Are Master Aircrew Warrant Officers?
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Watch out Chief_two you have a stalker........
I mean that I've seen several threads of his around a couple of military forums that seem to be all about the same issue...
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Do yourself, (Read: your unit), a favour and retire... there's a good chap....
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We are different, but the prestige of achieving Warrant Rank is the same.
For example, the fact that Australian WO2s are now equivalent to Flight Sergeants and CPOs (Staff Sergeant is being phased out,apparently) has caused some concern amongst Australian WOs - see the following from the Australian Army News:
Poster woe
For example, the fact that Australian WO2s are now equivalent to Flight Sergeants and CPOs (Staff Sergeant is being phased out,apparently) has caused some concern amongst Australian WOs - see the following from the Australian Army News:
Poster woe
I WOULD like to express my concern over an issue that has troubled me for a little while. The catalyst for my concern is the relatively innocuous rank identification poster that we often see adorning unit orderly rooms and CSI shopfronts.
My concern has is with a misconception that these posters promote – that equivalence exists between warrant-officer appointments in Army and some non-commissioned ranks in the other services.
These posters used to display the distinct differences between the three services, and soldiers, sailors and airmen used to be able to readily refer to them and clearly identify ranks unique to each of the three services – a valuable tool for those newly posted to a tri-service unit and public servants alike.
Unfortunately since then, with no apparent justification or discussion, these posters were amended to reflect that WO2 (peculiar to Army) is in fact equivalent to that of chief petty officer in Navy and flight sergeant in Air Force. How this could be true, I struggle to see.
When you remove the emotive arguments of job function, remuneration and time in service, you are left only with interpretation. DFDA Section 3 defines a warrant officer as a soldier, sailor or airman holding the rank of warrant officer. The Army Protocol Manual supports this by describing that warrant officers are appointed by warrant and are not non-commissioned officers.
DFDA Section 3 goes on to describe non-commissioned officers as soldiers holding a rank not higher than that of staff sergeant, sailors holding a rank not higher than chief petty officer and airmen holding a rank not higher than flight sergeant.
Clearly, in this interpretation, warrant officers, are not non-commissioned officers. So why are we telling our officers, sailors, soldiers and airmen (indirectly, as may be the case) that WO2, chief petty officer and flight sergeant are equivalent when clearly they are not?
WO2 A**** E****
LWC-NQ
Lavarack Barracks
WO1 J*** H****, RSM Ceremonial – Army, responds:
THE badges of rank and special insignia posters you refer to are promulgated to assist those who cannot readily identify corresponding ranks within the ADF. Those posters are drawn from Defence Force Regulations 1952 - Reg 8, which is legislation, and clearly shows that chief petty officer, WO2 and flight sergeant are corresponding ranks.
Your reference to the Defence Force Discipline Act Section 3 and its definitions is relevant only to the responsibilities of those ranks within the act.
My concern has is with a misconception that these posters promote – that equivalence exists between warrant-officer appointments in Army and some non-commissioned ranks in the other services.
These posters used to display the distinct differences between the three services, and soldiers, sailors and airmen used to be able to readily refer to them and clearly identify ranks unique to each of the three services – a valuable tool for those newly posted to a tri-service unit and public servants alike.
Unfortunately since then, with no apparent justification or discussion, these posters were amended to reflect that WO2 (peculiar to Army) is in fact equivalent to that of chief petty officer in Navy and flight sergeant in Air Force. How this could be true, I struggle to see.
When you remove the emotive arguments of job function, remuneration and time in service, you are left only with interpretation. DFDA Section 3 defines a warrant officer as a soldier, sailor or airman holding the rank of warrant officer. The Army Protocol Manual supports this by describing that warrant officers are appointed by warrant and are not non-commissioned officers.
DFDA Section 3 goes on to describe non-commissioned officers as soldiers holding a rank not higher than that of staff sergeant, sailors holding a rank not higher than chief petty officer and airmen holding a rank not higher than flight sergeant.
