SAR privatisation
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Civilian SAR
Meat
Local rescue organisations and populace are accustomed to the service and the service provider that they already have. People are naturally conservative and distrust anything new or different. For example, people stay with the same Bank/Building Society for years although they could get better and cheaper service elsewhere. Rescue Oscar Charlie, the Bristow/MCA helicopter based in Shetland is engrained into the local community; no amount of persausion would alter the local fishing fleet's love of the white and blue cab that many locals owe their life too. Ditto Lossie, Chivenor etc...
A case in point was the other day during a face to face the civvie MRT leader mentioned how glad he was the helo on scene was yellow. Ask the boys at the ARCC what the get ASKED for by the guys on the ground......and you'll find it's not white & red.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Somerset
Posts: 196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To throw the cat amongst the pigeons for a second. Is not the reason for contractorising the engineering personnel that there is a drawdown in service manpower under MTWS? Whilst this is saving money, it is manpower money and not support costs per se. So the driver is not to reduce support costs, it is to meet the Manning Authorities targets. Also worth pointing out that a number of the civilianised posts are mandated as being reservists.
NRDK - you are right to pint out that Stornoway does a sterling job in the mountains at night but I have yet to see a dark and ****ty night where not using the goggles improves the situation. The picture might get a bit speckly but it is always better than pitch blackness which is what you get without goggles. If you used NVG in a previous life you would notice a huge improvement with the Gen3 tubes that we have now.
The only time goggles are useless is in twilight, looking into the setting sun - once it is properly dark they beat reversionary(mortal) hands down and before you ask, yes I have done both.
45 hours a month for 8 pilots and 8 rearcrew is less than 3 hours per crewmember per month - if you think that is enough to maintain competence in the wide range of skill sets required for a SAR crew and allow time to train co-pilots up to be captains then fine (personally I don't)- it certainly won't be if NVG for overland tasking is introduced - then your training bill will get closer to ours.
The only time goggles are useless is in twilight, looking into the setting sun - once it is properly dark they beat reversionary(mortal) hands down and before you ask, yes I have done both.
45 hours a month for 8 pilots and 8 rearcrew is less than 3 hours per crewmember per month - if you think that is enough to maintain competence in the wide range of skill sets required for a SAR crew and allow time to train co-pilots up to be captains then fine (personally I don't)- it certainly won't be if NVG for overland tasking is introduced - then your training bill will get closer to ours.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
8 Pilots + 8 Aircrew = 4 crews
45 hours = 11.25 hours/crew (usually more because of sickness/leave)
4 crews
Therefore each person gets a minimum of 11.25 hours training per month (probably more) + jobs.
Do you need GCSE/O-level maths to join the RAF?
45 hours = 11.25 hours/crew (usually more because of sickness/leave)
4 crews
Therefore each person gets a minimum of 11.25 hours training per month (probably more) + jobs.
Do you need GCSE/O-level maths to join the RAF?
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: midlands
Age: 59
Posts: 172
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Children.
Stop fighting. This is getting sad and tiresome and is not helping anyone. For goodness sake you need your legs slapped!
Yes, the military do more training, but the entry level is much lower for military reasons and requirements i.e. they take people direct from training at about the 250 hr point. The civilian side have mainly experienced [not essentially SAR just higher hours] or people who have licenses and then get SAR training. Its different but overall has a lower daily requirement to train. Yes, I know if you look at some of the, shall we say, older populated flights they have an equivalent number of hours. But hey, lets take YOU. Do you need 4 hrs every shift to maintain your SAR skills - not your QHI skills - your SAR skills? No you dont! You need less because your experienced. I bet you even give up some of your training to bring on new people? So, imagine a system where they are all experienced pilots [not SAR but flying] and you only do the minimum training to achieve the aim. Oh, is that called value for money?
Crabb you have led people to believe that the military fly 6 hrs training per shift. Horse muck! It used to be 4 hrs then was reduced. Not every shift flys 4 hrs training as some will be on Rescues and some you will be ops only because of the state of the SK. You are painting a picture which is doing the military NO favours what so ever.
The civil ladies and gents do it differently. Currently, they are not formally tasked to do the same as the military. When they are, SAR-H, they will be trained accordingly. End of.
Stop trying to cause angst when none needs to exist. SAR-H will bring change. Accept it, embrace it and work to help it come in gathering the best practice from both sides.
But stop this stupid pointless bickering. Its gone way past funny and is dead ahead 40 for sad!
