Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Sorry. Just another 'military chief with grave concerns' thread. (Merged)

Wikiposts
Search
Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Sorry. Just another 'military chief with grave concerns' thread. (Merged)

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 18th Nov 2007, 07:13
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: @exRAF_Al
Posts: 3,297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Sorry. Just another 'military chief with grave concerns' thread. (Merged)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7100298.stm

I'm not sure that although its good the info is getting out, this is the best way to do it. Governments can easily weather drip fed news like this. What they wouldn't be able to do, is stand resignations. The next time a military chief speaks out, it will get 15 minutes and thats it, and then they will say '.. but we did speak out, in fact every day towards the end.'. They have only bought it on themselves.

However, in light of Lord West's performance last week on the extended custody debate/row, it seems men of steel aren't that heavy on the ground when someone threatens to take the ministerial car away. I thought Brown told us that he parachuted men like him in to give gravitas and depth to the g'ment. All he does though, is lambast them when they have the temerity to speak out of turn.

God, what a state of affairs.

Analysis of the West U-Turns last week (BBC)

West sails into the sunset (BBC)

"Being a simple sailor not a politician maybe I didn't choose my words well. Maybe my choice of words wasn't very clever." Puhhlease.
Al R is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2007, 07:28
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South of Old Warden
Age: 87
Posts: 1,375
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Not choosing 'the right words' must be a Navy thing. The Navy guys and gal who were temporary guests of the Iranian Govt. had the same problem.
Will the Admiral now sell his story to the the Tabloids about how he got a right old bo*****ing from the P.M.?
goudie is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2007, 07:57
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: 119K East of SARDOT
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Sky News:In his Staff Briefing Team Report for 2007 - 'The head of the Army has voiced concern about poor morale among troops and the strain placed on resources by operations in Iraq and Afghanistan' - fair comment, nothing new. However, can anyone de-cypher this robust statement from the MOD?

'A spokesman for the Ministry of Defence stressed that the report represented the unedited views of individual soldiers which were not necessarily widely representative.'

AA
Sand4Gold is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2007, 08:08
  #4 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: @exRAF_Al
Posts: 3,297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
After all, why would CGS be expected to know anything about the army?
Al R is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2007, 09:08
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South of Old Warden
Age: 87
Posts: 1,375
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Quote
'which were not necessarily widely representative'.
' Not necessarily' which means they could be very widely representative but MOD don't really know!
I'm starting to believe that MOD are in denial regards what's going on in the real world.

Last edited by goudie; 18th Nov 2007 at 10:32.
goudie is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2007, 10:13
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Under a recently defunct flight path.
Age: 77
Posts: 1,375
Received 21 Likes on 13 Posts
Report is representative

Despite the spin from MOD, the report does appear to be representative and comprehensive. Quotes from the Sunday Telegraph article:-

The report's findings follow months of interviews with thousands of soldiers and their families from 47 units.

Entitled Chief of the General Staff's Briefing Team Report (2007), the findings are described by Gen Dannatt as a "comprehensive, vivid and accurate" picture of Army life.


Sunday Telegraph article

Read it and weep............
Lyneham Lad is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2007, 10:41
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Hmmm typical response from the MoD - ostritch syndrome. Comprehensive review of thousands it may have been, but as they are all individuals, it doesn't count.
Postman Plod is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2007, 10:57
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: London/Oxford/New York
Posts: 2,926
Received 139 Likes on 64 Posts
Er, are not these "concerned military chiefs" the self same very people who are actually RESPONSIBLE for the morale of the personnel under their command?
pr00ne is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2007, 10:58
  #9 (permalink)  
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I think he has definitely GONE west.
BOAC is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2007, 12:22
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: She is another from north of Hadrians Wall
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Agree with you.

RAF chiefs certainly appear to be made of jelly these days.
teuchter is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2007, 12:33
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
As a green wearer the CGS's stock is quite high at the moment.

If the opening statement in this thread from your masters is true, it is utterly shameful and displays a level of arrogance and comtempt for you guys that wear blue that is beyond belief.

G
gijoe is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2007, 12:39
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Shefford, Beds, UK
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Chutley, couldn't agree more with your sentiments. Having heard those very words (some variation but not much) I was stunned.

But then, am I really surprised when the entire hierarchy is populated by people selected for their task by their degree of hand-eye co-ordination at the age of 18?
In Tor Wot is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2007, 13:04
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: wilts
Posts: 1,667
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thought I'd cheer you up with a story about a 1* back in 2002.

