It doesn't get much better than this
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Of course I realise I'm there to support them. You think I don't know that? Every day we put ourselves into harm's way too. Of course it's not quite the same as the boys putting boots on the ground. Everyone takes risks in their own way.
I'll let go now
I'll let go now
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Jeez Soprano, I didn't realise the lads were spending 6 months of every year in Iraq/Afghanistan.
So they decided that there would be only one gang colour allowed and it was the US Armed Forces gang.
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Now if only a few more brown folk could get that simple message then more would be humbled like soprano 
Edited to add quite a few in the AT world should hoist those facts on board as well as there is no doubt that the SH and AAC world have a very ****ty stick to hold onto at this time
Edited to add quite a few in the AT world should hoist those facts on board as well as there is no doubt that the SH and AAC world have a very ****ty stick to hold onto at this time
AA - nice grenade, well tossed!
Have to say I agree. This has absolutely nothing to do with with 'being on ops' 'attached to Land' 'being in a war zone' or any other crappy staff-officer speak Div cares to dress it up as. This is all to do with personalities (or lack of) on ego trips, making up pointles rules and regs to justify their existance in an organisation that has always done a great job of making you wonder just who the enemy really is.
And why do I say that? Camp Bastion, summer 06 - in the midst of not firing a single shot with the 3 Para BG, guys out on combat ops every day. Dress regs on camp, shorts, t-shirts, sandals and weapons. The only rule, no open toed footwear or sweaty sports kit in the cookhouse, and stick a shirt on when someone important comes round. And that was with 3 Para BG. No doubt, many of those who object to people wearing civies, sports kit, non-uniform etc at BAS because it's unmilitary would have had a heart attack at Bastion.
Now if you would like to take your argument about being unmilitary in Camp, pop it down in writing and send it to CO 3 Para, not sure if it is still Col Stuart, and tell him that you think his guys were an unmilitary shower and not effective just because they happened to wander round Camp in shorts and t-shirts, please be my guest. I can guess what the response will be and I wouldn't like to be around when you have a chat with him.
What was the old saying - no combat unit has ever passed inspection. Try telling that to the divs in Div. It's Basrah not bloody Horseguards Parade. Now get a life, get a grip of it and get on with what you are actually there for. And breathe.
Have to say I agree. This has absolutely nothing to do with with 'being on ops' 'attached to Land' 'being in a war zone' or any other crappy staff-officer speak Div cares to dress it up as. This is all to do with personalities (or lack of) on ego trips, making up pointles rules and regs to justify their existance in an organisation that has always done a great job of making you wonder just who the enemy really is.
And why do I say that? Camp Bastion, summer 06 - in the midst of not firing a single shot with the 3 Para BG, guys out on combat ops every day. Dress regs on camp, shorts, t-shirts, sandals and weapons. The only rule, no open toed footwear or sweaty sports kit in the cookhouse, and stick a shirt on when someone important comes round. And that was with 3 Para BG. No doubt, many of those who object to people wearing civies, sports kit, non-uniform etc at BAS because it's unmilitary would have had a heart attack at Bastion.
Now if you would like to take your argument about being unmilitary in Camp, pop it down in writing and send it to CO 3 Para, not sure if it is still Col Stuart, and tell him that you think his guys were an unmilitary shower and not effective just because they happened to wander round Camp in shorts and t-shirts, please be my guest. I can guess what the response will be and I wouldn't like to be around when you have a chat with him.
What was the old saying - no combat unit has ever passed inspection. Try telling that to the divs in Div. It's Basrah not bloody Horseguards Parade. Now get a life, get a grip of it and get on with what you are actually there for. And breathe.
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Gents/Ladies apologies if I offended and got my facts wrong about length of tours. I do know that some of you are out there year in year out and will be for the foreseeable future. BTW I thought we were all purple now!!!
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Ah but Melchett, having also got amongst it with 3 Para I think it's fair to say, even when dressed to relax they still managed to look suitably military, sticking to unofficial Regt t-shirts with black/dark coloured running shorts or similar.
What you did not see at Bastion was the shell-suited Ing-urrrrrr-land topped yoof shuffling round Kandahar with his hair full of "product" on his way to a beer call with a weapon safely wrapped up in a bin bag, and I have absolutely no doubt it is this latter species who have to be ruled over at the expense of those who can wind down without upsetting those who admittedly do take great delight in enforcing trivia. Which brings me on to annuver fing...