Get with the programme
Stop fighting. This is getting sad and tiresome and is not helping anyone. For goodness sake you need your legs slapped!
Yes, the military do more training, but the entry level is much lower for military reasons and requirements i.e. they take people direct from training at about the 250 hr point. The civilian side have mainly experienced [not essentially SAR just higher hours] or people who have licenses and then get SAR training. Its different but overall has a lower daily requirement to train. Yes, I know if you look at some of the, shall we say, older populated flights they have an equivalent number of hours. But hey, lets take YOU. Do you need 4 hrs every shift to maintain your SAR skills - not your QHI skills - your SAR skills? No you dont! You need less because your experienced. I bet you even give up some of your training to bring on new people? So, imagine a system where they are all experienced pilots [not SAR but flying] and you only do the minimum training to achieve the aim. Oh, is that called value for money?
Crabb you have led people to believe that the military fly 6 hrs training per shift. Horse muck! It used to be 4 hrs then was reduced. Not every shift flys 4 hrs training as some will be on Rescues and some you will be ops only because of the state of the SK. You are painting a picture which is doing the military NO favours what so ever.
The civil ladies and gents do it differently. Currently, they are not formally tasked to do the same as the military. When they are, SAR-H, they will be trained accordingly. End of.
Stop trying to cause angst when none needs to exist. SAR-H will bring change. Accept it, embrace it and work to help it come in gathering the best practice from both sides.
But stop this stupid pointless bickering. Its gone way past funny and is dead ahead 40 for sad!
Get with the programme
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sarremf
The civil ladies and gents do it differently. Currently, they are not formally tasked to do the same as the military. When they are, SAR-H, they will be trained accordingly. End of.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Up North
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SARREMF
So eloquently put. Spent time in mil SAR at the finest SAR flight going (Not far from Kinloss) and now looking to move across to CHC in the near future. Your words and experience speak volumes. No doubt though the kids will start agin no probably on another thread.
Fwd 40, Winching out, Steady
So eloquently put. Spent time in mil SAR at the finest SAR flight going (Not far from Kinloss) and now looking to move across to CHC in the near future. Your words and experience speak volumes. No doubt though the kids will start agin no probably on another thread.
Fwd 40, Winching out, Steady
SarOwl - your maths is too simplistic because we don't use constituted crews(and I don't think the CG do either). Therefore each shift is likely to be with a different co, radop or winchman who may or may not have done the same training as you and the rest of the crew. Therefore there is much duplication, hence the extra hours.
Previous threads have stated that MCA crews train 1 hour a day which is where my 4 to 1 (and I did say approximately) came from - if they do 1.5 hours a day then it is 3 to 1 for some flights and slightly less than that for others. (Some flights are allowed 4.5 hours trg per day)
Now to put things into perspective, we don't actually fly 4 hours a day every day on training - that is what we are allowed to do unless jobs, serviceability, weather etc get in the way. Most RAF SAR flts average 100-110 ish hours a month with about an 80/20% split of trg to jobs but that still leaves about double the amount of trg compared to an MCA flt.
But, you have to remember that our crews include a radar operator who has radar skills to keep up, as well as FLIR/MSS and his winchop duties. Then factor in that we expect a new pilot on the Sqn (straight from training) to achieve Operational captaincy in about 18 months which takes loads of training and you start to see why we look so much more expensive.
SARREMF - your comments regarding experienced crews not needing as much training are bo88ocks - ALL flying skills are perishable with IF and night flying being the most fragile. I fly less of my own training because I am always training or checking others and I am painfully aware of my own skill fade.
Having lots of flying experience does not make you a good SAR pilot/winchman/winchop - it helps in some situations but is not a replacement (however cheap) for quality SAR training.
Unfortunately you are typical of the non SAR aviators who think they know best about a job they have never done and get all their top info and opinions from crew room chat.
I am not trying to cause angst - change will come, I am sure of it - but when that change comes it needs to be right, not just cheap. Therefore I will continue to fight our corner and highlight where the 'we are cheaper and therfore better' argument is flawed.
PS - over a 30 year contract, if you don't train your SAR co-pilots up to be SAR captains, where are your SAR captains going to come from?
Previous threads have stated that MCA crews train 1 hour a day which is where my 4 to 1 (and I did say approximately) came from - if they do 1.5 hours a day then it is 3 to 1 for some flights and slightly less than that for others. (Some flights are allowed 4.5 hours trg per day)
Now to put things into perspective, we don't actually fly 4 hours a day every day on training - that is what we are allowed to do unless jobs, serviceability, weather etc get in the way. Most RAF SAR flts average 100-110 ish hours a month with about an 80/20% split of trg to jobs but that still leaves about double the amount of trg compared to an MCA flt.
