Disband the Royal Air Force?
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I think people would stay in for their pensions. Just like they are now
Depends how many years to pension though.
Anyway all hypothetical, never happen!
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I have resisted for a few years to comment on this topic however I am now really wound up about it (after Today programme Radio 4 on Fri). A couple of questions to start:
Does anyone join the RAF to embark/operate onboard ship?
Why cannot the RA UAV Btys not fit ordnance to their ordnance capable UAVs because the RAF have imposed a limitation?
Are the RAF aviation SMEs?
I am pretty pissed off about the whole disband the RAF issue. However it is the RAF who appear to want to silently take over the other services air assets. I can't think of any RAF fellas who join to then go to sea. They would dodge any hardship/hardwork, therefore justifying having a Fleet Air Arm with its own fixed wing assets (fast jet pilots who join knowing that they will spend time at sea).
The whole FAA fast jet issue popped its head up again when recently chatted to a fella who served on JHF. Whilst deployed in theatre I was aware that Harrier was being replaced by Tornado. I am not a spotter so don't really know the capability difference in the aircraft. That we were aware of was the huge cost of expanding the dispersal/airfield facilities to accommodate the tornados. Fair enough JFH had been rotating though for years but I learnt that this move to relieve them in place was a political move by the RAF. Replacing the aircraft would rest the JFH manpower. However with tornado not doing anything at home they were 70% manned. The remaining 30% came from the resting JFH manpower? Removing the harrier from theatre also enabled the RAF to gradually remove it from service to scupper any chance for the FAA to retain any FJ pilots for the F35. Save money and save your own interests = Ah, cunning light blue crabs!
In theatre I visited the RA UAV Bty who had a fairly all singing and dancing UAV which could be fitted with some ordnance. They were unable to do this because of some sort of restrictions on which service can operate certain platforms/capabilities. Surely this is denying the fellas on the ground a more useful/flexible asset all because of willy waving!
Similarly the AAC for hanging on tooth and nail to Lynx (+ Wildcat) numbers to stay a viable organic force. If they are Wildcat cuts they will essentially only have Apache (which no RAF pilot should ever fly as they have no appreciation of the guys on the ground, let alone any other human being who does not wear a double wing brevet on their chest at all possible opportunities) therefore very susceptible to the RAF subsuming them.
The RAF aviation SMEs? Not from my experience. They are typically school boys with their hair on fire all wishing they were flying fast jets. In theatre they always insisted on flying back to their comforts wasting an hour each way flying time. Flying with them they were insular and all about themselves. They did not understand the concept of mutual support which was dangerous. Coupled with the fact that they only spend upto 10 weeks in theatre you only got a reasonably useful/competent crew for 5 weeks (1st two weeks learning the ropes again, changing in theatre and new TTPs; 5 weeks ok but needed reminding about TTPs, mutual support and why they were out there; last week they were thinking about going home). And typically they were fat, loafing twats who just swanned about thinking they were the mutts nuts. Similarly in Iraq they flew back to Kuwait every night. When finally being called upon for a deliberate op they arrived at Bashra late because they had got up late (after some drinks the previous night). They hadn’t even lifted from Kuwait by the time they should have been briefing in Iraq!
Along similar lines the RAF being aviation engineering SMEs is bull**it. Again, close friends had told me of their shoddy maintenance attitude. They once went a whole month not completing the electronic maintenance documentation (because they couldn’t be arsed – they are the RAF don’t you know, they can do that if they like) that they had to spend even more time catching up on servicing history. I understand the new Military Airworthiness Authority was formed with a lot of ‘best practice’ from the FAA rather than RAF.
Generally the RAF has a cowboy flying club attitude manned by fat, loafing, hardship dodging wasters. I briefly met a 7 Sqn SF CH pilot (an honour of me!?) in Norway. He had just completed the cold weather survival course and said how didn’t enjoy the course and wouldn’t have chosen to do it. Surely as an SH pilot (and the cream of the crop?) you should understand/embrace the role you have and those you are supporting (and sometimes living alongside) on the ground. His final comment was how ‘they’ typically deploy and stay in Gucci hotels/accomm, I switched off after that.
