Forces problems

[weevhearditb4]

It’s clear in light of the SSAFA house problems and our Ghurkha friends that the MoD is not handling anything at all and should rightly be called the Ministry of Donkeys.

It’s about time that the MoD discussed with ex services associations and the military forums the way ahead regarding the governments ill treatment of our forces there can be no other word for it.

I suggest that from now on any - and I mean any Publicly owned forces base or training area should not be sold off to a private developer, but held in trust by a properly run Services/Armed Forces Association run by grown ups so they can assist and help past and serving soldiers, it would certainly help Combat Stress and other organisations.

A better percentage of lottery funds should also be set aside for help and assistance to change these base areas for the good of our Armed Forces.

I don’t know about anyone else I am fed up with the prejudices of the FO and the MoD aimed at our Armed Forces.

I have just watched a rather disturbing piece of footage of my son on night ops in Iraq taken by him perhaps I should show that to Mole Valley Council and my local MP.

End of rant

[L J R]

Unfortunately mate, the armed forces are financially broke (Period)

[Chugalug2]

weevhearditb4, the MOD is the Government Department charged with screwing as much out of the armed forces for as little cost as possible. Voluntarily adding to its costs for no return is a complete no no. The culture there clearly does not see the maintenance of morale as giving any return, hence the appalling situation re housing of families in the UK while their NOK serve abroad, and the minimal medical provision cobbled together with the loss of the military hospitals established for this very scenario. So Mr Pun VC and SSAFA are of no interest to them, unless public outrage threatens an electoral backlash. Military land will go on being flogged off to fill the coffers. If you hadn't noticed the bloke who used to sit in the cashiers cage is now in charge of the shop! Even the service associations have shown themselves way behind the ball, not seeing as their role to become involved in "politics". I have news for them. Politics is becoming involved with them! The only answer that I can see lies in the very medium that we are using. The Gurkha and Headley Court campaigns have brought PPRune, Aarse, eGoat, Rum, etc into unofficial coalition. If that arrangement were to be formalized then all veterans (for we now have the badge to claim that title!), serving members of the armed forces, and honorary supporters from the general public can combine to represent the best interests of those who serve or have served. The existing Chain of Command of all three services seems quite incapable or unwilling to face up to this cynical government of those who have viewed the Armed Forces of this country with contempt for their entire political careers. Now they find they cannot manage without them and are tasking them, IMHO, to destruction. I understand that this situation was the raison d'etre of BAFF but, along with all the other service associations, we seem to have heard nothing from them. The opposition in parliament is a joke and unworthy of that title, so the only course left open is a long loud protest movement whose aim would be the build up of HM Forces to match the calls placed upon them, rather than this continual reduction.
In the meantime, our thoughts are with your son and all his colleagues who man the line on our behalf. May they all return safely to those who love them.

[barnstormer1968]

chugalug2

Well said. fully agreed and seconded here.
(sorry, but had a slight problem typing for a bit here, as the news is on Tv, and I had to listen to another sad account of British deaths (the three R.A.F. Regiment lads, and one from the R.T.R.) I salute you all, and may you rest in peace).
SARCASM MODE ON
All I will say to you chugalug, is don't be too hard on our newest government. They are after all, happily spending up to £5000 per day treating suspected/convicted terrorists under armed guard in private hospital rooms!
OH HANG ON, Maybe Gordon Browne hasn't realised he's on our side yet, perhaps he will get his act together when it dawns on him.
SARCASM MODE OFF

Back to seriousness, these regular British deaths are sickening me, and god knows how many more injured British heroes are being dumped in civilian hospitals on a weekly basis.
Sorry if I'm rambling, but this is a day where I've heard the MOD state that we have enough reserves to deal with any unexpected conflict, but at the same time we have no helicopters (apart from SAR) or troops to help out with the flooding in the UK today. Is it just me, or are they conflicting statements.

[Double Zero]

I think more sense has been said on this short thread ( and on the Ashtead planning disgrace ) than most governments of any flavour would consider decent...

Yes it does seem time for maybe a section of all the services websites to unite - I am not unpatriotic but am incensed at the way our people at the sharp end are treated once the job is done - that of course goes for the Ghurkas as much as anyone.

