Typhoon - Right after all? Discuss
Rather than send £60m a pop Typhoons to AFG (and risk being shot down by a pocket-money DShK), why not send a whole load of cheaper A10s, SU25s or, dare I say it, Hunters?
And even if there were loads of them "spare", we haven't got the money to buy any!! You cannot just magic money up a whole load of money to buy new kit tomorrow! You have to use what you have available or what you already have in the EP. Only a significant uplift in the Defence budget (and I don't mean the prOOne much smoke and mirrors increase) I mean enough to buy a new capability (even if there was one on the shelf) plus all the personnel and training infrastructure that goes with it. And even then it would take a few years to get the capability into service.
So lets introduce the much vaunted A10 (which isn't actually in production) how many squadrons do we need? 3? 4? Well that isn't working with the GR7/9 force, so maybe 5? Or 6? How many ac and crews per sqn? How many ground crew do we need to support them? When do we need those aircrew and groundcrew to enter training to meet a frontline capability when all these aircraft are delivered next year. 2 years ago? 3 years ago? 4 years ago? And where do all the additional QFIs and ground instructors come from to meet the additional training? The overstretched frontline?
Get real. The Typhoon, love it or hate it, is on its way. It has been introduced in the A2A role first because our lords and masters decided that there were higher priorities than delivering it with an A2G role from the outset. Mistake? Possibly, but also history. We can't change it. There is NO realistic alternative.
The Typhoon will make a fantastic CAS platform I'm sure. Big wing, 2 powerful engines and some nice new avionics. It's always better to turn a fighter into a bomber. Look at the F3 and the F15E.
So lets all stop arguing. We have Typhoon now. We don't have A10s or Hunters. Still laughing at the thought of the Su25s.
Yes, we also need more AT, SH and the rest. While we're at it, I'd also like a pay rise. And I don't want to pay tax when I spend 6+ months of the year abroad. But neither of these things are going to happen.
We traditionally have had to make do with what we have in the UK, but in the Typhoon we have a fantastic airframe with lots of potential. I for one will be a happy man when it gets to prove its worth in the Stan, and not just because it means I get to come home
So lets all stop arguing. We have Typhoon now. We don't have A10s or Hunters. Still laughing at the thought of the Su25s.
Yes, we also need more AT, SH and the rest. While we're at it, I'd also like a pay rise. And I don't want to pay tax when I spend 6+ months of the year abroad. But neither of these things are going to happen.
We traditionally have had to make do with what we have in the UK, but in the Typhoon we have a fantastic airframe with lots of potential. I for one will be a happy man when it gets to prove its worth in the Stan, and not just because it means I get to come home
The point being that the 'Phoon (or other modern fast jet) can actually do a decent CAS job these days. It was not always so, because when you had to visual-bomb or strafe the fast jet was (a) unwieldy and (b) vulnerable in the profiles that had to be flown.
Litening III and laser-guided or J-class weapons are the great equalizer. To do CAS, you need a decent, diverse weapon load, the kind of sensors in the Litening III pod (or similar), comms and cockpit displays.
OK, an A-10's got better endurance over the target, as a subsonic aircraft.
But X years down the line, dealing with an adversary with some air defense capability - not even fighters, a few missiles will do - it can't do that job. Neither is it going to penetrate into hostile territory, nor do a standoff missile mission.
Litening III and laser-guided or J-class weapons are the great equalizer. To do CAS, you need a decent, diverse weapon load, the kind of sensors in the Litening III pod (or similar), comms and cockpit displays.
OK, an A-10's got better endurance over the target, as a subsonic aircraft.
But X years down the line, dealing with an adversary with some air defense capability - not even fighters, a few missiles will do - it can't do that job. Neither is it going to penetrate into hostile territory, nor do a standoff missile mission.
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LAL
Fine, Typhoon is realistically the way forward. However the RAF delivery of CAS will only improve if the aircraft have the kit to get them on the target quickly. I assume that you are involved with the present defenders of the Stan. My statement of "doesn't need to talk to" meant exactly that. It didn't mean that FAC were not in the loop.
I have no idea if you know the proceedure and time to translate what the FAC "talks" to get the info required by the pilot for accurate weapons delivery. I have flown as a passenger on a CAS exercise and know I was pulling "g" for 15 mins as the pilot tried to determine the FAC's info. IDM can have that info in the kit and weapons "Hot" in less that half that time. The weapons limited bomber could have operated in the cooler months, but politics put paid to that...
Typhoon may be the best thing since sliced bread and have weapons systems that put a bomb into a CEP of a metre, but the pilot still needs to know were to put it and speed saves guys lives.....
