RAAF Future Air Combat Capability Review
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Australasia
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the TSR2 had the political thrust behind it that the Eurofighter has, the RAF wouldn't have had the pleasure of flying such formidable fighters and bombers as the F3 and GR1!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 932
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, Aussies talking about TSR-2 is likely to be about as popular on here as Aussies talking about the last Ashes series. 
Of course, the difference is that the 2009 Ashes will be much more like the 2005 series...! 
More seriously, LJR and Archimedes are right: further evolving the F-111 is an (extremely) expensive developmental dead-end, made worse by the RAAF's sole operator status (cf RAF and VC-10). But having not seen dump + burn since the early 90s, I hope that the RAAF can be enticed to bring some F-111s to the UK for some final fun and games before they retire. Perhaps at the same time as the cricket next summer!?!
If you want to develop the A-G capability for Typhoon, then make a serious commitment. If not, then those actually purchasing it will make the calls on what comes first. IIRC, the so-called "austere" A-G fit for LGBs (which seems to be pretty good) was brought forward at the customer's (RAF in this case) request from Block 2. Pays your money, takes your choice.
Which is not to excuse BWoS from any of their multitude of project mis-management f
ck-ups.
S41
Of course, the difference is that the 2009 Ashes will be much more like the 2005 series...! More seriously, LJR and Archimedes are right: further evolving the F-111 is an (extremely) expensive developmental dead-end, made worse by the RAAF's sole operator status (cf RAF and VC-10). But having not seen dump + burn since the early 90s, I hope that the RAAF can be enticed to bring some F-111s to the UK for some final fun and games before they retire. Perhaps at the same time as the cricket next summer!?!
If you want to develop the A-G capability for Typhoon, then make a serious commitment. If not, then those actually purchasing it will make the calls on what comes first. IIRC, the so-called "austere" A-G fit for LGBs (which seems to be pretty good) was brought forward at the customer's (RAF in this case) request from Block 2. Pays your money, takes your choice.
Which is not to excuse BWoS from any of their multitude of project mis-management f
ck-ups.S41
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Bris Vegas Australia
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mid-thread life crisis
Selemat Pagi/Malam depending upon hemisphere.....
As commented upon by a few of you, it would be a pity if this were to descend into a Typhoo-bashing thread. My aim when starting it was to highlight the possibility of Labor of old pennypinching undermining the modernisation of the ADF (sound familiar to those of you up North in the Motherland??)
I hope and (as much as a non-can-goist can do so) pray that this is not the case and that this announcement along with the whinge about the FFG upgrade (into it's 4th year of faffing) is merely a political exercise in slagging off Nelson as former Defence Minister and now Leader of the Opposition.
If the review is conducted credibly, then I can see no other option than to continue with the Rhino buy despite its somewhat dodgy genesis, as the aggressive timeline required does not allow any other option.
For mine, we should stop wasting money on the HUGgernaut program and save what we can to properly fund other projects. The classic Hornets now have a solid capability that will last them to their projected LoT.
The mighty Pig is retiring at the right time, and will go out at the top of it's game...There were a few options for cheap upgrades that would have made it even better, but the funding isn't there any more as the PWD is fast approaching (Take note for the HUG $$$$ those of you reading from the headshed). All of Carlo's dreams are not worth a moments consideration as the airframes are just too old.
I would hope that the outcome of a credibly run review may be a cut in the number of Daves purchased. It seems very strange to me that we have so many people working on the NACC program (stands for Not Another Calendar Change!) and so few on the introduction of the Rhino. Maybe they'll finally realise the importance of SEAD and buy a few Growlers!
LJR - Copied your lethal scale models point earlier...Hopefully they'll review the need for some of them too...Maybe that's your ticket back here??
Jindabyne - Hope this brings a smile to your face...Not all Pig people belong to the old-school 111 or nothing BOMBOCRASY!!
As commented upon by a few of you, it would be a pity if this were to descend into a Typhoo-bashing thread. My aim when starting it was to highlight the possibility of Labor of old pennypinching undermining the modernisation of the ADF (sound familiar to those of you up North in the Motherland??)
I hope and (as much as a non-can-goist can do so) pray that this is not the case and that this announcement along with the whinge about the FFG upgrade (into it's 4th year of faffing) is merely a political exercise in slagging off Nelson as former Defence Minister and now Leader of the Opposition.
If the review is conducted credibly, then I can see no other option than to continue with the Rhino buy despite its somewhat dodgy genesis, as the aggressive timeline required does not allow any other option.
For mine, we should stop wasting money on the HUGgernaut program and save what we can to properly fund other projects. The classic Hornets now have a solid capability that will last them to their projected LoT.
The mighty Pig is retiring at the right time, and will go out at the top of it's game...There were a few options for cheap upgrades that would have made it even better, but the funding isn't there any more as the PWD is fast approaching (Take note for the HUG $$$$ those of you reading from the headshed). All of Carlo's dreams are not worth a moments consideration as the airframes are just too old.
