RAF Air Stewards
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Since the thread is here, and in a spirit of enquiry I note that in a recent edition of the RAF News in the centre pages is the story of a VC10 tanker (non pax variant, can't recall the mark) deploying East. I was surprised to see that part of the crew was an air steward. Given that I always thought they were there to look after pax I wonder what the justification is? AFAIK air stewards are not on any other multi crew aircraft.
Standing by for some sensible comments.
Standing by for some sensible comments.
The Steward is there as a Cabin Supervisor. No loady as the eng does the trimsheet. The Cabin Soup does the safety briefings, is responsible for the cabin in an evacuation etc etc, does customs papers, prepares food etc etc etc....Much cheaper than an ALM and they're also rather good at their job. Used to use holding officers in days of old.
When the 'K' model first entered RAF service, any of the sqn aircrew would go along as the 'trolley tart' (Cabin Supervisor) and look after the cabin. We had 2 ALMs (posted from 10 Sqn) to teach us the mysteries of things like General Declarations and Manifests, but they were never required as a mandatory part of the crew.
We also used the odd holding officer or two as CS, but there was no formal establishment for the VC10K Trolley Tart.
With the increasing 'Health and Safety' and other nanny-state regulations (which didn't allow 'untrained' personnel to pop an ACB into the oven for the stipulated time......far too difficult....
), the Cabin Supervisor empire was created and only those trained as such could now make the tea. Both 10 and 101 flew the VC10C1K (for which ALMs were scaled) as well as the few remaining Ks which hadn't been thrown away to keep the rest of the fleet staggering along. However, the ALMs then found a way of getting out of flying on UK AAR trips without passengers on the C1K - they would 'despatch' the aircraft and then slope off home. This consisted of counting the empty seats, doing the trim sheet and handing out the infernal S1 boxes - unlike the 101 Ops people of previous years, the 10 Sqn ALMs in 10/101 Ops weren't sufficiently competent to order real in-flight meals for what they ignorantly termed 'local' trips.... But those cross-trained as Trolley Tarts on the K were generally rather easier to work with than some of the old truckie fossils - and were very good at their jobs and a pleasure to have on board.
Of course when 101 took over 10, there were a load more ALMs and Air Stewards available, so finding a suitable Trolley Tart (of either, or indeterminate gender) can hardly be very difficult these days.
We also used the odd holding officer or two as CS, but there was no formal establishment for the VC10K Trolley Tart.
With the increasing 'Health and Safety' and other nanny-state regulations (which didn't allow 'untrained' personnel to pop an ACB into the oven for the stipulated time......far too difficult....
), the Cabin Supervisor empire was created and only those trained as such could now make the tea. Both 10 and 101 flew the VC10C1K (for which ALMs were scaled) as well as the few remaining Ks which hadn't been thrown away to keep the rest of the fleet staggering along. However, the ALMs then found a way of getting out of flying on UK AAR trips without passengers on the C1K - they would 'despatch' the aircraft and then slope off home. This consisted of counting the empty seats, doing the trim sheet and handing out the infernal S1 boxes - unlike the 101 Ops people of previous years, the 10 Sqn ALMs in 10/101 Ops weren't sufficiently competent to order real in-flight meals for what they ignorantly termed 'local' trips.... But those cross-trained as Trolley Tarts on the K were generally rather easier to work with than some of the old truckie fossils - and were very good at their jobs and a pleasure to have on board.Of course when 101 took over 10, there were a load more ALMs and Air Stewards available, so finding a suitable Trolley Tart (of either, or indeterminate gender) can hardly be very difficult these days.
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I think I understand the concept of Cabin Supervisor, that seems fairly straightforward. For a tanker without pax it seems somewhat odd to me. Out of interest do other multi occupancy (eg Nimrod, Tristar Tankers, E3a) fleets feel the need for specially trained crewmembers to reheat pies?
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Beagle,
Sorry to burn your ACB, but it was not a case of ALMs dodging local AAR trips, but more of issue of protecting a scarce resource by not allocating highly trained aircrew to be as you so tactfully put it - trolley tarts.
As for your not getting the ACB in the first place, well boo hoo and stop bitching. Your average FJ/SH mate puts in a day's ( far more demanding ) flying with nothing more than a cardboard box and a coke can for rations. The ALMs did not create the catering regs you allude to, but got all the grief when things went wrong. As for ignorance - please keep setting the example and we will try to keep up with you....
C130JB
Sorry to burn your ACB, but it was not a case of ALMs dodging local AAR trips, but more of issue of protecting a scarce resource by not allocating highly trained aircrew to be as you so tactfully put it - trolley tarts.
As for your not getting the ACB in the first place, well boo hoo and stop bitching. Your average FJ/SH mate puts in a day's ( far more demanding ) flying with nothing more than a cardboard box and a coke can for rations. The ALMs did not create the catering regs you allude to, but got all the grief when things went wrong. As for ignorance - please keep setting the example and we will try to keep up with you....
C130JB
Last edited by c130jbloke; 19th May 2007 at 16:14.
