Knee Surgery barring entry to the military
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Knee Surgery barring entry to the military
I am posting in this forum rather than the medical section as I know the problem with my knee is not a problem for the CAA Class 1 Medical.
Basically I snapped my Anterior Cruciate Ligament skiing in January 07. I had my ligament reconstructed in July 07, following the successful operation I have just finished my 6 months of intensive physio rehab so that I can now run again and look to get back into full contact sports by April.
I applied to the Royal Navy as aircrew, passed my aptitude tests with high scores then injured myself before I could get to AIB. I informed the Navy about my operation and postponed my application. It was only through my own enquiries that I discovered my injury may be a problem so I spoke to the medical board at CAAMBS and they made me TMU for 6 months, which was fine. However on further enquiry I spoke to the Surgeon Commander at CAAMBS who then made me PMU for service (probably should have kept my mouth shut!)
Since then I have applied to the RAF, outlining my injury straight away so as not to go through the long process only to be turned down by the medical team at OASC. The RAF have now also barred me from entry (into any branch-not just aircrew) because of my surgery.
The Navy's claim was that my knee would not be strong enough to cope with the movement of a small ship at sea, or climb the ladders on a larger ship. I find these reasons ludicrous! My knee is now very stable and I am easily fit enough to pass the fitness test. A snapped ACL is clearly a common injury, many footballers come back to be just as good (Shearer, Gasgoine, Owen etc).
I was wondering if anyone has come across anyone serving in the Navy/RAF who has suffered a torn ACL either before/during service so I could gain some advice in trying to persuade the medical teams that my knee will be fine for service?!
Any advice at all will be much appreciated
(Sorry for the long post)
Basically I snapped my Anterior Cruciate Ligament skiing in January 07. I had my ligament reconstructed in July 07, following the successful operation I have just finished my 6 months of intensive physio rehab so that I can now run again and look to get back into full contact sports by April.
I applied to the Royal Navy as aircrew, passed my aptitude tests with high scores then injured myself before I could get to AIB. I informed the Navy about my operation and postponed my application. It was only through my own enquiries that I discovered my injury may be a problem so I spoke to the medical board at CAAMBS and they made me TMU for 6 months, which was fine. However on further enquiry I spoke to the Surgeon Commander at CAAMBS who then made me PMU for service (probably should have kept my mouth shut!)
Since then I have applied to the RAF, outlining my injury straight away so as not to go through the long process only to be turned down by the medical team at OASC. The RAF have now also barred me from entry (into any branch-not just aircrew) because of my surgery.
The Navy's claim was that my knee would not be strong enough to cope with the movement of a small ship at sea, or climb the ladders on a larger ship. I find these reasons ludicrous! My knee is now very stable and I am easily fit enough to pass the fitness test. A snapped ACL is clearly a common injury, many footballers come back to be just as good (Shearer, Gasgoine, Owen etc).
I was wondering if anyone has come across anyone serving in the Navy/RAF who has suffered a torn ACL either before/during service so I could gain some advice in trying to persuade the medical teams that my knee will be fine for service?!
Any advice at all will be much appreciated
(Sorry for the long post)
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On a serious note....
You are obviously gutted. A course mate had the same injury occur during flying training. He never recovered to the situation where he could comfortably operate the rudder pedals on long flights and particularly during Aerobatics. He was subsequently removed from flying training on medical grounds. I should also add that he failed survival training due to his injury preventing him from yomping, in boots, over rough ground for 450 miles + (over course of 12 days in the field).
If you have been rejected then it is time to move on to a civvy flying career. As you have passed military flying aptitude tests, I think you would cream CTC or Oxford Aviation aptitude tests and could then do an integrated course of flying right upto frozen ATPL. With CTC you don't even need any funds as you can borrow it all from HSBC.
Good Luck.
You are obviously gutted. A course mate had the same injury occur during flying training. He never recovered to the situation where he could comfortably operate the rudder pedals on long flights and particularly during Aerobatics. He was subsequently removed from flying training on medical grounds. I should also add that he failed survival training due to his injury preventing him from yomping, in boots, over rough ground for 450 miles + (over course of 12 days in the field).
If you have been rejected then it is time to move on to a civvy flying career. As you have passed military flying aptitude tests, I think you would cream CTC or Oxford Aviation aptitude tests and could then do an integrated course of flying right upto frozen ATPL. With CTC you don't even need any funds as you can borrow it all from HSBC.
Good Luck.
MFWF
I don't think it matters who you are and what state your knees are in. A survival course where you average 37.5 miles a day over rough ground, on foot, is going to hurt!
Do you think you may have exaggerated the mileage, just a tad?!
BV
Do you think you may have exaggerated the mileage, just a tad?!
