Fast jet experience of a lifetime
NRB
It's normally a disclaimer that says your relatives can not sue the DoD in the event that you are killed. It's not always presented for signature, and some Air Forces (the Swiss, for example) don't appear to have such a waiver.
It's normally a disclaimer that says your relatives can not sue the DoD in the event that you are killed. It's not always presented for signature, and some Air Forces (the Swiss, for example) don't appear to have such a waiver.
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"A Pax in an RAF FJ aircraft should not be placed under a "G" loading of 6.5 and the rules are explict on this. The limit is 2/3rds of the last value."
Really - take a 21 year old SAC Liney ... me, 1 Group Captain (not far from promotion and leaving the station) and a Hawk needing a full air test. Up to 44,000ft …. Mach 0.98 downhill …. 4 turn spin to the right … 4 turn spin to the left ….. whilst trying to write down figures from the front seat and throw up at the same time. Fly it from the rear seat, cycle gear / flaps etc. Down to low level, 8g somewhere near Llanwrst – ‘that really hurt’, out to sea low level max chat, test airbrake into circuit and land.
Trip time 59 minutes, had to be helped exit the jet, felt ill for 4 days.
That is exactly as I remember it, it was 1991 and I hope the limits quoted above are enforced to stop young men thinking they can handle anything ‘old man – harry staish’ can throw at them.
If you are out there, Ex Gp Cpt Andy Griffin thank you, it was one hell of a first, of many, fast jet trips.
Really - take a 21 year old SAC Liney ... me, 1 Group Captain (not far from promotion and leaving the station) and a Hawk needing a full air test. Up to 44,000ft …. Mach 0.98 downhill …. 4 turn spin to the right … 4 turn spin to the left ….. whilst trying to write down figures from the front seat and throw up at the same time. Fly it from the rear seat, cycle gear / flaps etc. Down to low level, 8g somewhere near Llanwrst – ‘that really hurt’, out to sea low level max chat, test airbrake into circuit and land.
Trip time 59 minutes, had to be helped exit the jet, felt ill for 4 days.
That is exactly as I remember it, it was 1991 and I hope the limits quoted above are enforced to stop young men thinking they can handle anything ‘old man – harry staish’ can throw at them.
If you are out there, Ex Gp Cpt Andy Griffin thank you, it was one hell of a first, of many, fast jet trips.
The Cooler King
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Am trying to arrange a flight in a fast jet over here at the moment.
Have been told Hawk or perhaps F-16 if I was extremely lucky but we'll see how it goes.
Have been told Hawk or perhaps F-16 if I was extremely lucky but we'll see how it goes.
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I just want to clarify a few points for those currently being scared off ever going in a FJ. This applies to the RAF - the USAF appear to be completely diffeerent.
If you get a pax ride, the limitations are quite stringent (g, rate of climb/descent, no low-level, no ACT etc). Most pilots will fly in a professional manner and, despite what some have said here, the trip is almost always for the benefit of the pax. NOT the pilot. From plenty of experience, there are extremely few (if any) people who could go from no flying experience to a full-up mission without feeling very crap and/or being physically sick. As someone else said, 30-40 mins is about right but as the trip will probably be longer the pilot will normally go on a tour - maybe a PD to the pax's last/next station, maybe see some well known sights from the air - primarily guided by what the pax wants.
Of course none of this means that you cant wind it up a bit - but towards the end of the trip is much better and only if the pax wants to. A pax trip is the time to wind down the testosterone and give someone the trip of a lifetime that they will never forget - for the right reasons.
If you fly on an airtest it is as part of the crew, not as a pax (they aren't allowed on full airtests last time I looked). Groundcrew often qualify under different cateegories than basic pax, so different limitations can be applied, ditto those with an aircrew medical (heavies, helos, holding officers).
For the non-aircrew please do not be put off by some of the posts in this thread - the vast majority of pax pilots (you have to be specifically nominated and qualified) will give you an extremely enjoyable and unforgettable experience. If you ever get a chance, grab it!
If you get a pax ride, the limitations are quite stringent (g, rate of climb/descent, no low-level, no ACT etc). Most pilots will fly in a professional manner and, despite what some have said here, the trip is almost always for the benefit of the pax. NOT the pilot. From plenty of experience, there are extremely few (if any) people who could go from no flying experience to a full-up mission without feeling very crap and/or being physically sick. As someone else said, 30-40 mins is about right but as the trip will probably be longer the pilot will normally go on a tour - maybe a PD to the pax's last/next station, maybe see some well known sights from the air - primarily guided by what the pax wants.
