Red Arrows-Cosford TRA Infingements
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I was also at Cosford on the day, and was a tad annoyed by the two infringements for obvious reasons. However, may I bring up the point that conditions on the day were extremely hazy, and flying into the sun would have been most unpleasant. Therefore it is quite possible that either (or both) pilots were simply disorientated/lost, and quite aware of the NOTAM in effect. I would have never flown in those conditions in my PA28, nevermind radioless/ nav-aid-less. Surely a bit of patience could be in order until the full investigation is complete. Of course flying on the day in that vis was bad planning itself, however getting lost does happen. But not checking the local NOTAM's really is unforgiveable, especially to all those at Cosford and the effort that the Reds made to fly so well on the day.
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I was working Birmingham radar on Sunday and have to say that every pilot that called me out in the FIR in the vicinity of Cosford was well aware of the RA(T) in force that day
A few points that may have been overlooked here:
1. The notamed RA(T) for the display at cosford was 5nm radius up to 5000ft and for the red arrows display 6nm radius and up to 8300ft.
2. The Red Arrows display was late and the new times were not subject to a notam (despite Birmingham asking if it was going to be notamed.)
3. On at least one occasion the Red Arrows were outside the RA(T) (7nm)
I don't know where these guys tthat "allegedly" infringed the RA(T) were flying exactly in relation to the RA(T) but if they were outside 5nm but inside 6nm or above 5000ft during the reds display then they had every right to be there as the RA(T) for the reds had expired and was not subject to a new notam.
A few points that may have been overlooked here:
1. The notamed RA(T) for the display at cosford was 5nm radius up to 5000ft and for the red arrows display 6nm radius and up to 8300ft.
2. The Red Arrows display was late and the new times were not subject to a notam (despite Birmingham asking if it was going to be notamed.)
3. On at least one occasion the Red Arrows were outside the RA(T) (7nm)
I don't know where these guys tthat "allegedly" infringed the RA(T) were flying exactly in relation to the RA(T) but if they were outside 5nm but inside 6nm or above 5000ft during the reds display then they had every right to be there as the RA(T) for the reds had expired and was not subject to a new notam.
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radar707
Your point 2 was what I was alluding to earlier. Perhaps the consumate pros should stick to their timings a bit better.
Wingeing chimp and other tw@ts who have gone early on the personal abuse.
The idea that they never introduce themselves as "Red ....." is imbecilic.
There is a reason that they are so unpopular with military pilots, and it is their attitude to others, not their flying.
You don't see anyone giving abuse to the chinook pilot (now that is a display), and he has a real job as well.
Your point 2 was what I was alluding to earlier. Perhaps the consumate pros should stick to their timings a bit better.
Wingeing chimp and other tw@ts who have gone early on the personal abuse.
The idea that they never introduce themselves as "Red ....." is imbecilic.
There is a reason that they are so unpopular with military pilots, and it is their attitude to others, not their flying.
You don't see anyone giving abuse to the chinook pilot (now that is a display), and he has a real job as well.
Cool Mod
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I was particularly interested to see this from JH.
That, I feel, is indicative of the professional way the Reds work. You can bet it is not in JH's 'job description.' But it is certainly the responsibility of any pilot to KNOW that a NOTAM exists for ANY function that requires one.
What if?.......................................has many questions - and terrible possible answers!
Prior to each display, we contact all of the local airfields to our display site reminding them of the restrictions; also display organisers are also very pro-active in highlighting any restrictions to other local airspace users.
What if?.......................................has many questions - and terrible possible answers!
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Tourist,
My previous post has obviously upset you somewhat, and if it has then I apologise, but you need to takle a close look at what you are saying..............'There is a reason that they are so unpopular with military pilots' what an absurdly stupid thing to write. The fact is that they are NOT unpopular with Military pilots at all. I am ex military, and still a pilot, but they are not unpopular with me or anyone I know. I would agree that there are a lot of pilots, mil and civvie, who are extremely envious of them and the lifestyle they lead, but they are not unpopular amongt us.