BV
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I've been going through all the fleets trying to work out where we put such mighty Aircrew as MFWF's mates?! All the ones I've met appear to be of a shape that would not lend itself to such exertion 
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I don't think it matters who you are and what state your knees are in. A survival course where you average 37.5 miles a day over rough ground, on foot, is going to hurt!
Do you think you may have exaggerated the mileage, just a tad?!
BV
Do you think you may have exaggerated the mileage, just a tad?!
BV
Anyway, I never, ever, in all my years have exaggerated and never ever will till the day I die.
It bloody felt like 450 miles. I definately remember moving only at night (did the course in Feb so was dark for a good 12 hours) and we yomped for most of that. This is the older RN/RM SMAC AIR 424 course BTW not the RAF version.
Post survival course most aircrew do indeed balloon in size, mainly on account that they hadn't had anything to eat (excpet a squirrel or chicken) for 12 days during the course.
All the same, the bloke with the gammy leg lasted less then 48 hours and he thought he was fully fit.
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Cheers for the quick reply Mustflywillfly
Apologies for the Gazza inaccuracies!
Since being turned down in November I have taken the time to get over the disappointment and have actually applied to CTC and OAT. It was only on bumping into a Naval doctor yesterday that sparked my interest in appealing as he seemed to think the decision was absolutely ridiculous. He snapped his Achilles and still serves with the Marines in Iraq. I personally don’t see how they can make the decision without actually seeing me perform the fitness test and proving how strong my knee is. By the time I potentially joined it would be over a year since surgery so I don’t think I'd have any problems at all with rudder peddles or yomping (according to my physio it will be 100% if not stronger). However, how likely do you think it is that the Surgeon Commander will change his mind!? I definitely think it is worth pursuing but like you say I’m happy to move onto civvy if they refuse to consider me any further.
Apologies for the Gazza inaccuracies!
Since being turned down in November I have taken the time to get over the disappointment and have actually applied to CTC and OAT. It was only on bumping into a Naval doctor yesterday that sparked my interest in appealing as he seemed to think the decision was absolutely ridiculous. He snapped his Achilles and still serves with the Marines in Iraq. I personally don’t see how they can make the decision without actually seeing me perform the fitness test and proving how strong my knee is. By the time I potentially joined it would be over a year since surgery so I don’t think I'd have any problems at all with rudder peddles or yomping (according to my physio it will be 100% if not stronger). However, how likely do you think it is that the Surgeon Commander will change his mind!? I definitely think it is worth pursuing but like you say I’m happy to move onto civvy if they refuse to consider me any further.
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The problem you have is that there are other candidates with no history of injury or surgery and just as much aptitude, who thus present a lower risk. I'm not saying that risk differential is large, but it's there.
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Almost deja-vu here. A friend I went through BRNC and DEFTS with (I got chopped, he got Linton, there is some justice in life) had a knee injury some years before joining and was turned down by the RAF - after several UAS years. RN took him quite happily and it didn't hold him back at all! I don't know how old you are (although I'm guessing 22!), but it might be worth taking a few years of civvy life and then reapplying having done the appropriate physio and retrained yourself back up to peak fitness. Quite apart from anything else, this demonstrates the committment and perseverance that AIB love to see.
Jimbob.....I had both my kneecaps removed before going aircrew and although not a pilot had a few hurdles to leap through as the medics at OASC were intrigued at how I could even apply for aircrew. Same at basic training they all wondered...... Flew as aircrew for the next 30 years and never had a problem with any medicals. I know the injury is not the same but it did not bar me from any duties or restrict my flying zone. Keep trying if that is what you really want. PM me if you require any other details.
This will no doubt be seen as being pedantic by some and not in the same circumstances by others. However, may I refer you to Douglas Bader.
Not only did he not have any ligaments, he was also missing the rest of his legs, something that you may want to remind the medics if you did decide to appeal. Yes, the situation is slightly different in that it was a war of national survival and he was already in service when his accident happened and had already passed officer & flying training and was, legs apart, a known risk. However, he was denied service on the grounds of his legs - or lack of. He still managed to prove that a lack of legs needn't be too much of an issue.
However, I suspect that there are other factors at play which may not be immediately apparent to a civilian. Given the relatively arduous nature of IOT (my course had tendons, ligaments and all sorts snapping, stretching, breaking & twisting on some of the more arduous exercises, and that even included the supposedly fit Regt wannabes), I wouldn't be at all surprised if they have one eye on potential litigation & compensation payouts if you happened to do some real damage during training. In the current litigious climate, that wouldn't be totally out of the question; after all, some civi typist working in the RAF got nearly £500,000 for hurting her thumb typing - they are probably terrified of what they might have to pay you if you really biffed your legs during training.
As an aside, I would on the surface agree that is all pish and nonsense. Mate of mine has had his knee re-built twice whilst in the RAF and he is doing just fine. But as I said, suspect there are other factors at play.