As for their numerous ground role personnel. RAF Regt what is the point nowadays (they are special in what way)? Air movement staff, always loads of them loafing and totally unmotivated/unhelpful at Brize/theatre?. RAF Police, loads of them for what purpose (maybe in theatre to set up speed cameras around the base – phew, big picture stuff). Strategic RAF Ops staff, read out about 5 secret codes twice a day, they didn’t know what they were reading out and did very little else other than print off sheets and put them in packs. Generally a lot of manpower who don’t not very much.
Magners, you may have done well at school and therefore joined the RAF but is that because you were clever enough to see that you would be very much a civvie in uniform?
I would not want to join the RAF nor have them merge with us! Though I would like the RAF to recognise the need for AAC to retain Apaches and some battlefield helicopters, the need for an organic FAA with fast jet (+ why are CHF getting RAF cast-off Merlin Mk3s when their attitude, ethos and performance far outweighs the RAF SH force)
Phew, finally release that pent up distain for the RAF. I await my post’s slating just before I deploy for 6 months (What, the RAF rarely deploy for more than 3? Must be because they are over worked, but the other services are fine).
Does anyone join the RAF to embark/operate onboard ship?
Why cannot the RA UAV Btys not fit ordnance to their ordnance capable UAVs because the RAF have imposed a limitation?
Are the RAF aviation SMEs?
I am pretty pissed off about the whole disband the RAF issue. However it is the RAF who appear to want to silently take over the other services air assets. I can't think of any RAF fellas who join to then go to sea. They would dodge any hardship/hardwork, therefore justifying having a Fleet Air Arm with its own fixed wing assets (fast jet pilots who join knowing that they will spend time at sea).
The whole FAA fast jet issue popped its head up again when recently chatted to a fella who served on JHF. Whilst deployed in theatre I was aware that Harrier was being replaced by Tornado. I am not a spotter so don't really know the capability difference in the aircraft. That we were aware of was the huge cost of expanding the dispersal/airfield facilities to accommodate the tornados. Fair enough JFH had been rotating though for years but I learnt that this move to relieve them in place was a political move by the RAF. Replacing the aircraft would rest the JFH manpower. However with tornado not doing anything at home they were 70% manned. The remaining 30% came from the resting JFH manpower? Removing the harrier from theatre also enabled the RAF to gradually remove it from service to scupper any chance for the FAA to retain any FJ pilots for the F35. Save money and save your own interests = Ah, cunning light blue crabs!
In theatre I visited the RA UAV Bty who had a fairly all singing and dancing UAV which could be fitted with some ordnance. They were unable to do this because of some sort of restrictions on which service can operate certain platforms/capabilities. Surely this is denying the fellas on the ground a more useful/flexible asset all because of willy waving!
Similarly the AAC for hanging on tooth and nail to Lynx (+ Wildcat) numbers to stay a viable organic force. If they are Wildcat cuts they will essentially only have Apache (which no RAF pilot should ever fly as they have no appreciation of the guys on the ground, let alone any other human being who does not wear a double wing brevet on their chest at all possible opportunities) therefore very susceptible to the RAF subsuming them.
The RAF aviation SMEs? Not from my experience. They are typically school boys with their hair on fire all wishing they were flying fast jets. In theatre they always insisted on flying back to their comforts wasting an hour each way flying time. Flying with them they were insular and all about themselves. They did not understand the concept of mutual support which was dangerous. Coupled with the fact that they only spend upto 10 weeks in theatre you only got a reasonably useful/competent crew for 5 weeks (1st two weeks learning the ropes again, changing in theatre and new TTPs; 5 weeks ok but needed reminding about TTPs, mutual support and why they were out there; last week they were thinking about going home). And typically they were fat, loafing twats who just swanned about thinking they were the mutts nuts. Similarly in Iraq they flew back to Kuwait every night. When finally being called upon for a deliberate op they arrived at Bashra late because they had got up late (after some drinks the previous night). They hadn’t even lifted from Kuwait by the time they should have been briefing in Iraq!
Along similar lines the RAF being aviation engineering SMEs is bull**it. Again, close friends had told me of their shoddy maintenance attitude. They once went a whole month not completing the electronic maintenance documentation (because they couldn’t be arsed – they are the RAF don’t you know, they can do that if they like) that they had to spend even more time catching up on servicing history. I understand the new Military Airworthiness Authority was formed with a lot of ‘best practice’ from the FAA rather than RAF.