Nothing delights the would be RSM/SWO types more than hearing a load of whinging in response to their latest scheme. I find it far more effective to just adhere to their silly rules without saying a word, thus implying their hollow rantings have no significant impact whatsoever. As soon as they know they've got to you they've won. Better to leave them guessing.
What you did not see at Bastion was the shell-suited Ing-urrrrrr-land topped yoof shuffling round Kandahar with his hair full of "product" on his way to a beer call with a weapon safely wrapped up in a bin bag, and I have absolutely no doubt it is this latter species who have to be ruled over at the expense of those who can wind down without upsetting those who admittedly do take great delight in enforcing trivia. Which brings me on to annuver fing...
Nothing delights the would be RSM/SWO types more than hearing a load of whinging in response to their latest scheme. I find it far more effective to just adhere to their silly rules without saying a word, thus implying their hollow rantings have no significant impact whatsoever. As soon as they know they've got to you they've won. Better to leave them guessing.
TR - I will concede the point about the ingggguuuuuuuurland t-shirts etc. I mean how embarrassing, being caught wearing a polyster t-shirt 
I do like where you're going with the whole psyops thing against the RSM/SWO But from what I'm hearing back from BAS, don't you think Bastion was actually well run and quite grown up i.e. no pointless rules, but when we do make rules they are there for a reason and you are to adhere to them.
That is much more palatable and is a line of reasoning that would probably find favour in BAS - and be adhered to. Instead they have the current regime of childish tantrums seemingly coming out of Div every other day that people spend all their time ignoring. Would be a much more productive use of everyone's time and energy
I do like where you're going with the whole psyops thing against the RSM/SWO
But from what I'm hearing back from BAS, don't you think Bastion was actually well run and quite grown up i.e. no pointless rules, but when we do make rules they are there for a reason and you are to adhere to them.That is much more palatable and is a line of reasoning that would probably find favour in BAS - and be adhered to. Instead they have the current regime of childish tantrums seemingly coming out of Div every other day that people spend all their time ignoring. Would be a much more productive use of everyone's time and energy
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don't you think Bastion was actually well run and quite grown up i.e. no pointless rules
Thing is, last time I was there there were no pointless rules because there were no pointless people filling pointless posts where they inevitably got bored and went on the prowl for a non-existant problem to which they could then apply some "leadership" in the hope of getting promoted.
Then there was KAF.....
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TR
So you agree that it is entirely possible to look decent while wearing civvies on ops? Glad to hear it. In no way did I suggest that England shirts and shell-suits should be de rigeur in any of my posts - a sensible approach is all that I want, not the lazy disciplinarian approach we seem to have now.
That's the talk of the religious zealot 
Compresorstall
Feeling bad that others are relaxing while you go on ops? How childish (not a personal dig at you, btw). How about worrying about what you have to do first and then enjoying the relaxation you'll be getting when you get back? How about using such things as a motivator for your lads instead?
Melchett - Well said
So you agree that it is entirely possible to look decent while wearing civvies on ops? Glad to hear it. In no way did I suggest that England shirts and shell-suits should be de rigeur in any of my posts - a sensible approach is all that I want, not the lazy disciplinarian approach we seem to have now.
If you cannot accept the fcukin' obvious answer to your question, don't bother asking the question in the first place.
Compresorstall
Feeling bad that others are relaxing while you go on ops? How childish (not a personal dig at you, btw). How about worrying about what you have to do first and then enjoying the relaxation you'll be getting when you get back? How about using such things as a motivator for your lads instead?
Melchett - Well said
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I must admit I found all the lads at BAS who got dolled up to pop to the NAAFI a little strange. Who were they doing it for?
BAS is the land of pointlessly petty rules though. A lad who worked for me out in BAS got pulled up for wearing a t-shirt rather than a DCC shirt when he had to move a J-Cab from beside JHC HQ (where wearing of t-shirts was allowed) to the pan via the road. Apparently he had fallen foul of the rules because if you drive on the road you have to be wearing full DCC and head dress within your vehicle, no matter how short your journey.
BAS is the land of pointlessly petty rules though. A lad who worked for me out in BAS got pulled up for wearing a t-shirt rather than a DCC shirt when he had to move a J-Cab from beside JHC HQ (where wearing of t-shirts was allowed) to the pan via the road. Apparently he had fallen foul of the rules because if you drive on the road you have to be wearing full DCC and head dress within your vehicle, no matter how short your journey.
So what do we do then, we relax the rules and allow everyone to wear what they like. Then the piercings go in, then the drinking gets a little bit excessive, but, not to worry, they are just relaxing, dear things, leave them alone, the ops is stressful enough as it is. The the bullying starts, "oh leave them alone they are just letting off steam"....its a stressful op. Then the beatings of civilians start and pictures are taken of them in leashes and behaving like dogs.
