SAR privatisation
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I did read somewhere that Bristow had a 98.8% serviceability with the S61n in the 23 years they had the Coastguard contract.
Makes you wonder why they lost it and who they upset
Makes you wonder why they lost it and who they upset
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"You're on your own from day one in the cabin and proper, frontline military SAR experience at a full-time SAR base should be a pre-requisite."
Hmm now there is one opinion!
So the argument is that the training civilian counterparts at bases such as Waterford, (run by ex mil instructors), is not comparable (in terms of standards) to Sartu and Skocu?
Time to let go me thinks and go pick up a druggie in Perth.....
Hmm now there is one opinion!
So the argument is that the training civilian counterparts at bases such as Waterford, (run by ex mil instructors), is not comparable (in terms of standards) to Sartu and Skocu?
Time to let go me thinks and go pick up a druggie in Perth.....
Join Date: Apr 2002
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If the contract states that the service must be the same then yes, as civilian SAR crews are not trained in NVG ops and have less overland SAR experience. This is due to their tasking, not their ability, but is still a fact.
Even the Stornoway crews have a relatively small number of mountain jobs. You would not consider taking an ab-initio Wattisham crew to Lossiemouth, so the balance of experience must be a factor for consideration for SAR-H.
Even the Stornoway crews have a relatively small number of mountain jobs. You would not consider taking an ab-initio Wattisham crew to Lossiemouth, so the balance of experience must be a factor for consideration for SAR-H.
Chaps,
Take a good look at the SAR H crews, there is some serious experience there, infact it could be new RN squadron. Alot of the guys/girls are very happy to be working for CHC and if mobile phone calls from old mil work buddy's are anything to go by then there are alot of chaps/chicks hoping to gain a civilian SAR job in the next few years.
Wake up and smell the coffee its going to happen!
Take a good look at the SAR H crews, there is some serious experience there, infact it could be new RN squadron. Alot of the guys/girls are very happy to be working for CHC and if mobile phone calls from old mil work buddy's are anything to go by then there are alot of chaps/chicks hoping to gain a civilian SAR job in the next few years.
Wake up and smell the coffee its going to happen!
This is a classic case of a non-story being used to push up viewing figures by eager journalists.
Paul was only echoing the sentiments of many of us who feel frustrated at the thought of losing military SAR to the cheapest bidder.
Many of those who peruse these pages know that Sea King serviceability can be poor - given the number of hours they fly compared to civilian counterparts this is not completely surprising. However, no-one elses serviceability figures come under such close scrutiny as ours - partly our own fault maybe for being too honest!
The bottom line is that we do achieve a very impressive serviceability level despite the fact that it is an old aircraft and we continue to serve the British public in the same professional way we always have.
Yes it would be nice to have new aircraft, but you can blame the Govt for using up all the money on bigger and better toys and playing world domination.
Paul was only echoing the sentiments of many of us who feel frustrated at the thought of losing military SAR to the cheapest bidder.
Many of those who peruse these pages know that Sea King serviceability can be poor - given the number of hours they fly compared to civilian counterparts this is not completely surprising. However, no-one elses serviceability figures come under such close scrutiny as ours - partly our own fault maybe for being too honest!
The bottom line is that we do achieve a very impressive serviceability level despite the fact that it is an old aircraft and we continue to serve the British public in the same professional way we always have.
Yes it would be nice to have new aircraft, but you can blame the Govt for using up all the money on bigger and better toys and playing world domination.
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Programme detail
Inside Out reports on air sea rescue on BBC One, 1930GMT, Wed 7 Nov (NE/Cumbria and Yorks/Lincs regions only), D-Sat channels 975/977 or at the Inside Out website below:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/conte..._feature.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/conte..._feature.shtml
Blame My Parrot
Join Date: Apr 2005
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reveal that in the first nine months of 2007 the RAF base at Leconfield in East Yorkshire did not have a serviceable helicopter available for 300 hours.
300 hours = 4.5%
Availability = 95.5%
Not perfect, but not wrist slashingly awful either, is it?