Of course none of this means that you cant wind it up a bit - but towards the end of the trip is much better and only if the pax wants to. A pax trip is the time to wind down the testosterone and give someone the trip of a lifetime that they will never forget - for the right reasons.
If you fly on an airtest it is as part of the crew, not as a pax (they aren't allowed on full airtests last time I looked). Groundcrew often qualify under different cateegories than basic pax, so different limitations can be applied, ditto those with an aircrew medical (heavies, helos, holding officers).
For the non-aircrew please do not be put off by some of the posts in this thread - the vast majority of pax pilots (you have to be specifically nominated and qualified) will give you an extremely enjoyable and unforgettable experience. If you ever get a chance, grab it!
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Jeez, what are they whining about, at least they got to go up. 9 sodding years as an RAF Fireman and all I got was a bleedn 6 hour flight in a Andover doing calibration checks somewhere up north. I would give my right tes>>>>le (and prolly my stomach contents ) to go up in a fast jet.
) to go up in a fast jet.
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Going back afew years now, 1977-1981 to be precise at CFS Cranwell I was but a simple Rigger on the line. I managed to blag my first trip in a JP5a for the morning weather check. Loved every second of it which led to me getting on every type of sortie possible, Wx Checks, Air Tests and as much Low Level and Aeros as possible. Got around 20 hours in the end and only GLOC'd once on a low level student tail chase from one side of Scotland to the other then back up Loch Ness at 250' (Ish 
). We were on Det at Kinloss at the time, all I remember was the QFI saying "I have control" and then lots of 'g'. Remember waking up thinking I was in my grandmas kitchen (Strange thing the mind) Later saw 6.5-7 on the accelerometer. I would not have changed one thing on any of the sorties I did, never threw up and had great fun. The QFI I had most fun with was Flt Lt Dave Patterson, who I believe ended up on Buccs and the UTP whose name escapes me. And yes, before anyone pipes up, I know the JP wasn't a FJ and that it was variable noise constant thrust, or lack thereof.........was great fun though.
). We were on Det at Kinloss at the time, all I remember was the QFI saying "I have control" and then lots of 'g'. Remember waking up thinking I was in my grandmas kitchen (Strange thing the mind) Later saw 6.5-7 on the accelerometer. I would not have changed one thing on any of the sorties I did, never threw up and had great fun. The QFI I had most fun with was Flt Lt Dave Patterson, who I believe ended up on Buccs and the UTP whose name escapes me. And yes, before anyone pipes up, I know the JP wasn't a FJ and that it was variable noise constant thrust, or lack thereof.........was great fun though.
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It could have been worse than a sports journo. When I was on my first tour on XI, I confided to the boss that one of those scary army nurses at Akrotiri wanted to get in my pants. I asked for some fatherly advice about how to avoid her and he passed on some top tips. Imagine my surprise when my pax the next day had transformed from a 5' 9" brunette babe into said moose.
So I had a choice, make her barf or make her think what great guys we all were. I choose the latter and was saved by a myopic nav and 10 pints of Heiny.
Rick Reilly could write a humourous article about his mother's funeral. Take it in the spirit it was intended!
Ghost
So I had a choice, make her barf or make her think what great guys we all were. I choose the latter and was saved by a myopic nav and 10 pints of Heiny.
Rick Reilly could write a humourous article about his mother's funeral. Take it in the spirit it was intended!
Ghost
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I can also confirm that those quoted g limits for RAF pax flights are often very flexible!
I'm also inclined to add that if that original article was really published in a commercial magazine, the publishers ought to be ashamed of themselves. I've seen better written English from five year-olds!
All this reminds me of a couple of rides I scrounged off the Blue Angels a few years back. In typical American "can-do" fashion, they have a miniature TV camera attached to the instrument coaming in their T-Bird's rear cockpit, so they can produce a video for all their happy customers. Unfortunately, when the g load starts winding up past 7g, the recorder head slips of the tape and you lose the picture - so much for technology, doh! Still, this was years ago, maybe they've gone digital now?
I'm also inclined to add that if that original article was really published in a commercial magazine, the publishers ought to be ashamed of themselves. I've seen better written English from five year-olds!
All this reminds me of a couple of rides I scrounged off the Blue Angels a few years back. In typical American "can-do" fashion, they have a miniature TV camera attached to the instrument coaming in their T-Bird's rear cockpit, so they can produce a video for all their happy customers. Unfortunately, when the g load starts winding up past 7g, the recorder head slips of the tape and you lose the picture - so much for technology, doh! Still, this was years ago, maybe they've gone digital now?