As I have stated elsewhere I am not ex or current military, though worked in UK military aircraft development - so presumably count as a keen civilian supporter, a rather large group of people as I suspect is about to be discovered by some - and politicians had better take note.

I, and I am absolutely sure the vast majority of the population agree totally with the above comment re. lottery allocations - if issues are too difficult for governments to work out, and somehow need what is effectively public money, I am damn sure we'd rather see it spent on projects like the one at Ashtead, and for that matter more not less A&AEE hospitals with helicopters to suit.

Isn't this the 21st century or are helo's ( apart from hard stretched SAR ) generally only available for election campaigns ?

I think we'd prefer looking after the people who've put their lives on the line for us & funding air ambulances & similar rather than supporting the poor souls who've gone through the pure hell of having to perform opera & ballet etc or even worse pay full ticket prices to endure it !!!

[Tigs2]

Chugalug2

Well said Sir! I concur with your comments, particularly Weevehearditb4 concerning your Son.

Double Zero

Don't forget the 200K the Lottery fund gave to the Guinea Pig farm in South America to research better ways of breeding them for eating?? Chance of 10K to help furnish the house at Ashtead - I don't think so

[Double Zero]

They funded Guinea Pigs to eat South Americans ? Well, there could be some merit in it, presumably a contribution to GWB's border campaign...

Or did the lottery think they were funding a current extension of the WW2 plastic surgery treatment of ' Guinea Pig ' combat casualties ?

No, I didn't think so - presumably those B of B pilots would have been treated on a nice out of sight island in the Orkneys and an official secret from estate agents, if this Ashtead lot's 'morals' had been applied...

Isn't it interesting to reflect how well those pilots were treated in that time, including being taken out to local dances by pretty women who made a point of it ?

[weevhearditb4]

dear all

Grateful for comments

took a different slant on this issue as i did not want to deviate from the SSAFA house subject.

Our forces in the middle east are now restricted on the postal packages fixed at 2Kg. The Iraq service personnel are not badly served unless on the Iranian borders or on desert patrols however Afghanistan is a different story when it comes to mail.

We were .06gm over the 2Kg limit and the PO point blank refused to accept it, so we have to hurry home buy yet another cardboard box repack with more goodies as it was pointless being underweight and then resend it.

So far its cost over £200 to send stuff out (and i suspect were not alone) and this is only month 2 of his tour. But my thoughts are with those families who cannot afford the luxury of dealing with calls for red cross parcels and the odd book etc.

What is very clear is that the PO is making money regarding our armed Forces in both war zones and that the RAF cannot cope with the mail system to put a limit on the packages.

What is needed and i hope Royal Anglians Mum (RAM) is viewing is to go back to the divisional System which indeed looked after its own, whereas now the ATR's just attempt to keep the numbers up and that's it.

We need to coordinate somehow with RAM and others in the serving units that need help with certain daily care packages so they go out in bulk from the RHQ's of those units.

This happened in the bad old days of Northern Ireland and it makes my blood boil that the so called daily (national) papers are not pushing on this.

The kit shortages are down to the penny pinching at the Mod and lack of proper procurement and still issuing kit that frankly is not fit for purpose anymore such as No2 uniforms...as ceremonial dress has gone pass its sell by date.

Keep it up lads and lassies eventually someone will take notice anyone up for a day outside the Mod?

[A2QFI]

MOD Spends/Wastes £39 million on 'Press Officers'

What a sh*te job they are doing! Where are they anyway?

http://tinyurl.com/2xjvy5

[Jimlad1]

I'm going to admit to working for MOD (and being a reservist here). I'm not going to defend a lot of what MOD does, but it does strike me that people here see the letters MOD and don't get what it is. Its a department run mainly by the military, with the CS in support positions. If you're being screwed then take a look at where the buck stops on the defence management board - unless you're a geek or a civil servant, then ultimately the decisions that affect you are made by senior military personnel. Likewise, commitments, int, procurement etc - all have military personnel in all the key places. The majority of MOD personnel work in dull admin jobs where they too are treated like ****e, mainly by their management but also by the forces personnel they support and try to do the best they can for you.