Generally the RAF has a cowboy flying club attitude manned by fat, loafing, hardship dodging wasters. I briefly met a 7 Sqn SF CH pilot (an honour of me!?) in Norway. He had just completed the cold weather survival course and said how didn’t enjoy the course and wouldn’t have chosen to do it. Surely as an SH pilot (and the cream of the crop?) you should understand/embrace the role you have and those you are supporting (and sometimes living alongside) on the ground. His final comment was how ‘they’ typically deploy and stay in Gucci hotels/accomm, I switched off after that.
As for their numerous ground role personnel. RAF Regt what is the point nowadays (they are special in what way)? Air movement staff, always loads of them loafing and totally unmotivated/unhelpful at Brize/theatre?. RAF Police, loads of them for what purpose (maybe in theatre to set up speed cameras around the base – phew, big picture stuff). Strategic RAF Ops staff, read out about 5 secret codes twice a day, they didn’t know what they were reading out and did very little else other than print off sheets and put them in packs. Generally a lot of manpower who don’t not very much.
Magners, you may have done well at school and therefore joined the RAF but is that because you were clever enough to see that you would be very much a civvie in uniform?
I would not want to join the RAF nor have them merge with us! Though I would like the RAF to recognise the need for AAC to retain Apaches and some battlefield helicopters, the need for an organic FAA with fast jet (+ why are CHF getting RAF cast-off Merlin Mk3s when their attitude, ethos and performance far outweighs the RAF SH force)
Phew, finally release that pent up distain for the RAF. I await my post’s slating just before I deploy for 6 months (What, the RAF rarely deploy for more than 3? Must be because they are over worked, but the other services are fine).
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Britair....
One word for you: t**t - fill in the blanks yourself if you are literate enough mate.
Your 'rant' as that is what it is, is typical of a self indulgent, ill informed chopper who really has no understanding or conception of what the RAF is and what it does - truly you belong on ARRSE so why not do us all a favour and head off over there chap. But we all have the right to free speech, so you have exercised yours fully, it would seem.
I am an RAF SH Pilot who has spent the last 18 years flying helicopters in every conflict zone we have been involved in. For 11 of those 18 years I spent, on average, 6-7 months of every year away from my home and family doing what I love best, supporting the British Armed Forces (Army, Navy and Royal in equal measures). I have had no complaints and still love doing my job to the best of my ability as does every member of my crews and detachment personnel.
I have also spent a great deal of time working with the FAA and AAC and while I have the utmost respect for them, they are not professional aviators in the same way the RAF are. Full stop.
I hoped I wouldn't be able to bite in response to your post, but I have, so please make sure to identfy yourself to the crew of the next RAF Helicopter who bring you bang or scoff and mail, or pulls your ass out of a contact when you have become a casualty - I hope they kick you back off the ramp mate.
Response rant over.
Sorry, had to add that you are probably a classic 'walt' anyway who has never ventured out beyond the wire or put himself anywhere near danger. That would explain your post nicely. Most of those I speak to (and I speak to a lot of the people I support, unlike your claims of aloof RAF Aircrew) who have experienced real combat, genuinely appreciate the RAF both in the SH and CAS roles (as well as the AT fleet who get them home, albeit usually late!) which leads me to the 'you are a classic Walt' conclusion. Go on, prove me wrong........
One word for you: t**t - fill in the blanks yourself if you are literate enough mate.
Your 'rant' as that is what it is, is typical of a self indulgent, ill informed chopper who really has no understanding or conception of what the RAF is and what it does - truly you belong on ARRSE so why not do us all a favour and head off over there chap. But we all have the right to free speech, so you have exercised yours fully, it would seem.
I am an RAF SH Pilot who has spent the last 18 years flying helicopters in every conflict zone we have been involved in. For 11 of those 18 years I spent, on average, 6-7 months of every year away from my home and family doing what I love best, supporting the British Armed Forces (Army, Navy and Royal in equal measures). I have had no complaints and still love doing my job to the best of my ability as does every member of my crews and detachment personnel.
I have also spent a great deal of time working with the FAA and AAC and while I have the utmost respect for them, they are not professional aviators in the same way the RAF are. Full stop.