But they are flying aircraft designed to last 10,000 hours in the air
10,000 hours is a standard military life for an aircraft, it is less than you would expect from an equivalent civilian aircraft because of the battering that we tend to give them completing military ops.
However, I think as long as the Design Authority are happy then this life can be extended indefinitely - no doubt at some ridiculous cost.
However, I think as long as the Design Authority are happy then this life can be extended indefinitely - no doubt at some ridiculous cost.
Join Date: Nov 2007
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The reality of mil SAR
The SAR force is dead in its military form. It commited suicide many years ago when it decided it was far too pretty to go to war. The civvies have been queing up ever since.
Lets not talk about saving it: there's little point.
The reality of SAR is that most operaters are virtually civvies anyway. They work civvi (its a job not a lifestyle),think civi (whine about going to the oh so dangerous falkland islands) and mostly even dress bloody civvi (bright red jackets; rank tabs and head dress optional).
The only thing left to make civvi is the paperwork. Save those who still have a sense of miltary purpose and employ them effecively in a deployable role i say. Scrap the rest.
If you dont relish the prospect of visiting a battlefield in the near future hang up your helmet and sign a different contract.
There's plenty of skill in this line of work but virtually no sense of service.
Lets not talk about saving it: there's little point.
The reality of SAR is that most operaters are virtually civvies anyway. They work civvi (its a job not a lifestyle),think civi (whine about going to the oh so dangerous falkland islands) and mostly even dress bloody civvi (bright red jackets; rank tabs and head dress optional).
The only thing left to make civvi is the paperwork. Save those who still have a sense of miltary purpose and employ them effecively in a deployable role i say. Scrap the rest.
If you dont relish the prospect of visiting a battlefield in the near future hang up your helmet and sign a different contract.
There's plenty of skill in this line of work but virtually no sense of service.
Last edited by SARoperator; 9th Nov 2007 at 20:45. Reason: spelling
Ah SARoperator - another one who just doesn't understand that SAR and combatSAR are 2 completely different disciplines
There are plenty of us with more than enough military ethos in the SAR world - some with numbers of medals that would make your eyelashes curl.
I know of several SAR boys facing OOA dets with more to come - none will shirk it.
The reality is that we operate mainly in a civilian environment and as such have to try to fit in or they won't understand what we do.
If you don't understand why the rearcrew wear bright red kit in the hills then I can't be a8sed to explain it to you.
Sense of service is a generational thing - the youth of today joing HM forces are not motivated by the same things as I was and in 20 years it will be different again - it's not only the SAR world that has this problem, look around you.
There are plenty of us with more than enough military ethos in the SAR world - some with numbers of medals that would make your eyelashes curl.
I know of several SAR boys facing OOA dets with more to come - none will shirk it.
The reality is that we operate mainly in a civilian environment and as such have to try to fit in or they won't understand what we do.
If you don't understand why the rearcrew wear bright red kit in the hills then I can't be a8sed to explain it to you.
Sense of service is a generational thing - the youth of today joing HM forces are not motivated by the same things as I was and in 20 years it will be different again - it's not only the SAR world that has this problem, look around you.
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Understanding is a generational thing
I'm quite aware of the spectrum on which UK SAR rests but you hit the nail on the head with the comment about the civilian environment. Clearly deployed sar (and above) cannot be done with the current frames, with the current training and role but my point is that their is no appetite for it.
People will not shirk OOA watchkeeping because they can't (clearly).
However if you take the average sar guy out of their little civvi corner and put them into a more military environment, they really show how out of touch with the modern airforce their discipline is. (notwithstanding a few ex SH ledges around the place).
Red jackets for operating - fine. Around camp - wrong. FACT.
People will not shirk OOA watchkeeping because they can't (clearly).
However if you take the average sar guy out of their little civvi corner and put them into a more military environment, they really show how out of touch with the modern airforce their discipline is. (notwithstanding a few ex SH ledges around the place).
Red jackets for operating - fine. Around camp - wrong. FACT.
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SAR Operator,
You must get lots of exercise making those sweeping generalisations!