I would hope that the outcome of a credibly run review may be a cut in the number of Daves purchased. It seems very strange to me that we have so many people working on the NACC program (stands for Not Another Calendar Change!) and so few on the introduction of the Rhino. Maybe they'll finally realise the importance of SEAD and buy a few Growlers!
LJR - Copied your lethal scale models point earlier...Hopefully they'll review the need for some of them too...Maybe that's your ticket back here??
Jindabyne - Hope this brings a smile to your face...Not all Pig people belong to the old-school 111 or nothing BOMBOCRASY!!
Last edited by antipodean alligator; 3rd Jan 2008 at 10:42. Reason: Typo - as usual!
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Longton, Lancs, UK
Age: 80
Posts: 1,527
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
anti - alligator
Good response. I'll continue to look, but I guess that most, (but not all), other posts will be either inane or ill-considered. I wish the RAAF well - it needs, in my view, a better quality-contribution from it's present top-end leaders in DoD Canberra- nice guys, but lacking.
Good response. I'll continue to look, but I guess that most, (but not all), other posts will be either inane or ill-considered. I wish the RAAF well - it needs, in my view, a better quality-contribution from it's present top-end leaders in DoD Canberra- nice guys, but lacking.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Oz
Posts: 644
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by garudadude
I'd hate to play devil's advocate on myself - but the bug fleet will have JASSM, and can cruise at 1.8 for about as long as an aardvark can cruise at 2.5.
Originally Posted by garudadude
They can also do over Mach 1 on the deck...
Originally Posted by garudadude
Harpoon is an old weapon, but bugs can carry that too, my understanding is that the geeks just need to work the 1's and Zeroes to get that on board.
Originally Posted by garudadude
That's why we need to heed Dr Kopp's advice and start 'plus-ing up' the F111, am I the only one on this thread that sees this as a viable option? WBB?
Originally Posted by garudadude
The Hornet is a great CAS platform, ask any marine and i'm sure they'll vouch for it...
Originally Posted by garudadude
...- but imagine having a LO F111, with AESA, AMRAAMs and an arsenal of smart iron sitting on station - even in a high threat environment, it would be nearly invincible.
Originally Posted by antipodean alligator
All of Carlo's dreams are not worth a moments consideration as the airframes are just too old.
In short, the Rhino is the right way to go. In fact, I've heard it suggested that we should abandon CBR now (especially in light of the production issues it is facing) and get some more Rhinos, keep the best 40 or so Hornets, buy a couple more tankers, and push the JSF decision back to 2009/10 and IOC to 2016/17.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Australasia
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There's speed limits to most weapons - Mach2.5 and 1.8 are the kind of speeds that platforms with external weapon carriage typically use to get out of enemy territory after dropping bombs (A/A weapons have far less restrictive speed limits). Unless you've got an internal weapons bay, then you're going to be speed limited on your way into the target - so M2.5 is one tool to keep you alive - but you'll need others.
The hornet can easily do M1.0 on the deck - you need to push the throttles (both of them) through the detent, don't know if it can with many stores, maybe that's your point.
As far as F18 CAS goes - great point with the new weapons/sensors, but an eagle or even better - F111, could do the same job of at least a pair of hornets, and i've heard stories of FACs emptying 3 of those attack hercs into a tgt area - loadout does matter to the man on the ground, even in a low air threat such as Afghanistan.
There were awesome stories recently on 60 Minutes and 4 Corners..... Pete Kriss and Chris Mills - accomplished fighter pilots - even question the relevance of the bug, JSF etc. Are they on the money? Or ill-informed old farts??
Dr Kopp has some incredible credentials, it's difficult to take blind faith in the words of people on a forum when he has written so many awesome papers and (I'm told) has so many contacts within defence that back his theories. But I do value the advice given on this forum, great food for thought.
The hornet can easily do M1.0 on the deck - you need to push the throttles (both of them) through the detent, don't know if it can with many stores, maybe that's your point.
As far as F18 CAS goes - great point with the new weapons/sensors, but an eagle or even better - F111, could do the same job of at least a pair of hornets, and i've heard stories of FACs emptying 3 of those attack hercs into a tgt area - loadout does matter to the man on the ground, even in a low air threat such as Afghanistan.
There were awesome stories recently on 60 Minutes and 4 Corners..... Pete Kriss and Chris Mills - accomplished fighter pilots - even question the relevance of the bug, JSF etc. Are they on the money? Or ill-informed old farts??
Dr Kopp has some incredible credentials, it's difficult to take blind faith in the words of people on a forum when he has written so many awesome papers and (I'm told) has so many contacts within defence that back his theories. But I do value the advice given on this forum, great food for thought.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Oz
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There were awesome stories recently on 60 Minutes and 4 Corners..... Pete Kriss and Chris Mills - accomplished fighter pilots - even question the relevance of the bug, JSF etc. Are they on the money? Or ill-informed old farts??