The problem is, as noted, that we're broke. Its not penny pinching for the sake of slicing the budget, its trying to balance several complex operations and vastly different requirements at the same time. The byzantine finance rules make it difficult to transfer funds from different TLBS at differerent times, hence where a lot of the problems come from. Rather than cut one thing outright, we see salami slicing across the board as its the only way to retain the capability. I know its easy at station or squadron level to blame "MOD", but give some thought to who you're actually blaming there!

Finally, I'd suggest the real enemy is the Treasury!

[Double Zero]

Ok, I know it's not down to individuals except high up - but we've all seen things like simple equipment trolleys going for the price of cars to the MOD etc etc, a case of the companies ripping off the country, and the MOD in the past at least accepted if not condoned it, while people at the pointy end get crap to carry out their job with, and treated as such afterwards...

So who exactly sanctioned these 'Press Officers' for £ 39 million ?

And on the basis that £39K per annum ( suspiciously matching figures ) for doing what apparently is sod all would be an improvement ( financially at least ) on the moderately useful civilian job I do now, how do I sign up ?!

I'd suggest these 'Press Officers', if they really want to make a positive impression, try to imitate the works of the American journalist in Iraq whose work was on here until recently ( I can't find it anyway ) - his photo's & prose were world class - as far as I know he's still freelance & not in the employ of any organisation, but he made the point very well indeed; then again he was putting himself in harms' way and not polishing his seat in an office.

[Chugalug2]

The problem is, as noted, that we're broke......ultimately the decisions that affect you are made by senior military personnel........Finally, I'd suggest the real enemy is the Treasury

Firstly Jimlad, full marks for entering the Lions Den! Everything you say of course is true. We have learned from tucumseh on other threads how this monster works, or rather doesn't. Of course it is starved of money by the Treasury, and the man behind that "prudence" is now PM. The government is responsible for the policy hatched in the MOD. That it is then implemented by the incumbents, be they military or civilian, is IMHO immaterial. They all serve a discredited, dysfunctional and disreputable system. That some of them (often senior officers as you say) put their own two pennyworth in by bullying and disciplining those who try to carry out their statutory duties despite the financial pressures is a comment on them in particular and the poor quality of command extant in the Armed Forces in general. This whole rotten mess will surely collapse with the kicking in of its front door (ack. AH), but that will not happen under this government, whose purposes it serves so well that it can be covered part time, nor by any future government in the foreseeable future. Hence my call for mass protest. The only people this wretched administration fears is the mob. I would hope that we could constitute such a mob.

[Double Zero]

Mob

I doubt many people here would want to be associated with any 'mob' - I don't.

If you mean a certain amount of collective voice from this and the other services websites involving services personnel & supporters, great, but mob is not what it's about, apart from the slang term for the RAF used by people who were in it, which doesn't seem to be your agenda...

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by weevhearditb4

Our forces in the middle east are now restricted on the postal packages fixed at 2Kg.

We were .06gm over the 2Kg limit and the PO point blank refused to accept it

We had a bulky parcel and were able to reduce the size of the wrapping by a simple expedient. We packed everything into a black bin liner, sucked all the air our using a vacuum cleaner and reduced the package size by 2/3rds - obviously not everthing will be shrunk that small. We then bound it with tape to retain the size and put the lot in a stout envelope similarly bound. Saved a good 4 oz.

[Chugalug2]

00, I was speaking, or rather writing, ironically (and obviously not very well!). In plain English the MOD structure and modus operandi is to my mind in need of root and branch reform. For what it is worth I think the same true of the command structure of the RAF itself. Neither of those urgent necessities can be achieved by those outside government, but a protest against the continual running down of the Armed Forces to below critical level can be. If you object to my use of the word mob, how about "an association of the like minded who serve, or have served, or have not, and are united by the power of the Internet". Fair rolls off the tongue, doesn't it? I still prefer "mob", as you say it has honourable connotations here, but take your pick.

[Double Zero]

I suggest someone comes up with a suitable name, and a joint services / supporters website on the lines we both gravitate towards, is arranged by
someone who has the time & talent !

I have organised a few websites, some professionally, but I admit I'm too busy and probably too unskilled to organise that.

Services, Helpers, Information Team ? Hang on, might need a rethink on that one...