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The common theme seems to be that no matter how sick the lucky barstewards in the back get, for them the experience as a whole gets a big big thumbs up
Been lucky enough in my time to ride in a Chipmonk, Bulldog, Jag, Hawk and Harrier and luckily never barked but even if I had it would not have stopped me coming back for more, and was a big factor when deciding on whether to try for NCA
Been lucky enough in my time to ride in a Chipmonk, Bulldog, Jag, Hawk and Harrier and luckily never barked but even if I had it would not have stopped me coming back for more, and was a big factor when deciding on whether to try for NCA
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I for one,with no military flying experience whatsoever; dare any of you Fast Jet jockeys to take me up and make me puke ( no skunks on the mask or any other dirty trick, just gravity and your 1 to 1 ratio ). I'll get my behind to any place this or the other side of the pond, and afterwards beers/milk are on me, regardless of your success.
Cheers.
Cheers.
> Unfortunately, when the g load starts winding up past 7g, the recorder head
> slips of the tape and you lose the picture - so much for technology, doh!
> Still, this was years ago, maybe they've gone digital now?
Digital or not it's still tape and spinning heads (or possibly flash memory, but only very very recently). However, while they fully expected this to happen when shooting the Red Arrows stuff recently, it didn't. This was with the HDCAM-SR tape format and (I believe) SRW-1 tape decks, which are usually used in no more strenuous circumstances than a camera dolly.
Phil
> slips of the tape and you lose the picture - so much for technology, doh!
> Still, this was years ago, maybe they've gone digital now?
Digital or not it's still tape and spinning heads (or possibly flash memory, but only very very recently). However, while they fully expected this to happen when shooting the Red Arrows stuff recently, it didn't. This was with the HDCAM-SR tape format and (I believe) SRW-1 tape decks, which are usually used in no more strenuous circumstances than a camera dolly.
Phil
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"Jeez, what are they whining about",
I'm not whining, ok, I was as sick as dog but my god what an experience and it didn't stop me going back for another 20+ Hawk trips, lots of helicopter hours and 1 outstanding F3 trip our of Akrotiri.
I'm not whining, ok, I was as sick as dog but my god what an experience and it didn't stop me going back for another 20+ Hawk trips, lots of helicopter hours and 1 outstanding F3 trip our of Akrotiri.
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I was very lucky to get 5 FJ trips during my time in the RAF - not a boast, just a fact. During the first four, I never got the feeling the guys were trying to make me sick - but I barfed nonetheless
The last, an F3 trip out of MPA, I could be forgiven for thinking that he might have been trying to. Suited and booted as I was in an immersion suit (with lovely thermals and woollies below), g-pants, LSJ etc. He let me know after departure that the cabin conditioner (or whatever it was called and I'm sure I'll be corrected) was stuck on hot
Given what we were about to do, the writing was already on the wall or the barf already earmarked for the bag. Did it bother me? Not one bit. They'd (1435 Flt) had taken the trouble to fly me and I still managed to 'enjoy' the trip - including one particularly sporty snottex
I even barfed when I got back into Ops - good stat
Bottom line is that if you are lucky enough to blag a trip, you should accept that the fairly alien environment you find yourself in will probably lead to you chucking up. The smells, the 'G', the mask and the rest of the kit all take a fair bit of getting used to. I don't know if many pilots deliberately set out to make people barf, but in my experience, not too much 'G' will eventually lead to you being sick. 30-40 mins into the trip does seem about right. A few lucky individuals appear to have a stronger constitution and get through it with no obvious ill effects - however I think they are in the minority.
Can FJ pilots afford to be considerate to the Pax in the back, given the pressure on FJ hours and the need to maximise the training value from every sortie? Just an open question and standing by for incoming.
The last, an F3 trip out of MPA, I could be forgiven for thinking that he might have been trying to. Suited and booted as I was in an immersion suit (with lovely thermals and woollies below), g-pants, LSJ etc. He let me know after departure that the cabin conditioner (or whatever it was called and I'm sure I'll be corrected) was stuck on hot Given what we were about to do, the writing was already on the wall or the barf already earmarked for the bag. Did it bother me? Not one bit. They'd (1435 Flt) had taken the trouble to fly me and I still managed to 'enjoy' the trip - including one particularly sporty snottex I even barfed when I got back into Ops - good statBottom line is that if you are lucky enough to blag a trip, you should accept that the fairly alien environment you find yourself in will probably lead to you chucking up. The smells, the 'G', the mask and the rest of the kit all take a fair bit of getting used to. I don't know if many pilots deliberately set out to make people barf, but in my experience, not too much 'G' will eventually lead to you being sick. 30-40 mins into the trip does seem about right. A few lucky individuals appear to have a stronger constitution and get through it with no obvious ill effects - however I think they are in the minority.