Dr Kopp has some incredible credentials, it's difficult to take blind faith in the words of people on a forum when he has written so many awesome papers and (I'm told) has so many contacts within defence that back his theories. But I do value the advice given on this forum, great food for thought.
Dr Kopp has some incredible credentials, it's difficult to take blind faith in the words of people on a forum when he has written so many awesome papers and (I'm told) has so many contacts within defence that back his theories. But I do value the advice given on this forum, great food for thought.
Karlo Copp does, indeed, have credentials, but having impressive credentials is not, sadly, an obstacle to talking tosh. Some might say that 'incredible' in its original usage describes many of his ideas, particularly re: the F-111. 
Upgrading the F-111, fitting it with F110 engines, etc, etc all looks good on paper, but the practicalities of doing this sort of thing are never as simple as they appear, and rarely costs as little as proponents suggest. It sounds simple, but unless you virtually rebuild the airframes from scratch (see comment about selling Tasmania when thinking about the cost of this), you spend a lot of time and a fair deal of money on an airframe that is getting ancient and which will cost a considerable amount of time and money to maintain. At some point, you have to say 'great aircraft, but better to spend on something else, let's plan a great retirement bash for the old beast' and buy something new.
Upgrading the F-111, fitting it with F110 engines, etc, etc all looks good on paper, but the practicalities of doing this sort of thing are never as simple as they appear, and rarely costs as little as proponents suggest. It sounds simple, but unless you virtually rebuild the airframes from scratch (see comment about selling Tasmania when thinking about the cost of this), you spend a lot of time and a fair deal of money on an airframe that is getting ancient and which will cost a considerable amount of time and money to maintain. At some point, you have to say 'great aircraft, but better to spend on something else, let's plan a great retirement bash for the old beast' and buy something new.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Victoria
Age: 62
Posts: 984
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Karlo Copp does, indeed, have credentials
IMHO C.K's only credentials are as an over-indugled bullsh!t artist
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: N.Ireland
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With Typhoon entering full scale service, there are going to be a fair few Tornados going spare. Some F3s and GR4s Tarted up a bit will fill the capability gap until Dave quite well, will do everything good enough and cheap enough. And if you are going up against well flown, well equipped Sukhoi 30s you may as well get shot down in a Tonka instead of a Superhornet.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Bris Vegas Australia
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some F3s and GR4s Tarted up a bit will fill the capability gap until Dave quite well, will do everything good enough and cheap enough
You've got to be kidding. Not even the Bungling Baron himself would consider offering Tonkas or Fag-chariots as F-111 replacements.....I'd keep the Pig till 2110 if my only replacement option was Tornado
There's clearly a scent of blood in the water....Check out this link from the Australian newspaper website:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...-31477,00.html
You might find the cracks, but are you going to have the spares multiply on the shelves in the Loggie hangar or stop the leaks etc???
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Canberra
Posts: 382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Must say, all this talk about modernizing the Pig is a bit reminiscent of the wet dream merchants trying to secure future Congressional funding for the mighty BUFFs continuous operation.
The various models of the B52 are now in their what.......5th decade of service?
The various models of the B52 are now in their what.......5th decade of service?
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Nomadic
Posts: 1,343
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Buff flies at 1.5 (max 2)G.
If you want your bomb truck to last forever, that is all you have to do.
The structural gurus in Perth (or wherever) can monitor this. That is all they do. They do not extend component life.
BUT
They will not give the ageing airframe more available G.
....even the 'boring' (self imposed) 4G (or whatever NzW - he thinks), won't allow an airframe extension. It is time to trade in the 1964 Torana for the 2007 Commodore, while waiting for the 2010 BMW chaps, even if it 'runs'well', unfortunately the rust under the carpet is now getting your feet wet, and soon the drivers seat will fall through the floor. - oh and by the way, the 8 track cannot be serviced anymore - no matter how good the sound used to be.
..oh and whoever even said Tornado, don't even go there!
If you want your bomb truck to last forever, that is all you have to do.
The structural gurus in Perth (or wherever) can monitor this. That is all they do. They do not extend component life.
BUT
They will not give the ageing airframe more available G.
....even the 'boring' (self imposed) 4G (or whatever NzW - he thinks), won't allow an airframe extension. It is time to trade in the 1964 Torana for the 2007 Commodore, while waiting for the 2010 BMW chaps, even if it 'runs'well', unfortunately the rust under the carpet is now getting your feet wet, and soon the drivers seat will fall through the floor. - oh and by the way, the 8 track cannot be serviced anymore - no matter how good the sound used to be.
..oh and whoever even said Tornado, don't even go there!