A dereliction of duty
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Tigs, when the problems with legal aid costs with the Herc families became knowledge, the response was staggering. Some highly esteemed barristers came forward and offered their services free of charge. The real problem was the cost of the work done by the solicitor.
I am with you on this, I sincerely hope this is not settled out of court. We all need to know, what exactly a duty of care means and to what extent it exists on the battlefield. I fully expect the MoD to settle this one out of court, sadly it normally involves some kind of gagging order.
These paras have already shown how extraordinarily brave they are, could it be that this is the one?
This is what Ingram stated in a letter to HCDC on 30 Mar 06, in response to my own concerns expressed to HCDC earlier.
"...CSAR;
He is concerned about our CSAR capability for forthcoming operations in Afghanistan and alleges that the Afghanistan task "has all the hallmarks of a rushed deployment". There are rescue plans, but for reasons of operational security, and to protect our troops, I cannot provide details of them; I do not want to compromise the safety of our troops should a situation arise. In terms of our planning for the next stage of tasking in Afghanistan, you will have gathered from the evidence I provided on 7 Mar this year that our deployment of more troops to Afghanistan is long-planned and part of a coherent international plan...."
I am with you on this, I sincerely hope this is not settled out of court. We all need to know, what exactly a duty of care means and to what extent it exists on the battlefield. I fully expect the MoD to settle this one out of court, sadly it normally involves some kind of gagging order.
These paras have already shown how extraordinarily brave they are, could it be that this is the one?
This is what Ingram stated in a letter to HCDC on 30 Mar 06, in response to my own concerns expressed to HCDC earlier.
"...CSAR;
He is concerned about our CSAR capability for forthcoming operations in Afghanistan and alleges that the Afghanistan task "has all the hallmarks of a rushed deployment". There are rescue plans, but for reasons of operational security, and to protect our troops, I cannot provide details of them; I do not want to compromise the safety of our troops should a situation arise. In terms of our planning for the next stage of tasking in Afghanistan, you will have gathered from the evidence I provided on 7 Mar this year that our deployment of more troops to Afghanistan is long-planned and part of a coherent international plan...."
Last edited by nigegilb; 13th Jan 2008 at 16:33.
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Minigundiplomat Wrote:
For the record the same goes for the IRT in Iraq - it is our number 1 priority and Merlins carry a team of doctors, nurses and medics. It goes without saying we pull out all of the stops to get injured soldiers to hospital in the shortest possible time.
I am sure the Chinook crew did all that they could to try and recover Cpl Mark Wright and his colleagues - if there had been a way I'm sure they would have found it and made it happen.
GB2
It doesn't say if his son was in Iraq or Afghanistan, but if he was in Afghanistan there would have been a Chinook, with a team of medics including a surgeon on 30 min standby to pick hime up anywhare in the AO.
Weather, servicability and workload are just not a factor. The IRT IS OUR NO 1 PRIORITY.
Can't speak for Iraq.
Weather, servicability and workload are just not a factor. The IRT IS OUR NO 1 PRIORITY.
Can't speak for Iraq.
I am sure the Chinook crew did all that they could to try and recover Cpl Mark Wright and his colleagues - if there had been a way I'm sure they would have found it and made it happen.
GB2
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The bonus system was imposed by the Treasury and heartily disliked as a pointless and divisive exercise.
The key to a bonus is meeting one's annual objectives that have been agreed with one's line manager. The harder the objectives the higher the bonus in one of only 4 layers - approximately these are £0 - £700 - £1200 - £1600. Peanuts really at the workers' grades.
A bonus can be awarded even is some objectives have not been met. Equally no bonus might be awarded even if all objectives are met.
Objectives are set and agreed in May (last year). When I get mine I will let you know how difficult they were.
PS, sorry I forgot, my Line Manager said he would not be setting objectives this year but would discuss our performance in the mid-year review in November.
PPS, sorry forgot again. He said he would not be doing a mid-year review as he did not believe in them, unless we wanted one. Man after my own heart.
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Originally Posted by Wingswinger 
What sort of bonus do MoD Civil Servants get for coming up with ways of making savings on/reductions to the defence budget?
What sort of bonus do MoD Civil Servants get for coming up with ways of making savings on/reductions to the defence budget?
WRT to the winch situation I would like to offer some conjecture.
The person i/c winches is dealing with winches not aircraft, and may not have had the benefit of a military officer in the decision chain who could point out the operational impact of withdrawing all winches from service simultaneously. Why the SEngOs concerned were ignored/didn't protest (delete as applicable) is also a mystery.
This is why it is so important for IPTs to have a military presence.
And for those dyed in the wool despisers of civil servants there are a lot of ex-military in the MoD; some of whom completely p**s off their colleagues because they focus on the front line not the bottom line.
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I was out on Saudi in 2003 with the F3s who were enforcing the southern no fly zone. One day all flying was cancelled as due to a few broken A10s there FOB commander decided there was not adequate CSAR cover. Another A10 was immediately flown in from Germany and flight resumed as soon as it was ready.