I hoped I wouldn't be able to bite in response to your post, but I have, so please make sure to identfy yourself to the crew of the next RAF Helicopter who bring you bang or scoff and mail, or pulls your ass out of a contact when you have become a casualty - I hope they kick you back off the ramp mate.
Response rant over.
Sorry, had to add that you are probably a classic 'walt' anyway who has never ventured out beyond the wire or put himself anywhere near danger. That would explain your post nicely. Most of those I speak to (and I speak to a lot of the people I support, unlike your claims of aloof RAF Aircrew) who have experienced real combat, genuinely appreciate the RAF both in the SH and CAS roles (as well as the AT fleet who get them home, albeit usually late!) which leads me to the 'you are a classic Walt' conclusion. Go on, prove me wrong........
Last edited by wokkamate; 31st May 2010 at 14:38.
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Britair
What utter hoop. You are yet another embittered idiot who takes a stereotype, or the example of a few and tars us all with the same brush. The vast majority of the RAF complete full tours in theatre. As a result of that, most RAF and Navy pers come back with a far better understanding of what the Army is about as a result of what is laughingly known as 'jointery' than you will ever have of your sister Services - hence your ill-informed post. The flip side of that is that it gives us the insight to know that we can be thankful we turned left in the AFCO and not right.
In terms of your points - the reason why most movers are demotivated is because they have to deal with pillocks like you on a daily basis. You may wish to note that the pax handlers in theatre are actually in the Army.
Your point on Tornado couldn't be further from the truth. I can speak with authority on that and one of the reasons why the JHF were withdrawn was because the fleet would have been broken had it stayed in theatre. If we had been that intent on world domination, what better way than to kipper the Navy by denying them the only ac that they can fly off carriers (and that was a central discussion)?
Like most pongos, you seem to think that the sole purpose of the RAF is to provide over the shoulder support to the Army while in the field. It's actually a small part of what we do and you might be surprised to know that flying in circles over Afg waiting to bail you out of the clag for 6 months is not conducive to keeping current in all of those other roles, hence the requirement to complete shorter tours.
In terms of tour lengths - I have yet to hear anyone from the Army give any scientific answer as to why everyone should complete 6 monthers other than 'its what we do'.
Finally, I've spent a couple of years as a BALO and had an outstanding time and made some good friends. I have nothing but respect for the guys that I worked with and what they were able to accomplish with sparse resources. Similarly, they took the time to understand what I could do and bring to the party and I had a great tour. They were professional to the core - something that you are clearly not. Fortunately, people like you are in the minority (although it is incredible how you all seem to gravitate towards HQs).
You made your choice at the AFCO, I made mine. You need to accept that and live with it and stop moaning about 'civvies in uniform'. Chimp.
Anyhoo, back to the grind stone - I'm only a couple of months into my 6 monther...
What utter hoop. You are yet another embittered idiot who takes a stereotype, or the example of a few and tars us all with the same brush. The vast majority of the RAF complete full tours in theatre. As a result of that, most RAF and Navy pers come back with a far better understanding of what the Army is about as a result of what is laughingly known as 'jointery' than you will ever have of your sister Services - hence your ill-informed post. The flip side of that is that it gives us the insight to know that we can be thankful we turned left in the AFCO and not right.
In terms of your points - the reason why most movers are demotivated is because they have to deal with pillocks like you on a daily basis. You may wish to note that the pax handlers in theatre are actually in the Army.
Your point on Tornado couldn't be further from the truth. I can speak with authority on that and one of the reasons why the JHF were withdrawn was because the fleet would have been broken had it stayed in theatre. If we had been that intent on world domination, what better way than to kipper the Navy by denying them the only ac that they can fly off carriers (and that was a central discussion)?
Like most pongos, you seem to think that the sole purpose of the RAF is to provide over the shoulder support to the Army while in the field. It's actually a small part of what we do and you might be surprised to know that flying in circles over Afg waiting to bail you out of the clag for 6 months is not conducive to keeping current in all of those other roles, hence the requirement to complete shorter tours.
In terms of tour lengths - I have yet to hear anyone from the Army give any scientific answer as to why everyone should complete 6 monthers other than 'its what we do'.
Finally, I've spent a couple of years as a BALO and had an outstanding time and made some good friends. I have nothing but respect for the guys that I worked with and what they were able to accomplish with sparse resources. Similarly, they took the time to understand what I could do and bring to the party and I had a great tour. They were professional to the core - something that you are clearly not. Fortunately, people like you are in the minority (although it is incredible how you all seem to gravitate towards HQs).