As I have said, I know them all professionally and socially and you are wrong about them. Clearly you are upset and have some personal problem with the Red Arrows - maybe you failed the selection for them? maybe you're not even a pilot yourself? Maybe you're not even in the Air Force and just want to look silly? either way, take some pills, have a lie down and try to get over it, there's a good chap.
TSM
My previous post has obviously upset you somewhat, and if it has then I apologise, but you need to takle a close look at what you are saying..............'There is a reason that they are so unpopular with military pilots' what an absurdly stupid thing to write. The fact is that they are NOT unpopular with Military pilots at all. I am ex military, and still a pilot, but they are not unpopular with me or anyone I know. I would agree that there are a lot of pilots, mil and civvie, who are extremely envious of them and the lifestyle they lead, but they are not unpopular amongt us.
As I have said, I know them all professionally and socially and you are wrong about them. Clearly you are upset and have some personal problem with the Red Arrows - maybe you failed the selection for them? maybe you're not even a pilot yourself? Maybe you're not even in the Air Force and just want to look silly? either way, take some pills, have a lie down and try to get over it, there's a good chap.
TSM
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"Reds" attitude
I worked in a FJ simulator for a number of years and saw several pilots go from a front line squadron, to the Reds for 3 years and back to a squadron via a refresher course. In no case did I see any signs of inflated ego, changed attitude or anything that made them different from the people they had been before their 3 years away.
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A2QFI
That pretty much says it all, well done.
Tourist, listen to people in the know, not idle speculation from a few who (like me) probably wern't good enough to make the grade for the Reds!
TSM
That pretty much says it all, well done.
Tourist, listen to people in the know, not idle speculation from a few who (like me) probably wern't good enough to make the grade for the Reds!
TSM
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Correct TSM, I am not in the Air Farce.
I am however a military pilot, and have come across them at various times at various airshows displaying or static in various aircraft/helicopters.
Jealous? Well I must admit I would like a free Breitling, but hawks are not really my area of expertise, and I like to enjoy the airshow party.
I have never suggested their flying was anything but exemplary, even if not to my taste, and how do you compare different teams flying skills, when flying different displays in different aircraft?
Whilst there are many on the other thread who think they are fantastic/walk on water/heal the sick etc (about 9 suspiciously.......), there are certainly enough to suggest that the epithet "liar" was a bit strong.
I am however a military pilot, and have come across them at various times at various airshows displaying or static in various aircraft/helicopters.
Jealous? Well I must admit I would like a free Breitling, but hawks are not really my area of expertise, and I like to enjoy the airshow party.
I have never suggested their flying was anything but exemplary, even if not to my taste, and how do you compare different teams flying skills, when flying different displays in different aircraft?
Whilst there are many on the other thread who think they are fantastic/walk on water/heal the sick etc (about 9 suspiciously.......), there are certainly enough to suggest that the epithet "liar" was a bit strong.
Simply put guys, it depends upon the characters on the team at the time. I've heard a couple of Sparrows years ago introduce themselves in the bar as Red whatever and generally speaking said individual was looked on as what he was, a prat.
A lot of the guys now are, I'm sure, completely normal FJ mates ( except the Harrier guys, F3 girls and GR4 types obviously).
Sorry, forgot for a minute that now we've got rid of the Jag I have to find nice things to say about the rest of the FJ fleet!
Whatever some of them might have done in the past (and I'm sure I've related before some Sparrows buffoonery) the team are always second to none. Having said that, I always prefer to watch the Tricolori because they're entertaining but un-predictable. You always know that the Sparrows are going to be perfect-ish....
A lot of the guys now are, I'm sure, completely normal FJ mates ( except the Harrier guys, F3 girls and GR4 types obviously).
Sorry, forgot for a minute that now we've got rid of the Jag I have to find nice things to say about the rest of the FJ fleet!
Whatever some of them might have done in the past (and I'm sure I've related before some Sparrows buffoonery) the team are always second to none. Having said that, I always prefer to watch the Tricolori because they're entertaining but un-predictable. You always know that the Sparrows are going to be perfect-ish....
