc).
During that four years, the maintenance budget for the ship has been continually eroded, so that although she may be alongside (as she has been since December) the ability to actually do anything is much reduced. The ships staff don't own the budget and believe it or not have to get the OK from the IPT (MESH) before they get into the kit.
You are correct, fridge plants and OWS are not particularly complicated, but if you can't get the spare (either because it's not in the stores system or because you have to order it and get the budget OK) then you're stuffed.
This sort of incident is going to happen more frequently as the last four years of reduced support coupled with ships being run well beyond their design lives kicks in.
During that four years, the maintenance budget for the ship has been continually eroded, so that although she may be alongside (as she has been since December) the ability to actually do anything is much reduced. The ships staff don't own the budget and believe it or not have to get the OK from the IPT (MESH) before they get into the kit.
You are correct, fridge plants and OWS are not particularly complicated, but if you can't get the spare (either because it's not in the stores system or because you have to order it and get the budget OK) then you're stuffed.
This sort of incident is going to happen more frequently as the last four years of reduced support coupled with ships being run well beyond their design lives kicks in.