Our government in 91, had no problem in budgeting extras for our aircraft in GW1, if history and my memory are correct..
Fine, Typhoon is realistically the way forward. However the RAF delivery of CAS will only improve if the aircraft have the kit to get them on the target quickly. I assume that you are involved with the present defenders of the Stan. My statement of "doesn't need to talk to" meant exactly that. It didn't mean that FAC were not in the loop.
I have no idea if you know the proceedure and time to translate what the FAC "talks" to get the info required by the pilot for accurate weapons delivery. I have flown as a passenger on a CAS exercise and know I was pulling "g" for 15 mins as the pilot tried to determine the FAC's info. IDM can have that info in the kit and weapons "Hot" in less that half that time. The weapons limited bomber could have operated in the cooler months, but politics put paid to that...
Typhoon may be the best thing since sliced bread and have weapons systems that put a bomb into a CEP of a metre, but the pilot still needs to know were to put it and speed saves guys lives.....
Our government in 91, had no problem in budgeting extras for our aircraft in GW1, if history and my memory are correct..
Roland, you said
If you check out Hawker Hunter Aviation at Scampton (not sure if they have a website), I think you'll find they have at least 10 low-hours, airworthy, ex-Swiss Mk 58s, which they use for threat simulation, complete with ECM etc.
I imagine they might be available to HMG, should they be required. At a price, natch.
airsound (no connection with HHA, honest)
Because there aren't a "whole load of cheaper A10s" in our inventory. Or Su-25s. Or Hunters!!
I imagine they might be available to HMG, should they be required. At a price, natch.
airsound (no connection with HHA, honest)
"IDM can have that info in the kit and weapons "Hot" in less that half that time. The weapons limited bomber could have operated in the cooler months, but politics put paid to that..."
Once they extended Kandahar, the Jag could have operated there, period!
Albeit not with a great weaponload, but certainly with one gun and a decent number of rounds (one ammo tray housed IDM IIRC), a couple of cans of CRV7, or a couple of PWs - especially if someone had procured a more suitable sized bomb to strap the kits to.
And isn't it the case that AFG has underlined the value of the gun and rockets as the most discriminatory weapon for CAS?
And the Harrier can't do strafe (no gun) and there seems no evidence that Tornado has done it in theatre (do they use the ammo trays for something else in AFG?).
Even operating only as a spiker or a recce platform, it would have allowed the Harriers and Tornados to fly fewer hours, and to stand more of a chance of making ot through to their planned OSDs without major structural programmes, and could have spread the op burden to a force whose air and groundcrew had soaring morale and great esprit.
Once they extended Kandahar, the Jag could have operated there, period!
Albeit not with a great weaponload, but certainly with one gun and a decent number of rounds (one ammo tray housed IDM IIRC), a couple of cans of CRV7, or a couple of PWs - especially if someone had procured a more suitable sized bomb to strap the kits to.
And isn't it the case that AFG has underlined the value of the gun and rockets as the most discriminatory weapon for CAS?
And the Harrier can't do strafe (no gun) and there seems no evidence that Tornado has done it in theatre (do they use the ammo trays for something else in AFG?).
Even operating only as a spiker or a recce platform, it would have allowed the Harriers and Tornados to fly fewer hours, and to stand more of a chance of making ot through to their planned OSDs without major structural programmes, and could have spread the op burden to a force whose air and groundcrew had soaring morale and great esprit.
Airsound
Thank you, I would love to own a Hunter but persuading Mrs RP might be difficult. And yes they have a website (although with a London phone number) http://www.hunterteam.com/main.htm. However 10 ancient Hunters that aren't equipped with any of the items that Albert talks about aren't going to do much when our 60+ GR7/9s are struggling to cope.
If we are going into the realms of fantasy then surely something like the Mosquito would be better. Cheap, hardy, excellent firepower (4 x 20mm and 4 x .303 plus 4 x 500lb bombs) easy to repair, endurance.........
Thank you, I would love to own a Hunter but persuading Mrs RP might be difficult. And yes they have a website (although with a London phone number) http://www.hunterteam.com/main.htm. However 10 ancient Hunters that aren't equipped with any of the items that Albert talks about aren't going to do much when our 60+ GR7/9s are struggling to cope.
If we are going into the realms of fantasy then surely something like the Mosquito would be better. Cheap, hardy, excellent firepower (4 x 20mm and 4 x .303 plus 4 x 500lb bombs) easy to repair, endurance.........