But, you have to remember that our crews include a radar operator who has radar skills to keep up, as well as FLIR/MSS and his winchop duties. Then factor in that we expect a new pilot on the Sqn (straight from training) to achieve Operational captaincy in about 18 months which takes loads of training and you start to see why we look so much more expensive.
SARREMF - your comments regarding experienced crews not needing as much training are bo88ocks - ALL flying skills are perishable with IF and night flying being the most fragile. I fly less of my own training because I am always training or checking others and I am painfully aware of my own skill fade.
Having lots of flying experience does not make you a good SAR pilot/winchman/winchop - it helps in some situations but is not a replacement (however cheap) for quality SAR training.
Unfortunately you are typical of the non SAR aviators who think they know best about a job they have never done and get all their top info and opinions from crew room chat.
I am not trying to cause angst - change will come, I am sure of it - but when that change comes it needs to be right, not just cheap. Therefore I will continue to fight our corner and highlight where the 'we are cheaper and therfore better' argument is flawed.
PS - over a 30 year contract, if you don't train your SAR co-pilots up to be SAR captains, where are your SAR captains going to come from?
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Scotland
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am not trying to cause angst - change will come, I am sure of it - but when that change comes it needs to be right, not just cheap. Therefore I will continue to fight our corner and highlight where the 'we are cheaper and therfore better' argument is flawed.
May I suggest that those who have never worked in the civil SAR world consider that thought for a moment before jumping on their high horses about how wonderful the military SAR are?
(Note: I have experience of both worlds before anyone starts going on about "crew room chat" again!)
Limpopo - I think you miss the whole point of the privatisation thread - it has never been about 'us being better than them' or vice versa - it is about whether the same capability that the military provide can be procured more cheaply in the civilian sector.
I have been attacked several times for daring to say that the military capability exceeds the civilian but I have only ever been defending our position against those would have us believe that the existing civilian SAR is exactly the same as the existing military SAR only cheaper.
You must admit that the civilian SAR world has relied considerably on ex-military crews (front and rear) and has not had the need to provide a structured progression from co-pilot to captain (and I am not saying there is none, just that there is a lot less). After all there is only a need for a certain number captains on one flight because they get paid more - in the military they get paid the same and everyone is expected to become a captain.
When the 2012 contract is let, there will be a need to poach/recruit military crews to fill many of the slots, to think otherwise is fanciful. Once that surge is over and the military no longer produces SAR crews for itself, all the future crews will have to come from within the new MCA SAR force. I believe this is one area that CHC scored heavily on over Bristows because they were realistic about training requirements.
I have been attacked several times for daring to say that the military capability exceeds the civilian but I have only ever been defending our position against those would have us believe that the existing civilian SAR is exactly the same as the existing military SAR only cheaper.
You must admit that the civilian SAR world has relied considerably on ex-military crews (front and rear) and has not had the need to provide a structured progression from co-pilot to captain (and I am not saying there is none, just that there is a lot less). After all there is only a need for a certain number captains on one flight because they get paid more - in the military they get paid the same and everyone is expected to become a captain.
When the 2012 contract is let, there will be a need to poach/recruit military crews to fill many of the slots, to think otherwise is fanciful. Once that surge is over and the military no longer produces SAR crews for itself, all the future crews will have to come from within the new MCA SAR force. I believe this is one area that CHC scored heavily on over Bristows because they were realistic about training requirements.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Scotland
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No, I haven't missed the whole point. I just see comments from individuals who think that the civilian world will provide a poorer service than the military, because there wont be as much money put in for training, and that just isn't the case.
I might add there are a number of both crewmen and pilots (including Captains) in civilian SAR units now who have never been near the military. I know that some crewmen have used SARTU (through the FBH links) to be taught the basic techniques and then have returned to their civil SAR units to continue their training and then be brought on line. However, the pilots have been taught without going via the RAF/RN.
Crab, you are right that in the beginning the civil SAR did rely considerably on ex-military SAR crews, but that is not the case so much these days. Many of the units have both pilots and crewmen that have never been near the military other than a short course at SARTU for the crewmen. There are several SAR pilots both in co-pilot and command positions now who have never been in the military. I can think of one unit where they are the majority of the staff.