"The string brought back some memories since it was my crew that flew Hoon from Bahrain to Kabul. For the record, it was 4 Feb 02. I don't remember specifically telling Hoon that we didn't have defensive systems, but I remember his butt boy. Air Commodore , a Harrier guy from Strike or 2 Group I think, came on 15 or 20 min before Hoon. ***** jumped right on him about defensive systems. We asked him how he felt about flying Hoon in on a non flare equipped aircraft. He assured us that all Hercules aircraft had defensive systems. I showed him the tie down chain under my seat and assured him that he was mistaken. assured us that threat assessments were being done, but as Hoon got on the flight deck was visibly shaken as he headed to the back. Once we were airborne, ***** tried to talk to Hoon, but he slept most of the way. came back up on the flight deck later and was much more composed. With Hoon sleeping on the bunk, said again about how the intel assessments were constantly reviewed, and that we would never be sent in if the threat was too high. I quoted him the number of MANPAD shots that had been assessed in theatre from the intel brief we had received and asked him how many you had to have before it was unsafe to send in slicks. He got pissed off and said something about being in the service and to accept some risk. Hoon woke up in time for the descent so we didn't have much of a chance to talk, but when we got on the ground I asked for our flak jackets back. The look on he and his party's faces was priceless. I explained that we didn't have enough jackets for all of our own crews at Thumrait, but that I was sure that the Army guys outside had some jackets for them."
nigegilb is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2007, 13:55
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: USA
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
With 'Wobbly West' and the others, who only shout once they are 'out', it leaves little confidence in the higher chain giving even the smallest stuff for anything other than their own careers (or have I heard that before?)

If Mr West can be so malleable as to swing 180 degrees after a short meeting with GB ("wanna keep your job or what?") you have to ask how strongly he fought for corner when in charge.

Why cannot the services have senior officers with backbone?
Groucho is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2007, 14:26
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Darling - where are we?
Posts: 2,580
Received 7 Likes on 5 Posts
And the rebuttal from our part-time Minister:

Our forces are the best, and deserve the best. Few people can be more aware than I am that we are now asking a lot of the services and their families. Iraq and Afghanistan place huge demands on our personnel. Many have been wounded; some have lost their lives. Every death or injury saddens me greatly, although this of course can be nothing to the pain and loss suffered by the families.

I sense a growing public appreciation of the sacrifices that our forces and their families make. Last Sunday, I was proud to pay my respects at the Cenotaph as the nation remembered all the gallant men and women who have made sacrifices in the service of their country. Remembrance Sunday is a day to honour not only the dead, but also the survivors, especially the wounded. This year it was noticeable how many young people wore poppies. The nation - and the nation includes this Government - holds our forces in great esteem. All of us want to see that esteem grow and build.

But those who claim the Covenant between the Government and the Armed Forces is in any way broken are wrong. That does not mean that we, the Government, cannot do better. But the truth is that we strive constantly to ensure that the Armed Forces have the best possible package of care.

The facts speak for themselves.

Our operational welfare package has been boosted with a tax-free operational bonus, more phone calls home, better internet access and a year-round free parcel service.

Healthcare provision for the Armed Forces is exceptional, whether it is in-theatre, at Selly Oak, or at Headley Court, where our rehabilitation is widely acknowledged as being world class. The care we provide now has undoubtedly saved many more lives than would have been the case even a few years ago. We have listened to concerns for more of a military environment for the wounded and have put this in place at Selly Oak.

We also take mental healthcare very seriously. A great deal has been done in developing our responses to the stresses of military life. A mental health team deploys to every sizeable operational theatre, and after deployment we try to ensure personnel get a "decompression period" to unwind. If specialist assessment and treatment is needed it can be carried out at any of 15 military Community Mental Health centres in the UK.

Veterans can use the Medical Assessment Programme at St Thomas' hospital where they will see a clinician with a background in military psychiatry. This scheme will soon be supported even further by military experts working with NHS mental health trusts. Treatment for qualifying war pensioners is organised by Combat Stress, to which we have greatly increased our funding. War pensioners are entitled to priority NHS treatment for any disability which is accepted as having been caused or aggravated by service.

Despite media reports, we are providing by far the best kit our forces have ever had - delivering more than £10 billions' worth in the past three years.
We have initiated a rolling programme that is flexible, responsive and delivers good kit on time to the front line. We have spent over £1 billion on force protection, and more on new helicopters, unmanned aerial vehicles and weapons. We've just announced that we are buying 140 more Mastiff vehicles for operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. We will do more.

The opinions from the people who really matter - those on the front line - are encouraging. On my recent visits to Iraq and Afghanistan, troops gave positive feedback on a range of equipment we have delivered: Mastiff, Bulldog and Viking vehicles, Osprey body armour, Challenger tanks and base security. As the senior British commander in southern Iraq, Maj Gen Jonathan Shaw, said in June: "I have never seen a theatre so well supplied with new kit… this steady trickle of new kit has had real and almost instantaneous impact."