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Albeit not with a great weaponload, but certainly with one gun and a decent number of rounds (one ammo tray housed IDM IIRC), a couple of cans of CRV7, or a couple of PWs - especially if someone had procured a more suitable sized bomb to strap the kits to.
And isn't it the case that AFG has underlined the value of the gun and rockets as the most discriminatory weapon for CAS?
But Typhoon can do that and more, can't it??????
And isn't it the case that AFG has underlined the value of the gun and rockets as the most discriminatory weapon for CAS?
But Typhoon can do that and more, can't it??????
Last edited by Alber Ratman; 31st Oct 2007 at 20:50.
Mosquito..hmmm...Low RCS as well! Of course, you are right about Typhoon, it is the Train that we have been put on (to use current Staff Bullsh*t) and there are definately no branch lines coming up in the near future! My point is not that Typhoon is necessarily wrong, and having flown against it I am in awe of some of the things I've seen it do, but I despair a little at the "theoretical future" debate when we are very much involved in high intensity combat Ops, now. I see nothing wrong in focussing resource to maximise effect in the near term, which has immediate and tangible benefit for Tommy on the ground, rather than in the BAES boardroom. I know, utopian given the Byzantine culture which pervades the MoD. But, maybe, just once, we can pass up a new jamming pod here, Sqn building there or an umpteenth Red Flag etc to pump some resource into genuinely life saving capability like a dedicated "dust-off" helo, thus releasing SH assets to do the other stuff.
I appreciate that PR08 is not going to solve this issue, but do we need to change behaviours before PR10 (of course there won't be a PR09..)? Guess what, I can't see the CPF funding everything..
Sorry about the Hunter bit, a vainglorious last stab at cadging a trip in one...!!
I appreciate that PR08 is not going to solve this issue, but do we need to change behaviours before PR10 (of course there won't be a PR09..)? Guess what, I can't see the CPF funding everything..
Sorry about the Hunter bit, a vainglorious last stab at cadging a trip in one...!!
Alber
I am very much involved in the current Stan scenario as we speak, and can assure you that I am very current with working with JTACs.
I am not going to talk specifics on an open forum such as this, but let's just say that if we had IDM out here in the current CAS jet it would make not one bit of difference. I shall say no more than that, so you'll have to trust me that it's true.
Not to say that IDM isn't good, and I've some experience of working with it in a previous life, but it has to be available to everyone in theatre before it can be used. A talk on from a JTAC doesn't take that long, and it takes less than a minute to put some co-ords in the kit and have a sensor down on the grid.
Jacko
I'm afraid you may have some duff info there. Again, nothing will be said here on this forum.
I am very much involved in the current Stan scenario as we speak, and can assure you that I am very current with working with JTACs.
I am not going to talk specifics on an open forum such as this, but let's just say that if we had IDM out here in the current CAS jet it would make not one bit of difference. I shall say no more than that, so you'll have to trust me that it's true.
Not to say that IDM isn't good, and I've some experience of working with it in a previous life, but it has to be available to everyone in theatre before it can be used. A talk on from a JTAC doesn't take that long, and it takes less than a minute to put some co-ords in the kit and have a sensor down on the grid.
Jacko
I'm afraid you may have some duff info there. Again, nothing will be said here on this forum.
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I'm not going to agrue on what you see. I am an ex Cott guy how knows the problems of life of the jumpers. I also know about the swingers as they are my beast at the mo.
However is Interdiction / Bear hunting the overiding corcern of the organization that employs us?? Is the new kid going to do any better that the existing player???
Time will tell....
However is Interdiction / Bear hunting the overiding corcern of the organization that employs us?? Is the new kid going to do any better that the existing player???
Time will tell....
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Jacko
I'm afraid you may have some duff info there. Again, nothing will be said here on this forum.
Too true. Jacko mate, I'm afraid you've been spending far too much time with (ex)Jag guys who (not necessarily through any fault of their own) have not seen the reality of current CAS situations. Again, details far too sensitive for this forum but your comments on all FJ airframes other than the, thankfully retired, Jag are at best inaccurate. Although... 'a couple of PWs' ???! Come on, give us all a break!
I think it's all been said previously... Typhoon is here, it will go on Ops and those involved will certainly make it work. End of.
I'm afraid you may have some duff info there. Again, nothing will be said here on this forum.
Too true. Jacko mate, I'm afraid you've been spending far too much time with (ex)Jag guys who (not necessarily through any fault of their own) have not seen the reality of current CAS situations. Again, details far too sensitive for this forum but your comments on all FJ airframes other than the, thankfully retired, Jag are at best inaccurate. Although... 'a couple of PWs' ???! Come on, give us all a break!