So the US Military wont put the people under their command into harms way without effective CSAR so why do the UK Military? When proper CSAR assets are not available the USAF pulled out all the stop to get aircraft into theatre at commendable speed. The RAF can't, they don't have the aircraft or the resources.
So the US Military wont put the people under their command into harms way without effective CSAR so why do the UK Military? When proper CSAR assets are not available the USAF pulled out all the stop to get aircraft into theatre at commendable speed. The RAF can't, they don't have the aircraft or the resources.
Glad the BOI set out the facts... straight.
However, this Government is absolutely shameless. Expect the white paint (always on tap with them) to be liberally applied.
Lads - my respects. Is their any sort of fund we can contribute to assist their legal battle?
However, this Government is absolutely shameless. Expect the white paint (always on tap with them) to be liberally applied.
Lads - my respects. Is their any sort of fund we can contribute to assist their legal battle?
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A real shame. I had not seen the full story of what happened that sad day.
I just think to be there for 5 hours bleeding your life ebbing away, waiting ...and waiting.
You choose to serve but when things go wrong you just get cr@ped on. So glad my kids do not want to join the services.
I just think to be there for 5 hours bleeding your life ebbing away, waiting ...and waiting.
You choose to serve but when things go wrong you just get cr@ped on. So glad my kids do not want to join the services.
So glad my kids do not want to join the services.
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Thought I would post an extract of Sean's article on the tragedy written in June of last year.
Wounded British troops are being evacuated from the battlefield more slowly than the Americans managed in Vietnam 40 years ago, one of the Army's most senior surgeons has revealed.
Lt Col Paul Parker says hospitals could run out of blood, oxygen and drugs if more than two seriously wounded troops arrived at the same time
In a withering attack on defence medical policy, Lt Col Paul Parker condemned the treatment of injured troops in Iraq and Afghanistan as being "excessively slow". He blamed the delays on "too much middle management".
Several soldiers have died in Afghanistan following delays in deploying a helicopter and medical crew, The Sunday Telegraph has learnt.
Col Parker, an orthopaedic surgeon who has served on operations in Iraq, Afghanistan, the Balkans and Sierra Leone, said a fundamental failing of British defence policy was that the military still lacked a "dedicated all-weather medical helicopter fleet", specifically designed to rescue battlefield casualties.
He also said that British hospitals in Iraq and Afghanistan could not cope with mass casualty emergencies and could run out of blood, oxygen and drugs if more than two seriously wounded troops arrived at the same time.
Col Parker, 45, who is parachute-trained and has served on numerous special forces operations, is the first British officer publicly to voice his concerns over the treatment of casualties.
Writing in the Royal Army Medical Corps Journal, he said: "In Vietnam, wounded soldiers arrived in hospital within 25 minutes of injury. In Iraq in 2005, that figure is 110 minutes, on Operation Herrick IV, (Afghanistan 2006 ) the average pre-hospital time was seven hours. A casevac [casualty evacuation] request has to go through too many layers of command. There seems little point in providing high-technology in-hospital care when our patients still take several hours to travel a few miles to us.
"We use support or anti-tank helicopters that are re-roled on an ad hoc basis for the critical care and transport of our sickest patients. We still do not have a dedicated all-weather military helicopter evacuation fleet. Should we not be asking why? We have gone backwards in terms of our evacuation time-lines."
Col Parker said that the limitations of the medical facilities available in Afghanistan were such that just two seriously injured casualties could "exhaust" the available blood, drugs and oxygen kept at the main medical centre in Camp Bastion in only "17 hours".
Tony Blair promised that commanders in Afghanistan could have whatever equipment they needed to achieve their mission
He described the British ambulances as "antediluvian" and revealed that the laboratory at Camp Bastion, which is used to match blood and test samples, had to close between 11.30am and 3.30pm because the air-conditioning system could not keep the temperature below 97F (36C).
He also revealed that there had been no CT scanner, which is used in the diagnosis of brain injury, in the field hospital in Afghanistan for more than a year. A unit finally arrived in Helmand province this month.
Last year, Tony Blair promised that commanders in Afghanistan could have whatever equipment they needed to achieve their mission. He said in a radio interview: "Whatever package they want, we will do."
A senior colleague of Col Parker said that his report had the support of every member of the defence medical services and that it was regarded by the Ministry of Defence as an "inconvenient truth".
Last year, Cpl Mark Wright and six other soldiers spent six hours in a minefield in Afghanistan because no suitable helicopter was available to rescue them. Cpl Wright died of his injuries and three survivors had legs amputated.
Wounded British troops are being evacuated from the battlefield more slowly than the Americans managed in Vietnam 40 years ago, one of the Army's most senior surgeons has revealed.
Lt Col Paul Parker says hospitals could run out of blood, oxygen and drugs if more than two seriously wounded troops arrived at the same time
In a withering attack on defence medical policy, Lt Col Paul Parker condemned the treatment of injured troops in Iraq and Afghanistan as being "excessively slow". He blamed the delays on "too much middle management".