Kitbag,
A VC10K tanker can fly with just the 4 flight deck crew plus one passenger on the jump seat. This is the standard configuration for AAR sorties from a main operating base. A handful of type-qualified aircrew may occupy seats in the cabin without a Cabin Supervisor.
However, once there are passengers (even just one) in the cabin there must be a qualified Cabin Supervisor to conduct the safety drills. The CS may be an ALM (all qualified) or an Air Steward (not all qualified). If the aircraft is landing away from a main operating base some groundcrew will be carried. Groundcrew are not qualified to conduct any of the cabin drills and must be looked after by a CS. Hence on trail, even in the pure tanker role, a CS will always be part of the crew.
Unlike the VC10K, the C1K requires a proper trim sheet that can only be done by an ALM. The ALM can dispatch the aircraft as described earlier, but clearly this practice can only be employed when operating sorties to/from a main base. Even on a trail, in the purely AAR role, a C1K will probably also have a couple of extra Air Stewards on board. This is so that the correct crew complement is in place to allow the aircraft to be re-tasked into the pax carrying role whilst away. As with airlines, the number of cabin crew is driven by the safety drills and the trolley-dollying is a convinient secondary role.
No mark of TriStar flies in any role without an ALM, and for the reasons outlined above, a trail crew will have Air Stewards to allow for increased pax numbers if required.
I have no idea how the Nimrod and E-3 conduct safety drills whilst carrying their own groundcrew/passengers. Maybe the number of type-qualified aircrew in the back is deemed sufficient to supervise the evacuation of unqualified personnel. Perhaps some of these rear-crew are allocated to specifically supervise the pax in th event of an evacuation?
As an aside, the Air Stewards on the Canadian Airbus are chosen from volunteers from all trades/services. They reason that very little of the ground catering trade training is directly applicable to the job, so why not accept volunteers from any trade for a flying tour. I think this is a great idea and employing some Army/Navy cabin crew would break down some of the "us and them" perceptions. I also think it is much more preferable to have all-volunteer crew, whatever their background
A VC10K tanker can fly with just the 4 flight deck crew plus one passenger on the jump seat. This is the standard configuration for AAR sorties from a main operating base. A handful of type-qualified aircrew may occupy seats in the cabin without a Cabin Supervisor.
However, once there are passengers (even just one) in the cabin there must be a qualified Cabin Supervisor to conduct the safety drills. The CS may be an ALM (all qualified) or an Air Steward (not all qualified). If the aircraft is landing away from a main operating base some groundcrew will be carried. Groundcrew are not qualified to conduct any of the cabin drills and must be looked after by a CS. Hence on trail, even in the pure tanker role, a CS will always be part of the crew.
Unlike the VC10K, the C1K requires a proper trim sheet that can only be done by an ALM. The ALM can dispatch the aircraft as described earlier, but clearly this practice can only be employed when operating sorties to/from a main base. Even on a trail, in the purely AAR role, a C1K will probably also have a couple of extra Air Stewards on board. This is so that the correct crew complement is in place to allow the aircraft to be re-tasked into the pax carrying role whilst away. As with airlines, the number of cabin crew is driven by the safety drills and the trolley-dollying is a convinient secondary role.
No mark of TriStar flies in any role without an ALM, and for the reasons outlined above, a trail crew will have Air Stewards to allow for increased pax numbers if required.
I have no idea how the Nimrod and E-3 conduct safety drills whilst carrying their own groundcrew/passengers. Maybe the number of type-qualified aircrew in the back is deemed sufficient to supervise the evacuation of unqualified personnel. Perhaps some of these rear-crew are allocated to specifically supervise the pax in th event of an evacuation?
As an aside, the Air Stewards on the Canadian Airbus are chosen from volunteers from all trades/services. They reason that very little of the ground catering trade training is directly applicable to the job, so why not accept volunteers from any trade for a flying tour. I think this is a great idea and employing some Army/Navy cabin crew would break down some of the "us and them" perceptions. I also think it is much more preferable to have all-volunteer crew, whatever their background
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BP, got that, thanks for your time. What struck me aout this article was there were no pax, just the flight deck crew which is why I queried the Air Stewards role, it also led me to (perhaps mistakenly) believe that the AS was part of the standard crew complement for tanking only sorties. The trail in this case appears to have included a roulement of the tanker asset, presumably with no en route stops from the way the article was written.
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Been out of the AT system for four years now but I do remember in GASOs at the time was a comment that the VC10K had to carry a LM or an Air Engineer with a Freight Bay Management Cat if there were passengers in the cabin. Also seem to remember this was diluted further to include a Ground Engineer? I suspect that because a Steward was carried he was in the cabin and so he was therefore required to assist himself with emergency egress from the main hold if required - if you catch my drift?..... I also remember that some ALMs were posted to the Nimrod Fleet in the late 70s but it was binned after a couple of years. It did provide a good sin bin for the naughty boys from Lyneham at the time though!
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So why does an ALM have to fly on a TriStar on a standard towline in the UK when there are no pax on board? What exactly does he do when airborne other than feed the pilots/eng?