Seriously though, the basis of a good idea if kept within spirit.

[weevhearditb4]

dear all

I did not think it could get worse but it has...has any one heard about the current situation and the use of the Osprey body armour i have heard that when anyone wears this in Iraq they then get so much money for putting it on, a sum of 80p has been mentioned.

We have not had mail or phone contact with our son for some time due to operational reasons but he did mention something about this, surely this is not happening.

On other matters i also hear and again not substantiated so it would be useful if anyone could squash it...that the Service Personnel and the Veterans Agency is really stretched and also they have been ordered to asses claims Old and new rigorously.

If both are correct god help our returning soldiers of which our son has a damaged knee and cannot be taken out of theater to repair it. Those that are attending the SSAFA house issue at Mole Valley are in for some real eye opening stuff.

Angry (ex Army) dad and getting more angry by the minute.

[Two's in]

Although the state of what laughingly passes for Government management and oversight is undoubtedly at a very low ebb, we've all been here before. Various cost saving measures, restructuring and moratoriums over the years have had an equally debilitating effect (training, aviation fuel, boots, clothing and ammunition spring to mind) on the overall effectiveness of HM Forces.

The difference today is that while those earlier measures were recognized as short term corrections and realignements, there is no end in sight for today's slash and burn policy with the Military capability. So there is no short term pain for long term gain, instead it is just a constant drip by drip erosion of the quality of life for HM Forces.

That in itself would cause a severe drop on morale and incentive, but now add in the constant cycle of operations, the lack or shortage of minimum life saving equipment and measures (inert aircraft fuel tanks, body armor, battlefield helicopters) due to Government ineptitude, lack of widespread public support or even awareness for the Military mission (but luckily not for the Servicemen and women executing that mission) and finally, the tragic and incessant sacrifice made by HM Forces; and suddenly this is a very different crisis of confidence in the Military to those that have occured previously.

The constant throughput of personnel gives HM Forces a relatively short term corporate memory, as reflected in the constant reinvention of old ideas witnessed by anyone who has been around for 20 years or more. The Government mandarins exploit this characterisitc to the full by relying on the "crisis of the day" to disappear with the people who endured it eventually leaving, and the new blood not knowing any better. Now we are into the 5th year of intense operations (not including the Balkans prior to that), that assumption is no longer valid. Personnel are seeing the same mistakes and short-term thinking being repeated again and again, while they themselves have not left the forces. Recruiting is more difficult, and people have a better sense of just how poorly managed the MOD is.

Military resolve and initiative will always get the job done, but that facet of the forces actually masks the grave ineptitude at higher levels. The frantic Op Tempo has finally revealed Government and MoD strategy to be nothing but a hollow shell of self-serving avarice by all concerned. The only price that has to be paid for this level of incompetence is the morale, effectiveness, and life expectency of every serving member of the Forces.

[Compressorstall]

Guys

People are talking about the lottery to prop up the Armed Forces, but it was supposed to be there to support the arts and community. We are an instrument of Government Policy, but the problem is that we are a fairly silent instrument. We sometimes get attention such as the campaign that The Sun claimed it ran to get us the 'massive' tax free allowance for getting shot at, but in the main we are used as required and every so often we are thrown some money to make it seem like we're acknowledged.
Some sensible words are spoken here too. The MOD should direct things, but they are often too busy trying to enact the rapid and often conflicting changes that are required to fit in with this week's policy. How many times did Gordon Brown mention 'change' when he took over as PM? They are also trying to fight a war whilst remaining on a peacetime footing. What really matters is good clear leadership and personnel (both civil servants and military personnel) who feel valued, that they are being invested in and that their lives are safeguarded too. Also their families should not be ignored - we can only do our jobs with the continued support of our families, so they need to feel valued and know that their loved ones are being protected and supported.
This must be my Sunday rant, but Mr Brown would like to show his strong values, perhaps his moral compass should be pointing him in the direction of caring for his Armed Forces personnel - making sure that they have accommodation with overhead protection in one sandy location rather than relying on luck (according to today's Sunday Times), making sure that the equipment is there to do their jobs, empowering commanders, removing red tape, paying people commensurate with the job they do and the time spent on ops and by simply standing up and saying that if he sends us in harm's way, he will be there to support us. Leave you can actually take and affordable house prices would be good too!
Don't get me wrong - this is a great job and we work with some truly great people who have admirable qualities, but moral and physical investment is needed now with a long-term plan, not the finger in the dyke approach which is being used all the time, unless he can find a way to UOR morale.