Not only did he not have any ligaments, he was also missing the rest of his legs, something that you may want to remind the medics if you did decide to appeal. Yes, the situation is slightly different in that it was a war of national survival and he was already in service when his accident happened and had already passed officer & flying training and was, legs apart, a known risk. However, he was denied service on the grounds of his legs - or lack of. He still managed to prove that a lack of legs needn't be too much of an issue.
However, I suspect that there are other factors at play which may not be immediately apparent to a civilian. Given the relatively arduous nature of IOT (my course had tendons, ligaments and all sorts snapping, stretching, breaking & twisting on some of the more arduous exercises, and that even included the supposedly fit Regt wannabes), I wouldn't be at all surprised if they have one eye on potential litigation & compensation payouts if you happened to do some real damage during training. In the current litigious climate, that wouldn't be totally out of the question; after all, some civi typist working in the RAF got nearly £500,000 for hurting her thumb typing - they are probably terrified of what they might have to pay you if you really biffed your legs during training.
As an aside, I would on the surface agree that is all pish and nonsense. Mate of mine has had his knee re-built twice whilst in the RAF and he is doing just fine. But as I said, suspect there are other factors at play.
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Given the relatively arduous nature of IOT
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jimbob85
I tore my ACL playing rugby in 1983, had a reconstruction and joined the RAF as a pilot in 1986, leaving in 2004 with A1G1Z1 (fully fit for all behaviour). The lucky bit for me was that the consultant at Cambridge who performed the reconstruction, a Mr Dandy, also happened to be the RAF consultant. He said at the time that there was still a bit of movement in the knee after the operation, but as it was his work, he couldn't exactly call it a bad job and call me unfit. It would not have passed muster for the Army.
I got throught the rigours of IOT which was more demanding on the knees than a survival exercise. Drill was the worst bit, having to stamp your right foot down a lot, and then run about with telegraph poles. In my case, the knee simply filled with fluid at protest with accompanying stiffness due to all the fluid in the tissues. No pain, but looked impressive. Thereafter, no problems throughout my career, participating in 5 a side footie, skiing, bicycle bar jousting with nary a problem.
So there you go. I had exactly the same injury and treatment as you and was allowed in. I don't know how severely your ligament was torn, but mine was well and truly rent asunder. Be persistent but polite with them. PM me if you want more from me, or to quote me as a precedent as I thoroughly sympathize. Be patient as I haven't 'done' PMs before.
Good luck chap.
I tore my ACL playing rugby in 1983, had a reconstruction and joined the RAF as a pilot in 1986, leaving in 2004 with A1G1Z1 (fully fit for all behaviour). The lucky bit for me was that the consultant at Cambridge who performed the reconstruction, a Mr Dandy, also happened to be the RAF consultant. He said at the time that there was still a bit of movement in the knee after the operation, but as it was his work, he couldn't exactly call it a bad job and call me unfit. It would not have passed muster for the Army.
I got throught the rigours of IOT which was more demanding on the knees than a survival exercise. Drill was the worst bit, having to stamp your right foot down a lot, and then run about with telegraph poles. In my case, the knee simply filled with fluid at protest with accompanying stiffness due to all the fluid in the tissues. No pain, but looked impressive. Thereafter, no problems throughout my career, participating in 5 a side footie, skiing, bicycle bar jousting with nary a problem.
So there you go. I had exactly the same injury and treatment as you and was allowed in. I don't know how severely your ligament was torn, but mine was well and truly rent asunder. Be persistent but polite with them. PM me if you want more from me, or to quote me as a precedent as I thoroughly sympathize. Be patient as I haven't 'done' PMs before.
Good luck chap.
Mate of mine has had his knee re-built twice whilst in the RAF and he is doing just fine
An analogy might be whether one would be happy to accept as brand new a car that had previously had a prang during delivery but had since been factory rebuilt on the jig.
While I'm deviating from the thread, the point about Bader being able to prove that a lack of legs need not be an issue, I feel somewhat grumpy that, for some reason, being 50 somehow handicapped me to such an extent that I was forced to retire after over 30 years flying experience 22 of which were as a practicing A2(H) QHI.
Getting back to the thread, I had a torn cartilage removed at 18; the RAF were ambivalent and accepted me, though I struggled with it through CW IOT. Later when I applied for the RN, they specifically asked about knee problems in the pre-medical questionaire, to which I had a sudden attack of AIDS*. Subsequently the knee did not hamper my military flying career (though the amnesia possibly did! along with my rampant verbosity, my unique tendency to wonder off the point at the drop of a hat, and my finely tuned ability to wind up senior officers). That said 35 years on, I am awaiting a knee replacement op.
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.*AID - Amnesia-Induced-Dishonesty Syndrome