You say "When the 2012 contract is let, there will be a need to poach/recruit military crews to fill many of the slots, to think otherwise is fanciful." Well, I believe it may be fanciful for you to believe that. At the end of the day, only time will tell, plus of course, whether you can be released from the military!
I might add there are a number of both crewmen and pilots (including Captains) in civilian SAR units now who have never been near the military. I know that some crewmen have used SARTU (through the FBH links) to be taught the basic techniques and then have returned to their civil SAR units to continue their training and then be brought on line. However, the pilots have been taught without going via the RAF/RN.
Crab, you are right that in the beginning the civil SAR did rely considerably on ex-military SAR crews, but that is not the case so much these days. Many of the units have both pilots and crewmen that have never been near the military other than a short course at SARTU for the crewmen. There are several SAR pilots both in co-pilot and command positions now who have never been in the military. I can think of one unit where they are the majority of the staff.
You say "When the 2012 contract is let, there will be a need to poach/recruit military crews to fill many of the slots, to think otherwise is fanciful." Well, I believe it may be fanciful for you to believe that. At the end of the day, only time will tell, plus of course, whether you can be released from the military!
Limpopo, several of the CHC transition team have just left RAF/RNSAR to work civvy and there are also some on the S92 course in July. Many of the rearcrew who are working/will work for CHC are very recently ex-mil.
I am in no way knocking the civilian SAR pilots abilities - expertees in flying is certainly not confined to the military but there are only so many experienced SAR pilots around and, once you have accounted for them, where will you get the rest. If the future capability is to include NVG ops, where will you get the expertees and experience from if not from the military.
In 2012, if all 6 RAF flights and Gannet become civilianised you will need to find 56 SAR pilots and 56 SAR rearcrew - all with the requisite experience - where do you think you will magic them from if not from the MoD?
I am in no way knocking the civilian SAR pilots abilities - expertees in flying is certainly not confined to the military but there are only so many experienced SAR pilots around and, once you have accounted for them, where will you get the rest. If the future capability is to include NVG ops, where will you get the expertees and experience from if not from the military.
In 2012, if all 6 RAF flights and Gannet become civilianised you will need to find 56 SAR pilots and 56 SAR rearcrew - all with the requisite experience - where do you think you will magic them from if not from the MoD?
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Scotland
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That is assuming, of course, that there hasn't been a review of where the SAR units are located by then and the units cut or amalgamated. Not saying there will be, but it's been done before and who says it wont happen again to help reduce the costs for the MCA?
However, assuming all the units will be civilianised there will of course be some ex-military who will get jobs. However, there will be others lurking in other civil operations around the place who may very well have the requisite SAR experience as laid down by the client/winning contractor and not all will go to guys (and gals) straight out of the military.
I understand your protectionism for you and everyone in military SAR and it is very sad for the military to lose the role. However, don't expect it all to come to you on a plate. You will be competing for employment with everyone else.
However, assuming all the units will be civilianised there will of course be some ex-military who will get jobs. However, there will be others lurking in other civil operations around the place who may very well have the requisite SAR experience as laid down by the client/winning contractor and not all will go to guys (and gals) straight out of the military.
I understand your protectionism for you and everyone in military SAR and it is very sad for the military to lose the role. However, don't expect it all to come to you on a plate. You will be competing for employment with everyone else.
Limpopo, I don't think any of us are naive enough to think anything will come to us on a plate - we would still need licences and IRs and neither grow on trees apparently
I still hope that we can retaina big chunk of SAR in the military and not the token gesture that is being suggested at the moment.
As for resiting the bases, none of the competing contractors wants that as it means more outlay to set up a new operation than to assume control of an existing one. The SARH process has looked at it and appears to have come to the conclusion that unless the goalposts are moved (increase response time or similar change of criteria) there is no point in moving the bases.
As ever it will be decided by those who write the jobspec/contract.
I still hope that we can retaina big chunk of SAR in the military and not the token gesture that is being suggested at the moment.As for resiting the bases, none of the competing contractors wants that as it means more outlay to set up a new operation than to assume control of an existing one. The SARH process has looked at it and appears to have come to the conclusion that unless the goalposts are moved (increase response time or similar change of criteria) there is no point in moving the bases.
As ever it will be decided by those who write the jobspec/contract.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: london
Age: 55
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This thread is getting a little tense. As an outsider I think I have worked out that crab vs limpopo is a mil vs civ contest between two 'insiders'.
So that others might be able to form an objective opinion can you chaps provide the following information.