This is why there are military rules....to keep order, once you let one rule slip, you are on the slippery slope. The UK armed forces have learnt this from over 1000 years of experience. You are not in the Scouts, you are part of Her Majesty's Armed Forces on OPERATIONS.
Royal Flying Club...............Civvies in uniform! There.......I've said it!
This is why there are military rules....to keep order, once you let one rule slip, you are on the slippery slope. The UK armed forces have learnt this from over 1000 years of experience. You are not in the Scouts, you are part of Her Majesty's Armed Forces on OPERATIONS.
Royal Flying Club...............Civvies in uniform! There.......I've said it!
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Don't be so obtuse 'Widger'.
Wearing piercings is against the book in the UK so should realistically be expected to be vertbooten in an operational theatre too.
Wearing a t-shirt instead of a DCC shirt because outside the tempreture is in the 40's and you have to drive a J-Cab which has been sat in the sun all day and hence is like a mobile oven is quite another issue.
Wearing t-shirts won't I believe bring about the fall of civilisation, nor should it be considered a henious crime when surely niff naff and trival and 'what not to wear' should be left at Brize Norton, with the actual task of projecting air power to support operations in Iraq/Afganistan being the over-riding concern.
As I said earlier in this thread though, the practicalities of taking 'gucci' civvies out to an operational theatre should be the point that is pushed home, not the actual wearing of them. When I was out at BAS last lads for 2 Sqn were pulled up about wasting bottled water on washing their 'trapping kit' as they were not happy about their pretty things being boil washed by the dhobi gang.
Wearing piercings is against the book in the UK so should realistically be expected to be vertbooten in an operational theatre too.
Wearing a t-shirt instead of a DCC shirt because outside the tempreture is in the 40's and you have to drive a J-Cab which has been sat in the sun all day and hence is like a mobile oven is quite another issue.
Wearing t-shirts won't I believe bring about the fall of civilisation, nor should it be considered a henious crime when surely niff naff and trival and 'what not to wear' should be left at Brize Norton, with the actual task of projecting air power to support operations in Iraq/Afganistan being the over-riding concern.
As I said earlier in this thread though, the practicalities of taking 'gucci' civvies out to an operational theatre should be the point that is pushed home, not the actual wearing of them. When I was out at BAS last lads for 2 Sqn were pulled up about wasting bottled water on washing their 'trapping kit' as they were not happy about their pretty things being boil washed by the dhobi gang.
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Widger
Sorry, rubbish. This is not a matter of two extremes - you simply apply sensible rules and enforce them. Most people in the military are on the conservative side of moderate, and it is them we should be catering for. Slippery slope arguments fall foul of the fact that you are merely arguing about the fear of things getting worse, not that they are actually worse. When some people do take to extremes then you apply individual discipline, like I have said, not the lazy discipline of tightening things up for everyone preemptively.
Your nonsense about "military rules" is just that - nonsense. Like I've already suggested, a reading of Norman Dixon's "On the Psychology of Military Incompetence" should be attempted - it uses many, many examples from the 1000 years of British military history to which you refer, and shows that we actually learn bugger all and make the same mistakes time and time again, just as we are doing now.
I fail to see where your snipe at the RAF is relevant here, but maybe it's just because I don't take such things personally.
Sorry, rubbish. This is not a matter of two extremes - you simply apply sensible rules and enforce them. Most people in the military are on the conservative side of moderate, and it is them we should be catering for. Slippery slope arguments fall foul of the fact that you are merely arguing about the fear of things getting worse, not that they are actually worse. When some people do take to extremes then you apply individual discipline, like I have said, not the lazy discipline of tightening things up for everyone preemptively.
Your nonsense about "military rules" is just that - nonsense. Like I've already suggested, a reading of Norman Dixon's "On the Psychology of Military Incompetence" should be attempted - it uses many, many examples from the 1000 years of British military history to which you refer, and shows that we actually learn bugger all and make the same mistakes time and time again, just as we are doing now.
I fail to see where your snipe at the RAF is relevant here, but maybe it's just because I don't take such things personally.
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Widger
I also assume,then, that you are against the wearing of jeans or other such casual items in the Sgts' and Officers' Messes? God forbid our people should be allowed to relax at home.
If a clear set of guidleines as to what was acceptable in terms of civvy attire whilst deployed was published, it would be easier to take action against those transgressing said rules. Just like dress regs in said messes. Conform or accept the punishment. After all, the population of the Sgts' Mess is formed of the previously England-shirted junior ranks.