Put a SAR guy into SH and he flounders. Interesting comment. Thinks of SAR to SH transfers........ without naming anybody...... Tries to think of those who floundered .... nope cant think of any floundering over the last 15 years..... Oh perhaps those would be the few SH ledges you mention - i.e. the SAR chaps who transfer across and do well?
Ah, are we close to the truth here? Are you a wanna be? Or are you on Sh flying with an ex SAR chap who you just don't get on with? So perhaps you tar all with one persons mistakes?
Something doesn't add up about your posts.
However, sadly, there are 2 points that I must agree with you on. Red jackets right and proper for the hills, wrong for SHQ. And yep, they did commit suicide 10 years ago.
You must get lots of exercise making those sweeping generalisations!
Put a SAR guy into SH and he flounders. Interesting comment. Thinks of SAR to SH transfers........ without naming anybody...... Tries to think of those who floundered .... nope cant think of any floundering over the last 15 years..... Oh perhaps those would be the few SH ledges you mention - i.e. the SAR chaps who transfer across and do well?
Ah, are we close to the truth here? Are you a wanna be? Or are you on Sh flying with an ex SAR chap who you just don't get on with? So perhaps you tar all with one persons mistakes?
Something doesn't add up about your posts.
However, sadly, there are 2 points that I must agree with you on. Red jackets right and proper for the hills, wrong for SHQ. And yep, they did commit suicide 10 years ago.
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Presently - 12 bases so 12 duty a/c.
Future - ? bases and locations but still 12 duty a/c to cover same areas in same time constraints.
66 military personnel to be provided to sucessful bidder ie 16 crews so that SAR expertise does not degrade in frontline ops.
It is up to the bidder how he deploys those military personnel around the UK and how he uses the crews ie mil crews / civvi crews or mixed.
Where those mil guys come from and at what stage of their career is up to the mil, after all they are still paying for the service.
Now go argue some more
(ex mil SAR/ QHI/ NVGI/ now enjoying the greener grass):
Future - ? bases and locations but still 12 duty a/c to cover same areas in same time constraints.
66 military personnel to be provided to sucessful bidder ie 16 crews so that SAR expertise does not degrade in frontline ops.
It is up to the bidder how he deploys those military personnel around the UK and how he uses the crews ie mil crews / civvi crews or mixed.
Where those mil guys come from and at what stage of their career is up to the mil, after all they are still paying for the service.
Now go argue some more
(ex mil SAR/ QHI/ NVGI/ now enjoying the greener grass):
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SAR Policy
There is much on this thread about the SAR Force committing suicide and not being suitable for war and some questioning of the personal ethos of those involved. While I would take the point of view that the SAR F is not a part of the warfighting RAF I would not do down those who serve in the SARF because of it. The people in the SARF fulfil the role and mission which they are ordered to fulfil. The government has chosen to operate a SAR organisation in this way, not the boys and girls in the yellow helicopters. They have done and still do a great job. To denegrate their professionalism or commitment on the grounds that they have somehow dodged a duty is crass and unrealistic. As are the claims that SAR people cannot transfer to SH and be a success. There have been plenty ex SAR guys who have gone succesfully into SH and vice versa.
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SARboys in SH struggle??? You check your facts mate. Two of my good mates have gone across to SH and shone. An SH mate has just left SAR after a year, and if you care about checking the truth you may find that the workload and skillset required is significantly greater than you realise.
I for one dont relish stopping my primary role to sit behind a watchkeeping desk, and I would expect anyone else to feel the same. Never mind the dubious politics involved in such watchkeeping, there is nothing dubious in taking people off hills with serious injuries and it gives a satisfaction that watchkeeping never will.
Listen the people who have done both, they are the ones who know. I, and you, have not, so dont be an arrogant s**t and assume you know it all. You make yourself look bitter and/or stupid.
I for one dont relish stopping my primary role to sit behind a watchkeeping desk, and I would expect anyone else to feel the same. Never mind the dubious politics involved in such watchkeeping, there is nothing dubious in taking people off hills with serious injuries and it gives a satisfaction that watchkeeping never will.
Listen the people who have done both, they are the ones who know. I, and you, have not, so dont be an arrogant s**t and assume you know it all. You make yourself look bitter and/or stupid.