Several soldiers have died in Afghanistan following delays in deploying a helicopter and medical crew, The Sunday Telegraph has learnt.
Col Parker, an orthopaedic surgeon who has served on operations in Iraq, Afghanistan, the Balkans and Sierra Leone, said a fundamental failing of British defence policy was that the military still lacked a "dedicated all-weather medical helicopter fleet", specifically designed to rescue battlefield casualties.
He also said that British hospitals in Iraq and Afghanistan could not cope with mass casualty emergencies and could run out of blood, oxygen and drugs if more than two seriously wounded troops arrived at the same time.
Col Parker, 45, who is parachute-trained and has served on numerous special forces operations, is the first British officer publicly to voice his concerns over the treatment of casualties.
Writing in the Royal Army Medical Corps Journal, he said: "In Vietnam, wounded soldiers arrived in hospital within 25 minutes of injury. In Iraq in 2005, that figure is 110 minutes, on Operation Herrick IV, (Afghanistan 2006 ) the average pre-hospital time was seven hours. A casevac [casualty evacuation] request has to go through too many layers of command. There seems little point in providing high-technology in-hospital care when our patients still take several hours to travel a few miles to us.
"We use support or anti-tank helicopters that are re-roled on an ad hoc basis for the critical care and transport of our sickest patients. We still do not have a dedicated all-weather military helicopter evacuation fleet. Should we not be asking why? We have gone backwards in terms of our evacuation time-lines."
Col Parker said that the limitations of the medical facilities available in Afghanistan were such that just two seriously injured casualties could "exhaust" the available blood, drugs and oxygen kept at the main medical centre in Camp Bastion in only "17 hours".
Tony Blair promised that commanders in Afghanistan could have whatever equipment they needed to achieve their mission
He described the British ambulances as "antediluvian" and revealed that the laboratory at Camp Bastion, which is used to match blood and test samples, had to close between 11.30am and 3.30pm because the air-conditioning system could not keep the temperature below 97F (36C).
He also revealed that there had been no CT scanner, which is used in the diagnosis of brain injury, in the field hospital in Afghanistan for more than a year. A unit finally arrived in Helmand province this month.
Last year, Tony Blair promised that commanders in Afghanistan could have whatever equipment they needed to achieve their mission. He said in a radio interview: "Whatever package they want, we will do."
A senior colleague of Col Parker said that his report had the support of every member of the defence medical services and that it was regarded by the Ministry of Defence as an "inconvenient truth".
Last year, Cpl Mark Wright and six other soldiers spent six hours in a minefield in Afghanistan because no suitable helicopter was available to rescue them. Cpl Wright died of his injuries and three survivors had legs amputated.
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I know I won't be seeing a f****ng bonus. 
As mentioned before, I had most delight in seeing Military and ex-Military Civil servents slugging it out with 'finance depts' and industry, focusing more on troops in slightly warm and dusty places rather then say, corporate logos or other frivalous items. Many civil servents do get mightly annoyed with the process and hoops needed to jump through to do their job.
I went to F'bough in 2006, Finmecanicca (and by default- AWhl) had a very nice looking CSAR cabin mockup of a AW101. The rear mounted 7.62/.50 cal folded down from the roof if I recall.
Infact, I remember standing there, waiting for something loud and fast to take off, and a Merlin crept up on everyone around us, no one heard it coming towards us, until someone pointed it when it was landing.
As mentioned before, I had most delight in seeing Military and ex-Military Civil servents slugging it out with 'finance depts' and industry, focusing more on troops in slightly warm and dusty places rather then say, corporate logos or other frivalous items. Many civil servents do get mightly annoyed with the process and hoops needed to jump through to do their job.
I went to F'bough in 2006, Finmecanicca (and by default- AWhl) had a very nice looking CSAR cabin mockup of a AW101. The rear mounted 7.62/.50 cal folded down from the roof if I recall.
Infact, I remember standing there, waiting for something loud and fast to take off, and a Merlin crept up on everyone around us, no one heard it coming towards us, until someone pointed it when it was landing.
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This is how certain MP's see the troops complaints. Perhaps this low-life should go and trot around a minefield. 
The suffering of the troops caught in the minefield and the utter frustration of watching their colleague bleed to death is unimaginable.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770
The suffering of the troops caught in the minefield and the utter frustration of watching their colleague bleed to death is unimaginable.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770
Champagne anyone...?
Interesting point made by the col medic a few posts up; why don't we have dedicated casevac helos? Not knocking the good work done by the current helos in theatre but surely it would work better for everyone if we had a couple of medivac cabs on 24hr stby, fully kitted out and ready to go? That would free up the heavy lift to concentrate on the ops stuff.
I suppose such a request/idea would go in the same MoD tray as the requests for a battalion of sharks with frickin laser beams on their heads. Much further down the list than the MoD request for £1000 office chairs blah blah blah.....
Just a thought.
I suppose such a request/idea would go in the same MoD tray as the requests for a battalion of sharks with frickin laser beams on their heads. Much further down the list than the MoD request for £1000 office chairs blah blah blah.....
Just a thought.