Rant over - I'm off to mow my lawn.

[Melchett01]

Realise it's not good form to cut & paste your own threads, but I originally posted this in the PVR thread; having only just read this thread (I can only take so much bad news in one day!), it seemed a more appropriate location:

Quote:
When AVM Loader visited recently his pep talk, (allegedly), to troops in Basra was that being in RAF these days was like being on the *train to glasgow. Its a bit rough and if they dont like it they can just get off the train!

Yet another infantile comment from an Air ranking ************** (fill in own descriptor - I refuse to use the word officer to descirbe someone who has all the leadership abilities of David Brent) should know better. Try coming down to JHC and saying that - see how far you get. That is exactly why we are in the state we are in at the moment - politicized yes-men. Well AVM Loader, what if we don't mind the trainride so much but don't trust the driver ??? If the ride is a bit rough, then I would put that down to the agricultural handling of a precision implement by a numpty! That was originally a comment on my flying abilities from one of my UAS instructors - despite having left the RAF 10 years ago, he seems to have been prescient in his assessment of the abilities of the AVM Loaders of this world and those around him.

"I asked myself if all were well today with the health of the Services, was the Royal Air Force in a position to discharge its responsibilities in the event of an emergency, and what were the things which really counted and contributed to Air Force efficiency and fighting quality. Straightening my thoughts, I turned to morale. Morale is a state of mind. It is one of those intangible things which cannot be measured ...... It is more like electricity, which everyone knows exists but few can explain clearly. All you see is the manifestation of its effect. Morale is the great force influencing the minds of men, which helps them to rise to heights of achievement beyond the grasp of normal beings. It is the steadying factor in the crisis of battle, and makes men give their all without counting the cost or expecting any return. It is, in fact, the most important single weapon in the armoury of a fighting service. Unfortunately morale is never static and cannot be just built up and kept in cold storage until the day it is wanted. It is a force extremely suscpetible to outside influence and must therefore be watched, carfully guarded and constantly sustained. Above all else, it must be built on durable foundations if it is to withstand the shock of war........

It may appear to be high, but if it is not built on solid foundations it will not survive real strain. And so I asked myself this question: Is the standard of leadership throughout the Royal Air Force satisfactory, or are there men in positions of authority who lack first hand practical knowldege of jet aviation or experience of operational flying in the last war."

That was written by ACM Sir Basil Embry GCB KBE DSO*** DFC AFC after he left (was retired from) the RAF in the 1950s. Sounds like he had more of an idea than Loader ever has, had or is likely to have. Notice there is nothing in here about the 'just in time' supply philosophy about morale that are current 'leaders' seem to think morale is linked to. Also implicit in Embry's comments are the suggestion that in the Armed Forces of 2007 the politicians, management consultants, bean counters and war dodging senior and air officers with nothing more than a QGJM are in positions of authority that they should probably not be in, and are arguably there not because they are proven war fighters but because they are arse kissers and yes men.

So is the RAF (or Army & RN) of Jul 2007 in a position to discharge its responsibilities ??? Somehow I doubt it - certainly not in the way they were intended to. Morale is being whittled away bit by bit and I certainly do not know of anyone whose morale is so high that they would to paraphrase Sir Basil give their all and expect nothing in return. Int Or Wot hit made a very valid point in another thread - numbers are not everything, experience counts for a huge amount. Are we soon to get to a similar state to that the German military was in in 1945, sending old men and young boys off to war because the experienced fighters had been captured or killed? For captured and killed, read experience warfighers PVRing / not signing on due to morale being non-existant and actually wanting to be treated fairly by an organisation that one day (possibly sooner rather than later) will expect them to put their lives on the line for nothing in return other than spin, lies and deceit of the 'leadership'.

Loader et al, I sugget you read Sir Basil's book - you might just learn something. Lions lead by donkeys ..... an insult to donkeys!