Clearly, in this interpretation, warrant officers, are not non-commissioned officers. So why are we telling our officers, sailors, soldiers and airmen (indirectly, as may be the case) that WO2, chief petty officer and flight sergeant are equivalent when clearly they are not?
WO2 A**** E****
LWC-NQ
Lavarack Barracks
WO1 J*** H****, RSM Ceremonial – Army, responds:
THE badges of rank and special insignia posters you refer to are promulgated to assist those who cannot readily identify corresponding ranks within the ADF. Those posters are drawn from Defence Force Regulations 1952 - Reg 8, which is legislation, and clearly shows that chief petty officer, WO2 and flight sergeant are corresponding ranks.
Your reference to the Defence Force Discipline Act Section 3 and its definitions is relevant only to the responsibilities of those ranks within the act.
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So to recap, as a CW1 are you saluted by enlisted ranks? As a CW2 are you saluted by enlisted ranks? Is a CW5 junior to a OF1? When you go for lunch, which mess do you eat in?
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Apologies for rehashing an old tale...
US General chatting to the Brits prior to GW1:
" So son, whats that rank your wearing there?"
" Staff Sergeant Sir"
" OK, now if you were US Army youd be a Master Sergeant" (or whatever)
" Sir, if I was in the US Army, I'd be a fookin General"
US General chatting to the Brits prior to GW1:
" So son, whats that rank your wearing there?"
" Staff Sergeant Sir"
" OK, now if you were US Army youd be a Master Sergeant" (or whatever)
" Sir, if I was in the US Army, I'd be a fookin General"
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It's a pleasure and an honor to be able to serve my country as a Commissioned Warrant Officer.
Rhetorical old son... rhetorical.
The difference in the British and American forces has become startlingly clear to me now. In the US forces Chiefy is a commissioned Warrant Officer and in the British forces he'd have been kicked half to death by his mates before he got out of basic training.
Cheify, you wouldn't like to transfer, would you?
FS Bell - If you are disatisfied with your Breitling then send me a PM and I'll arrange a swap for my Sekonda which keeps great time. Worth a try.
Cheify, you wouldn't like to transfer, would you?
FS Bell - If you are disatisfied with your Breitling then send me a PM and I'll arrange a swap for my Sekonda which keeps great time. Worth a try.
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In the old days as a sergeant, I was asked by a member of the US Navy SEALs why I had an eagle above my rank.
I told him that I was a 'Queens Falconeer' and that Rotary Crewman was my war role. And that back in the UK I lived in Buckingham palace and looked after the Queens birds of prey...Harriers, Falcons, Eagles, and even a rare Sub Saharan Snow Owl.
It was several hours before I could keep a straight face no longer, they were asking for a visit to the palace.
WM
I told him that I was a 'Queens Falconeer' and that Rotary Crewman was my war role. And that back in the UK I lived in Buckingham palace and looked after the Queens birds of prey...Harriers, Falcons, Eagles, and even a rare Sub Saharan Snow Owl.
It was several hours before I could keep a straight face no longer, they were asking for a visit to the palace.
WM
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sorry for my reply but how can master aircrew man be equivalent to WO1 in the army when they go from flight sgt to master aircrew man. Pardon my ignorance but isnt Flt Sgt the same as Staff Sgt. So there fore Master Aircrew man is the equivalent to WO2 in the army.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
CPG and sqn ldrs in the air force and lt cols in the army are selected whereas promotion to flt lt and maj is automatic.
Therefore a flt lt is equivalent to a major and a sqn ldr to a lt col?
The real answer lies in the pay grades.
Therefore a flt lt is equivalent to a major and a sqn ldr to a lt col?
The real answer lies in the pay grades.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
CPG, I know that, the point I was making was check the WO pay scales. You are querying FS/SS and WO/WO2/WO1/MAcr.
I was also making the point that promotion in officers is different between services which also suggests your comparison is wrong too.
I was also making the point that promotion in officers is different between services which also suggests your comparison is wrong too.