You made your choice at the AFCO, I made mine. You need to accept that and live with it and stop moaning about 'civvies in uniform'. Chimp.
Anyhoo, back to the grind stone - I'm only a couple of months into my 6 monther...
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Hope you enjoyed your daily feed.
Britair - I'd worry about your next CDT...
Well, I suppose I have bitten.
Britair, I shudder to think what job you have done in theatre and whether your got and about at KAF (or Kandahar NATO Operating Base - KNOB to be correct). If you had, you'd realise what a vital role the RAF Regt plays there - or perhaps you didn't note their role just over a week ago to repel a determined ground attack by Terry Taliban?
Oh, and how did you happen to get to/from/about theatre (although I think we have determined that you didn't get out much)? Were you beamed in, or did the RAF convey you on the last leg into theatre?
Oh, I could go on, but it is murderously hot here and I need to go down to the hotel pool in time for Happy Hour.
Britair, I shudder to think what job you have done in theatre and whether your got and about at KAF (or Kandahar NATO Operating Base - KNOB to be correct). If you had, you'd realise what a vital role the RAF Regt plays there - or perhaps you didn't note their role just over a week ago to repel a determined ground attack by Terry Taliban?
Oh, and how did you happen to get to/from/about theatre (although I think we have determined that you didn't get out much)? Were you beamed in, or did the RAF convey you on the last leg into theatre?
Oh, I could go on, but it is murderously hot here and I need to go down to the hotel pool in time for Happy Hour.
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Britair,
loved the rant; made me chuckle..
As a card-carrying, albeit ground based member, of said "cowboy flying club", I thought you'd enjoy a photo of wokkamate's colleagues out on a 'jolly'....
Photo taken from my deployed jacuzzi of course....
Ping-pong
loved the rant; made me chuckle..
As a card-carrying, albeit ground based member, of said "cowboy flying club", I thought you'd enjoy a photo of wokkamate's colleagues out on a 'jolly'....
Photo taken from my deployed jacuzzi of course....
Ping-pong
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Oh dear. It was only a matter of time, which incidentally is what Mr 'I am a Naval helicopter aviator therefore am busier than anyone else' seems to have a lot of.
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Making sweeping statements such as
takes away any credibility you might try and establish with subsequent posts.
Royal Navy in largest deployment of recent years
Just one example of a 'deployment' involving the RAF (plenty more if you look) or is this just a little Grey Funnel detachment?
If you are lucky. The RAF don't deploy at all. They partake in the odd detachment but they don't deploy.
Royal Navy in largest deployment of recent years
Just one example of a 'deployment' involving the RAF (plenty more if you look) or is this just a little Grey Funnel detachment?
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We don't deploy... My detachment is bigger than your detachment. our deployment is longer than your deployment.... Really? Who cares ? The RAF don't care. The Royal Navy don't care. but the Royal Navy isn't about to be disbanded so stop trying to measure your capabilities against the Royal Navies Capabilities and start defending your service. If you don't defend your service then you may lose it.
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Just wait until that Carrier contract gets cancelled under the SDR and the Lib Dems insist on Trident being replaced by an airborne nuclear capability.........
Oops there goes the Royal Navy!
Oops there goes the Royal Navy!
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Maybe that is the answer. Do we need an independent Royal Navy? Perhaps it would be cheaper to disband the Royal Navy and call it the "Sea Arm of the RAF"?
Is there really a requirement for an independent Air Force? Is there a requirement for an independent Royal Navy? I do know that the RAF enjoy embarking in the CVS but how about embarking in a Frigate or Destroyer? If we get rid of the Fleet Air Arm then would the RAF be content to go to see in DD/FF? I think it would work.
p.s. The Carriers may be fair game but Trident has been ring-fenced and is not part of the SDR
Is there really a requirement for an independent Air Force? Is there a requirement for an independent Royal Navy? I do know that the RAF enjoy embarking in the CVS but how about embarking in a Frigate or Destroyer? If we get rid of the Fleet Air Arm then would the RAF be content to go to see in DD/FF? I think it would work.
p.s. The Carriers may be fair game but Trident has been ring-fenced and is not part of the SDR