I think it's all been said previously... Typhoon is here, it will go on Ops and those involved will certainly make it work. End of.
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For those without access to Truth Central (for those who have, http://defenceintranet.diiweb.r.mil....RafTyphoon.htm );
Not autonomous yet, then.
First bomb drop for RAF Typhoon 21/11/2007
The RAF's newest and most versatile multi-role fighter, the Eurofighter Typhoon, has dropped its first in-service bomb scoring a direct hit on a target at sea off the Welsh coast.
The RAF Typhoon carried out the trial alongside a BAE Systems twin-seat Typhoon carrying a Rafael Litening lll laser pod which illuminated the target. The laser guided the Paveway 2 dropped by the RAF Typhoon straight to the target.
The pilot of the BAE Systems aircraft who was from the Operational Evaluation Unit, 17 (Reserve) Squadron, also based at RAF Coningsby, said:
"The drop ran very smoothly and is testament to the exceptional performance of the aircraft even at this early stage of multi-role development."
Typhoon Project Team Leader, Air Commodore Chris Bushell, added:
"This successful weapons trial is an important step on the route towards achieving multi-role capability for Typhoon. The result of this trial has emphasised the effectiveness that this will add to the Typhoon fleet and that delivery of the future operational multi-role aircraft is on track."
Baroness Taylor, Minister for Defence Equipment and Support, said:
"Typhoon is an exceptional fighter jet; we have already seen it perform in its air-to-air role in June this year when it defended UK airspace.
"The first RAF bomb drop is a significant step towards the Typhoon being ready for operational use."
Trials are continuing to perfect its bomb-dropping techniques with a view to achieving an initial air-to-ground attack capability by the summer of 2008. This follows on from the aircraft being declared operational in the air-to-air role, defending UK air space from aerial threats, on 29 June 2007.
The RAF's newest and most versatile multi-role fighter, the Eurofighter Typhoon, has dropped its first in-service bomb scoring a direct hit on a target at sea off the Welsh coast.
The RAF Typhoon carried out the trial alongside a BAE Systems twin-seat Typhoon carrying a Rafael Litening lll laser pod which illuminated the target. The laser guided the Paveway 2 dropped by the RAF Typhoon straight to the target.
The pilot of the BAE Systems aircraft who was from the Operational Evaluation Unit, 17 (Reserve) Squadron, also based at RAF Coningsby, said:
"The drop ran very smoothly and is testament to the exceptional performance of the aircraft even at this early stage of multi-role development."
Typhoon Project Team Leader, Air Commodore Chris Bushell, added:
"This successful weapons trial is an important step on the route towards achieving multi-role capability for Typhoon. The result of this trial has emphasised the effectiveness that this will add to the Typhoon fleet and that delivery of the future operational multi-role aircraft is on track."
Baroness Taylor, Minister for Defence Equipment and Support, said:
"Typhoon is an exceptional fighter jet; we have already seen it perform in its air-to-air role in June this year when it defended UK airspace.
"The first RAF bomb drop is a significant step towards the Typhoon being ready for operational use."
Trials are continuing to perfect its bomb-dropping techniques with a view to achieving an initial air-to-ground attack capability by the summer of 2008. This follows on from the aircraft being declared operational in the air-to-air role, defending UK air space from aerial threats, on 29 June 2007.
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I think Spugs right. Good, bad or indefferent it's all there is or is going to be so it's going to the desert and it's going to do a job. Period. A PW2 from a Typhoon will hurt just as much as PW2 from an A-10; they'll both ruin your day when they lands in yer mess tins. Or your naan.
(And it might prove a bit handy if one ahem 'strays' over the border, eh?!
)
(And it might prove a bit handy if one ahem 'strays' over the border, eh?!
)
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GBZ,
First autonomous drop by Typhoon actually occurred a while ago when BT005 self-designated a PWII:
http://defence-data.com/current/page38635.htm
First drop by a frontline RAF sqn was on 21 November and was cooperatively designated by BT005. Pod for frontline expected in the new year. . .
First autonomous drop by Typhoon actually occurred a while ago when BT005 self-designated a PWII:
http://defence-data.com/current/page38635.htm
First drop by a frontline RAF sqn was on 21 November and was cooperatively designated by BT005. Pod for frontline expected in the new year. . .
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mmmm debatable thread, Agree the current climate and conflict we are in needs the chopper boys and CAS, in a few years when we take on Iran and China we will nedd some decent fighters but for now some good Choppers and a few A10s from the Americans to help the Apaches