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MACR may hold the queens warrent but still only equal to a WO2 in the army is my point
The RAF is simply missing a rank compared to the Army and consequently F/Sgt goes straight to Warrant Officer/Master AC and equates to WO1 or OR9 in NATO terms.
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This conversation has gone on too long...
Allow me to give you an example of Reality:-
Situation: Back end of any aircraft you want to think of that employs Loadmasters.
Any non-Aircrew rank you want to mention, (An-Arywtm: I'm going to sit over there.
Sgt Aircrew: No Sir, you will remain in your seat please.
An-Arywtm: Out of my way Sgt.
Sgt Aircrew: Sir, remain in your seat or I will have you removed from the aircraft.
An-Arywtm: You can't.
Sgt. Aircrew: Captain, I need [whoever] sat in seat X. He insists on moving to seat Y and refuses on staying in his seat. Would you like me to remove him.
Captain: Put him on intercom please
An-Arywtm goes on intercom...
An-Arywtm goes to the seat assigned by the Loadmaster Sergeant!!!!
Who cares who salutes a MACR or is "superior" to them... On their aircraft, which is, after all, their domain, your rank is irrelevant. The MACR is the direct representative of the aircraft Captain and therefore outranks all other non-aircrew. The same applies to a Sgt. Aircrew...
So, the upshot of this silly thread started by a silly man is that SNCO Aircrew don't give a rats behind who salutes who and who is "superior" to who because where they work they have only one boss... The captain!!!!
Close the thread...
Allow me to give you an example of Reality:-
Situation: Back end of any aircraft you want to think of that employs Loadmasters.
Any non-Aircrew rank you want to mention, (An-Arywtm
: I'm going to sit over there.Sgt Aircrew: No Sir, you will remain in your seat please.
An-Arywtm: Out of my way Sgt.
Sgt Aircrew: Sir, remain in your seat or I will have you removed from the aircraft.
An-Arywtm: You can't.
Sgt. Aircrew: Captain, I need [whoever] sat in seat X. He insists on moving to seat Y and refuses on staying in his seat. Would you like me to remove him.
Captain: Put him on intercom please
An-Arywtm goes on intercom...
An-Arywtm goes to the seat assigned by the Loadmaster Sergeant!!!!
Who cares who salutes a MACR or is "superior" to them... On their aircraft, which is, after all, their domain, your rank is irrelevant. The MACR is the direct representative of the aircraft Captain and therefore outranks all other non-aircrew. The same applies to a Sgt. Aircrew...
So, the upshot of this silly thread started by a silly man is that SNCO Aircrew don't give a rats behind who salutes who and who is "superior" to who because where they work they have only one boss... The captain!!!!
Close the thread...
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Flt lt is the same pay grade as Capt in the army I believe the pay is the same not including flying pay. The same as a Lt in the Navy.
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Raf Wo2
Upon formation of the RAF inb 1918 the WO2 rank was adopted from the Army/RFC. It reamined an RAF rank until 1939 when the WO1 and WO2 ranks were combined as WO. And on the status of RAF WO vs Army/RN W01/WO2 I quote from an MoD Defence Select Committee Memorandum:
"Again as now, a warrant officer will only be qualified for membership of the Court Martial if the accused is below the rank that the warrant officer holds. For example, in the Army, a warrant officer first class (WO1) will be qualified to be a member of the Court Martial for the trial of a warrant officer second class (WO2). There is only one class of warrant officer in the RAF, but as they are considered equivalent to an Army WO1, an RAF warrant officer would also be qualified to be a member for the trial of an Army or RN WO2." (my bold)
"Again as now, a warrant officer will only be qualified for membership of the Court Martial if the accused is below the rank that the warrant officer holds. For example, in the Army, a warrant officer first class (WO1) will be qualified to be a member of the Court Martial for the trial of a warrant officer second class (WO2). There is only one class of warrant officer in the RAF, but as they are considered equivalent to an Army WO1, an RAF warrant officer would also be qualified to be a member for the trial of an Army or RN WO2." (my bold)