If you treat people like children, that is exactly how they behave. When personnel are not "putting rounds down the range" or "transporting people to put rounds down the range", where's the harm in wearing civvies and relaxing a bit. Certainly the Army personnel at BAS I saw were quite happy to get into civvies given the chance. Oh no, my mistake, they can't have been Army or Navy, because it's only the RAF that show such a distinct lack of standards. You're not one of those chiselling SO2s in Div are you?
I also assume,then, that you are against the wearing of jeans or other such casual items in the Sgts' and Officers' Messes? God forbid our people should be allowed to relax at home.
If a clear set of guidleines as to what was acceptable in terms of civvy attire whilst deployed was published, it would be easier to take action against those transgressing said rules. Just like dress regs in said messes. Conform or accept the punishment. After all, the population of the Sgts' Mess is formed of the previously England-shirted junior ranks.
If you treat people like children, that is exactly how they behave. When personnel are not "putting rounds down the range" or "transporting people to put rounds down the range", where's the harm in wearing civvies and relaxing a bit. Certainly the Army personnel at BAS I saw were quite happy to get into civvies given the chance. Oh no, my mistake, they can't have been Army or Navy, because it's only the RAF that show such a distinct lack of standards. You're not one of those chiselling SO2s in Div are you?
PTT,
I suggest rather than reading Mr Dixon's book, you would be better served by reading Queen's Regulations for the RAF and the associated publications. If you are an Officer or WO, I would also suggest that you take a trip into your toilet and take the time to read the words on your commissioning scroll as well.
I am not against wearing of relaxed attire in any mess. That is not what this is about. This is about some idiots getting upset about not being able to prance around a base in civilian t-shirts, shorts jeans etc, with body armour slung over their shoulders and living it up, inside a base which is subject to regular mortar fire, in danger of attack 24/7, inside a country where there is effectively a low scale WAR going on.
Please, for crying out load, get a grip of yourselves and a sense of perspective here. This is not RAFG or Odious or ISK. This is a front line camp where there is no place for civvies except when you get the chance to fly out on R&R.
Your comments make you a laughing stock! I bet on ARRSE they are having a great joke at your expense and as I said before, you are just re-inforcing all the stereotypes of a part-time, civvies in uniform service, more interested in getting to the Hotel, than in achieving the task. The RAF has spent years and a great deal of effort, through the hard work of many, to show it is a modern force equipped to deploy anywhere in the world and to fight and win. This issue justs puts all that effort back years.
Just do as you are flamin told and obey the lawful order!
I suggest rather than reading Mr Dixon's book, you would be better served by reading Queen's Regulations for the RAF and the associated publications. If you are an Officer or WO, I would also suggest that you take a trip into your toilet and take the time to read the words on your commissioning scroll as well.
I am not against wearing of relaxed attire in any mess. That is not what this is about. This is about some idiots getting upset about not being able to prance around a base in civilian t-shirts, shorts jeans etc, with body armour slung over their shoulders and living it up, inside a base which is subject to regular mortar fire, in danger of attack 24/7, inside a country where there is effectively a low scale WAR going on.
Please, for crying out load, get a grip of yourselves and a sense of perspective here. This is not RAFG or Odious or ISK. This is a front line camp where there is no place for civvies except when you get the chance to fly out on R&R.
Your comments make you a laughing stock! I bet on ARRSE they are having a great joke at your expense and as I said before, you are just re-inforcing all the stereotypes of a part-time, civvies in uniform service, more interested in getting to the Hotel, than in achieving the task. The RAF has spent years and a great deal of effort, through the hard work of many, to show it is a modern force equipped to deploy anywhere in the world and to fight and win. This issue justs puts all that effort back years.
Just do as you are flamin told and obey the lawful order!
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Good spot Widger, spot on. We are indeed civvies in uniform. We all are be the uniform green, blue, brown, sandy or purple. We live in a western democratic society with free-elections and a civilan police force. We are not in a uniformed autocratic society under marshal law.
We recruit civilian volunteers, we train them in military affairs, and we retire them to civilian life. Indeed those that might become militarily institutionalised often have difficulty in returning to their civilian rootes - witness the stereotypical Major in Fawlty Towers and not just the homeless ex-serviceman..
We recruit civilian volunteers, we train them in military affairs, and we retire them to civilian life. Indeed those that might become militarily institutionalised often have difficulty in returning to their civilian rootes - witness the stereotypical Major in Fawlty Towers and not just the homeless ex-serviceman..