1. What are the full range of skills/roles that your respective organisations are obliged to perform? That will provide a baseline for comparing where the training hours go.
2. Who exactly trains your SAR crews? Fairly straightforward for the military to answer but I am unaware of a civilian flying school that offers either basic or advanced SAR training.
3. Is there a civ SAR unit anywhere that has nobody with a military background and has trained and progressed its own SAR crews using solely civilian experienced aircrew? If there is then there is an effective counter to the mil assertion that civ units rely on the military to provide SAR outflow. If not then the question of how a civilian organisation will tackle this issue in the 'all civilian' future needs to be explained (and costed).
So that others might be able to form an objective opinion can you chaps provide the following information.
1. What are the full range of skills/roles that your respective organisations are obliged to perform? That will provide a baseline for comparing where the training hours go.
2. Who exactly trains your SAR crews? Fairly straightforward for the military to answer but I am unaware of a civilian flying school that offers either basic or advanced SAR training.
3. Is there a civ SAR unit anywhere that has nobody with a military background and has trained and progressed its own SAR crews using solely civilian experienced aircrew? If there is then there is an effective counter to the mil assertion that civ units rely on the military to provide SAR outflow. If not then the question of how a civilian organisation will tackle this issue in the 'all civilian' future needs to be explained (and costed).
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is getting a little tense.
And all wasted I fear and alot of venting of frustrations as this is going to happen anyway (rightly or wrongly, better or worst - it is happening), so it is how it happens that will make it a success or not (and unless you are involved in the contract/project then again I feel that we are all venting our spleen unnecessarily).
But here is one for you (to go off at a tangent - sorry Jevs
- if I am looking at leaving H M Forces in about 3-4 years, have about 4000 hours+, CPL H with most rotary SH platforms under my belt (I even did a Junglie exchange many years ago that saw a little bit of overwater stuff - but nothing on the scale of SARTU or 771) - I am starting the planning for a departure date of Apr 2011 and have absolutely no desire to go airlines or rigs, and my 'dream' civvie job would be HEMS or SAR in the South West of UK (Odiham - Benson - Bristol - Exeter area - with Wiltshire being just the perfect location for a HEMS job and Hampshire/Dorset Coast for any possible SAR opening.
What are the chances of me getting a job (even as a co-pilot and working my way up through the company) - how are the future contract civilian pilots going to be trained?
The obvious answer would be to ask Binnsworth for a SAR tour, but sadly I am pretty much locked into this job until I go now.
Also, without diviluging company Ts & Cs, what is the approximate salary that a SAR and/or HEMs would get based on my entry experience.
Sorry to drag off thread a bit - but it may dampen the latent frustrations that are bubbling away, and also help out a wokka mate.
Cheers
And all wasted I fear and alot of venting of frustrations as this is going to happen anyway (rightly or wrongly, better or worst - it is happening), so it is how it happens that will make it a success or not (and unless you are involved in the contract/project then again I feel that we are all venting our spleen unnecessarily).
But here is one for you (to go off at a tangent - sorry Jevs
- if I am looking at leaving H M Forces in about 3-4 years, have about 4000 hours+, CPL H with most rotary SH platforms under my belt (I even did a Junglie exchange many years ago that saw a little bit of overwater stuff - but nothing on the scale of SARTU or 771) - I am starting the planning for a departure date of Apr 2011 and have absolutely no desire to go airlines or rigs, and my 'dream' civvie job would be HEMS or SAR in the South West of UK (Odiham - Benson - Bristol - Exeter area - with Wiltshire being just the perfect location for a HEMS job and Hampshire/Dorset Coast for any possible SAR opening.What are the chances of me getting a job (even as a co-pilot and working my way up through the company) - how are the future contract civilian pilots going to be trained?
The obvious answer would be to ask Binnsworth for a SAR tour, but sadly I am pretty much locked into this job until I go now.
Also, without diviluging company Ts & Cs, what is the approximate salary that a SAR and/or HEMs would get based on my entry experience.
Sorry to drag off thread a bit - but it may dampen the latent frustrations that are bubbling away, and also help out a wokka mate.
Cheers
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Scotland
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HAL9000
I am not aware of a complete full civilian unit operated by British companies. However, one unit set up in the last few years had trainers with both an ex-military background and fully civilian. In fact the Chief Pilot and his deputy were civilian through and through, the other two trainers were ex RAF and RN. (Pilots) The crewmen were however all ex-military although they had more civilian experience under their belts than military!