Can FJ pilots afford to be considerate to the Pax in the back, given the pressure on FJ hours and the need to maximise the training value from every sortie? Just an open question and standing by for incoming.
Last edited by Wee Jock McPlop; 4th Oct 2007 at 17:04.
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Just an engineer's comment but.... JPs pulling 7g and Hawks 8 - on PAX trips as well!!!
Might have got away with it before fatigue meters but I don't think the riggers would be over chuffed to be doing extensive over stress checks post back seat PAX rides.
In my experience the guys q'd to fly PAX rides are ultimate professionals and never take the PAX past what he/she is comfortable with.
Might have got away with it before fatigue meters but I don't think the riggers would be over chuffed to be doing extensive over stress checks post back seat PAX rides.
In my experience the guys q'd to fly PAX rides are ultimate professionals and never take the PAX past what he/she is comfortable with.
Pax Rides
I flew several pax during my time on the mighty Jag and I can honestly say I never set out to make anyone feel ill. My intention was always that they should enjoy the experience as much as possible.
Unfortunately if you're not used to it, flying in a jet (and all the factors previously mentioned) is just so alien that it's very hard for your body to put up with it!
The fact of the matter is that unless you take off and join the TACAN hold for an hour or so (even that might be too much for some!) there is no way to avoid pulling G and putting the aircraft into flight regimes that are slightly more exotic than you would experience on a Ryanair flight!
The other thing that I noticed was that you could never tell who was going to be able to handle it and who wouldn't. The biggest shock I had was a big, burly PTI who I was convinced would have a cast iron constitution was blowing chunks (sorry!) within half an hour.
Everyone I ever took flying, regardless of how many bags they filled, had the time of their life and wore a huge grin for days afterwards. I think that if you've never been up before, the sight of valley walls flashing past up close and at speed is something that'll stick with you for a long time.
In short, if you get the chance - take it. You don't know what you're missing out on!
Final point - can only vouch for my old aircraft type but Low Level IS allowed for a maximum of 30 minutes per sortie but shouldn't be generated solely for pax purposes.
BV
Unfortunately if you're not used to it, flying in a jet (and all the factors previously mentioned) is just so alien that it's very hard for your body to put up with it!
The fact of the matter is that unless you take off and join the TACAN hold for an hour or so (even that might be too much for some!) there is no way to avoid pulling G and putting the aircraft into flight regimes that are slightly more exotic than you would experience on a Ryanair flight!
The other thing that I noticed was that you could never tell who was going to be able to handle it and who wouldn't. The biggest shock I had was a big, burly PTI who I was convinced would have a cast iron constitution was blowing chunks (sorry!) within half an hour.
Everyone I ever took flying, regardless of how many bags they filled, had the time of their life and wore a huge grin for days afterwards. I think that if you've never been up before, the sight of valley walls flashing past up close and at speed is something that'll stick with you for a long time.
In short, if you get the chance - take it. You don't know what you're missing out on!
Final point - can only vouch for my old aircraft type but Low Level IS allowed for a maximum of 30 minutes per sortie but shouldn't be generated solely for pax purposes.
BV
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From my own experience I would treat all articles written by journo's with a large pinch of salt.
1960 Honington.57 Squadron Victor.we are tasked to take a senior Sunday Express Journo.on a standard 5 hour mission. He had obviously partaken of liberal hospitality during lunch in the Mess and shortly after the 10,000ft. checks was honking like a goodun,asked if we could return as he felt very ill and unable to continue.We return to the circuit to burn off down to landing weight.He was taken to SSQ by ambulance,never to be seen again.
Imagine our surprize come Sunday to read his article,which contained references to steely eyed pilots,effortlessly flight refuelling with Valiants,Navigators dropping peas into barrels on Salisbury plain from 40,00ft. The AEO snuffing out enemy radars,and so on. This gentleman,and I use the word loosely,did'nt leave the circuit.He wrote his piece from sitting in on briefing !!!