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As I mentioned in another thread (which disappeared) So what if they introduce themselves as Red--. I'd just give them my callsign
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What did happen to the other thread? Did Tourist delete it because it was too pro-Reds?
The Reds and Blues don't get 'free' anything (let alone watches in the Breitling range) - any Auditors would go apes**t. Brietling offer their range to RAFAT (as they do to any squadron) at RAF-supply cost price and if the crew want to buy them, then so be it - it's a private purchase.
And, yes I know the UK Marketing Manager for Breitling and know the score, so I think the insinuations about freebies are a little unnecessary and not helpful.
And no, I am not a Red-dite through the middle - I admire all professional flying - but do think RAFAT represent the best there is. However, I've also met the Blue Eagles team on various occasions, and George Bacon has got to be one of the most charismatic and likeable pilots that I have ever met in my entire life - I could happily spend an evening in the bar talking to him, and his presentation at last year's PDS was absolutely top banana.
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I saw it happen
The near miss with the microlight happened right above where I live on the outskirts of Pattingham. It was a flexwing microlight flying from the South West towards the North East. It was no where near nor coming from the Shifnal airfield.
I have my own ideas as to where it had come from and was going to as we regularly get microlights flying over us. If I draw a straight line from the 2 airfields I'm thinking of it works out right above us.
When I live is well with the 6 mile zone as the red arrows have flown above us every year they have been at Cosford.
I'm not sure exactly what height the Arrows were but I have a photo from our garden that shows a similar fly past of our property (without the microlight) a few minutes after the incident. On the near miss they were closer and lower than that picture. By the time I had run indoors to get my camera the microlight had disappeared over woods behind me. As a new member I dont appear to be able to post attachment here though. (I can send to another member to post if anyone wants to see it.)
The idiot was clearly struggling to maintain control of his plane aftewards as he was encountering turbulance.
It could have been very nasty and I fully support the decision to abandon their display.
I have my own ideas as to where it had come from and was going to as we regularly get microlights flying over us. If I draw a straight line from the 2 airfields I'm thinking of it works out right above us.
When I live is well with the 6 mile zone as the red arrows have flown above us every year they have been at Cosford.
I'm not sure exactly what height the Arrows were but I have a photo from our garden that shows a similar fly past of our property (without the microlight) a few minutes after the incident. On the near miss they were closer and lower than that picture. By the time I had run indoors to get my camera the microlight had disappeared over woods behind me. As a new member I dont appear to be able to post attachment here though. (I can send to another member to post if anyone wants to see it.)
The idiot was clearly struggling to maintain control of his plane aftewards as he was encountering turbulance.
It could have been very nasty and I fully support the decision to abandon their display.
Last edited by kar999; 14th Jun 2007 at 13:34.
Red On, Green On
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Kar999 - no-one can post attachments - you need to upload the image to a picture hosting site such as Photobucket, and then link the image to here.
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Just out of interest… how are pilots selected to join the team?
Are they taken from recently trained pilots? Or from experienced pilots on operational squadrons?
craig
Are they taken from recently trained pilots? Or from experienced pilots on operational squadrons?
craig
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Craig, the latter. However I believe some newly trained pilots are still 'creamed' off to become instructors. Don't know if that is the case but they were known as 'creamed-off QFIs.'
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Funny old thing, a bit of thread creep here! The original was regarding an infringement of a Notamed and publicised TRA. 'Twas infringed, fact! Those that infringed obviously failed to correctly brief, and therefore failed in their airmanship. I started a thread a couple of weeks ago on the Rotorheads site, after the Reds flypast at Wembley, and I got a fair bit of flak. Ok, maybe in that instance, my beef was about aircraft in class G airspace, but it still comes down to good airmanship. We should all be on the same side, rather than pointing fingers and accusing. Yes, someone screwed up and perhaps, safety may have been compromised. But, let this be a forum for educating rather than persecuting...much as my thread in Rotors was intended. Maybe I took the wrong approach there, but we should all feel that we are privelaged to have Class G airspace, unlike some countries. The more we abuse the warnings and restrictions, the tighter the noose will be!