So we are making good progress. But there is a lot more to be done. I would certainly acknowledge that some service accommodation is not up to standard. We are working hard to put this right, but it cannot be done instantly. This year, we will spend £870 million (up from £700 million last year), and we plan to spend over £5 billion over the next decade. This is a big project that will take time. We are dealing with a legacy of under-investment that goes back decades. We are also helping people to buy their own homes and look to do more in this area.

We keep these levels of support under constant review. The Ministry of Defence is working closely with other departments to make sure that Government as a whole delivers for our Armed Forces. The new Cross-Government Strategy on Service Personnel will let us examine our progress, take a fresh look at a number of areas and to set out our agenda for support in housing, health, education, skills or welfare. No government has done this before.

This Government is demonstrating how it values our forces and their families by ensuring it delivers the support they deserve.

I hope the public will support the forces just as much. I am confident they will.
Christ, I think I'm going to throw up. I have highlighted the only accurate bit of the rebuttal towards the end. Yes, the Govt is demonstrating how it values the forces by disaplaying complete and utter contempt for its people, its institutions and its heritage.

I'm not usually one to be lost for words, but I am rapidly becoming unspeakably angry with the leadership, sorry maangement shown by our senior leaders, the lack of leadership or management shown by the likes of Loader et al and the sheer transparancy of anyone in a light blue uniform at the highest levels ..... is that what they meant when they said they wanted to introduce transparent government?

So, you're delivering the support the forces deserve Mr Brown? Please tell us why you think we deserve to be shafted every single day we turn up for duty by this administration.
Melchett01 is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2007, 14:31
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The Roman Empire
Posts: 2,452
Received 73 Likes on 33 Posts
If RAF numbers drop significantly below the current target (approx 41,000) then we may find out that Sir Clive Loader is only a '....simple airman.....' and perhaps he didn't '......make the best choice of words....'!!!
Biggus is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2007, 14:56
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South of Old Warden
Age: 87
Posts: 1,375
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
quote
'so well supplied with new kit… this steady trickle of new kit'

In one sentence 'well supplied' becomes 'steady trickle'
Has he chosen the right words?.
goudie is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2007, 15:40
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: cambridgeshire
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
This is the first time that I have posted onto this site, so please forgive me for lack of introduction. However this subject I feel has now become so important that I feel that I have to put hand to keyboard to join the debate. I completly agree with what General Dannatt has mentioned in the report and it strikes me with so much anger on how, our part time defence minister can only conjour up such a weak and ill thought out statment to his running of our Armed Forces. I agree 100% with Melchett01 has previously said. I cannot understand why our senior leadership have not had the inclination to start supporting what General Dannett is trying to do. The, (can do) attitude can only go so far and I think we are all at the end of it. Large amounts of folks are leaving when they are needed more than ever and it is so frustrating to see that nothing is being activley done to stop the rot. What is going on at the top? Do we have a voice that they are listening to? Are they speaking to the right people in the service? Who knows. The only thing that I can see, is that we are going to be facing a serious crisis in manpower or commitments to operations in the near future. Our senior leadership have got to start doing something and soon.
The Dodger is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2007, 17:37
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 685
Received 10 Likes on 6 Posts
For those who haven't seen it, Swiss Des has an opinion piece in the Sunday Telegraph today:

The Armed Forces are safe in my hands

From the comments on the Telegraph site, few appear to agree with him...
hoodie is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2007, 06:59
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: WSM
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The telegraph story is based on the CGS briefing team report which will include individual statements from soldiers that can easily be taken out of context. From my experience of working alongside earlier versions of these teams (3 years with the AFBLT) I can tell you that the final report will have, as annexes, almost every comment made to the team. They will usually be grouped together under an appropriate heading - PAYD, JPA etc, and it is the overall weight of opinion that is important as opposed to isolated, but included, comments. The way the information is gathered, recorded and, particularly, presented is primarily down to the team leader. He/she is usually of Lt Col or Wg Cdr rank and is subject to chain of command pressures in the way the report is presented. I'm not questioning any individuals moral fibre but the recent events concerning Lord West are illuminating perhaps.

My point is that MoD are correct in saying that these comments may be from individuals and not necessarily representative of the overall view (from your own experience with the UK press which comments do you think would be quoted) but the fact that CGS, for whom the report was produced, has made the conclusions that he has speaks volumes IMHO.

As i've said before, when the AFLT made similar comment the report was buried and the team disbanded.
endplay is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.