1960 Honington.57 Squadron Victor.we are tasked to take a senior Sunday Express Journo.on a standard 5 hour mission. He had obviously partaken of liberal hospitality during lunch in the Mess and shortly after the 10,000ft. checks was honking like a goodun,asked if we could return as he felt very ill and unable to continue.We return to the circuit to burn off down to landing weight.He was taken to SSQ by ambulance,never to be seen again.
Imagine our surprize come Sunday to read his article,which contained references to steely eyed pilots,effortlessly flight refuelling with Valiants,Navigators dropping peas into barrels on Salisbury plain from 40,00ft. The AEO snuffing out enemy radars,and so on. This gentleman,and I use the word loosely,did'nt leave the circuit.He wrote his piece from sitting in on briefing !!!
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“Just an engineer's comment but.... JPs pulling 7g and Hawks 8 - on PAX trips as well!!! Might have got away with it before fatigue meters but I don't think the riggers would be over chuffed to be doing extensive over stress checks post back seat PAX rides.”
Before fatigue meters – the Hawk does have one you know, And unlike the Tonka that can’t turn round without coming close to overstress, the limit on the Hawk (T1) is +9g, but ssshhh, because we’ve put little dayglo stickers on all the g meters so the aircrew think it’s +8!
And remember my first hawk trip as described on this thread wasn’t a pax trip but a full air test. Yes, I now know by all the rules I shouldn’t have been allowed to go (even back then) but I did and it was great. Never figured out how I got a full cat 1 medical for a year with decompression experience etc.
Signed - a current Hawk Rigger instructor.
Before fatigue meters – the Hawk does have one you know, And unlike the Tonka that can’t turn round without coming close to overstress, the limit on the Hawk (T1) is +9g, but ssshhh, because we’ve put little dayglo stickers on all the g meters so the aircrew think it’s +8!
And remember my first hawk trip as described on this thread wasn’t a pax trip but a full air test. Yes, I now know by all the rules I shouldn’t have been allowed to go (even back then) but I did and it was great. Never figured out how I got a full cat 1 medical for a year with decompression experience etc.
Signed - a current Hawk Rigger instructor.
OH
Sounds to me like the journalist's article was good press for the RAF, and so what if it was written based on the brief? I am guessing that 48 years ago at the height of the Cold War all sorts of things were printed that people today would raise an eyebrow to. If he gave the impression that he was present throughout the flight then he deserves a kick up the arse, but that doesn't sound like the case from what you have written.
As for brandishing all journalists as liars based on a solitary incident 48 years ago, you'll find you're in good company here on PPRuNe where the supplies of salt (and spite, vitriol and prejudice) are limitless!
Sounds to me like the journalist's article was good press for the RAF, and so what if it was written based on the brief? I am guessing that 48 years ago at the height of the Cold War all sorts of things were printed that people today would raise an eyebrow to. If he gave the impression that he was present throughout the flight then he deserves a kick up the arse, but that doesn't sound like the case from what you have written.
As for brandishing all journalists as liars based on a solitary incident 48 years ago, you'll find you're in good company here on PPRuNe where the supplies of salt (and spite, vitriol and prejudice) are limitless!
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I was lucky enough to fly with Cmdt CFS (ex Laarbruch Stn Cdr) when at Scampton many moons ago. Hawk trip from Scampton through Lichfield at 180 then LL through Wales and back through Lichfiled, loved every minute. I was encouraged to ask questions and was given control at certain non low level points, pilot went out of his way to make me feel part of the trip by encouraging lookout and reporting traffic at low level (can still see the Tornado that closed in from 7 o clock and went over us with a wing waggle, would have been surprised if he had missed us, it was a Reds jet) and had even given me a copy of the LFC with the route on it. I had a fantastic trip, LL was just amazing and on landing I even got a lift back in the Cmdt's car (the driver outranked me !!), I needed it as the effects of G had a marked result in that all I wanted to do was go kip for a while. Pretty sure we pulled 6g (might have been more but I greyed out then), I also got caught a few times when the G loaded up when I was looking around .. ouch.
The only aircraft that ever made me sick was the Nimrod, If I remember right it was some sort of co-ordination maneouvre where the jet was pointed to 360, 090, 180, 270 and pitched up, then down and rolled right and left at each point.
Funny how the veggie Lasagne is the same colour before and after.
The only aircraft that ever made me sick was the Nimrod, If I remember right it was some sort of co-ordination maneouvre where the jet was pointed to 360, 090, 180, 270 and pitched up, then down and rolled right and left at each point.
Funny how the veggie Lasagne is the same colour before and after.