Training is in house on the units. As I mentioned in an earlier post, some new civilian crewmen have been trained but they did use SARTU for an initial basic course, the rest of their training was then done on the unit until up to the standard required (comparable with that required by military SAR units I might add).
I believe in-house training is the case for all UK civilian SAR operators currently, although there were lots of rumours around about a civilian SAR school but these seem to have gone quiet recently. Mind you, a civilian SAR school had been mooted many, many years ago by retiring military staff leaving, but never appeared to happen, except for one that went for contracts in the ME I believe. Don't think it lasted long though.
MaroonMan4
Starting salaries would currently be in the region of (dependent on experience and need for direct entry captains):
Capt: £69-73k (+ allowances)
Co-pilots: £51-54k (+ allowances)
These are at the lower bands of the pay scales I might add as I would think it very unlikely to come straight in at anything above about Year 5 for each scale. However, I am not management nor in a position anywhere close to management. You would be given better details by speaking to the relevant company's HR Department.
Allowances could be anything from accommodation, type/role specialisation, training captain, etc.
Not sure about crewmen, but their salaries are comparable with SNCO/WO salaries plus allowances I believe.
I am not aware of a complete full civilian unit operated by British companies. However, one unit set up in the last few years had trainers with both an ex-military background and fully civilian. In fact the Chief Pilot and his deputy were civilian through and through, the other two trainers were ex RAF and RN. (Pilots) The crewmen were however all ex-military although they had more civilian experience under their belts than military!
Training is in house on the units. As I mentioned in an earlier post, some new civilian crewmen have been trained but they did use SARTU for an initial basic course, the rest of their training was then done on the unit until up to the standard required (comparable with that required by military SAR units I might add).
I believe in-house training is the case for all UK civilian SAR operators currently, although there were lots of rumours around about a civilian SAR school but these seem to have gone quiet recently. Mind you, a civilian SAR school had been mooted many, many years ago by retiring military staff leaving, but never appeared to happen, except for one that went for contracts in the ME I believe. Don't think it lasted long though.
MaroonMan4
Starting salaries would currently be in the region of (dependent on experience and need for direct entry captains):
Capt: £69-73k (+ allowances)
Co-pilots: £51-54k (+ allowances)
These are at the lower bands of the pay scales I might add as I would think it very unlikely to come straight in at anything above about Year 5 for each scale. However, I am not management nor in a position anywhere close to management. You would be given better details by speaking to the relevant company's HR Department.
Allowances could be anything from accommodation, type/role specialisation, training captain, etc.
Not sure about crewmen, but their salaries are comparable with SNCO/WO salaries plus allowances I believe.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Limpopo & MaroonMan4
The starting salaries for Civvy SAR are about right, however I think HEMS pilots are on alot less.
Maybe there's a HEMS pilot out there who can enlighten us?
Maybe there's a HEMS pilot out there who can enlighten us?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Uk
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello guys,
I have followed this thread for sometime from the sidelines and have been interested in the complete lack of unity amongst my fellow SAR friends.
We are all here to do a job. When I request that you scramble to an incident I don't care whether you are yellow,black and yellow, grey and red or red and white. All I want to know is that when I reassure my casualty on the end of the radio or telephone that help is on the way it will arrive in a timely fashion and the 4 crew onboard will be professional and will do the job they are sent to do.
It does not matter whether you are military or not your previous experience is not relevant to me, I don't care whether you have been on detatchment overseas or flying shuttle runs to oil platforms. What I wan't when I scramble you is a capable SAR crew to do the job I ask you to do.
There is no point in bickering about training etc....we know how much training goes on at both Civvy and Mil SAR flights and Crab you are the one talking nonsense.
At the end of the day SAR-H will provide the BEST most PROFESSIONAL SAR force for the UK. If anyone on this thread doesn't agree with that idea then perhaps it's time to move onto other things.
I have followed this thread for sometime from the sidelines and have been interested in the complete lack of unity amongst my fellow SAR friends.
We are all here to do a job. When I request that you scramble to an incident I don't care whether you are yellow,black and yellow, grey and red or red and white. All I want to know is that when I reassure my casualty on the end of the radio or telephone that help is on the way it will arrive in a timely fashion and the 4 crew onboard will be professional and will do the job they are sent to do.
It does not matter whether you are military or not your previous experience is not relevant to me, I don't care whether you have been on detatchment overseas or flying shuttle runs to oil platforms. What I wan't when I scramble you is a capable SAR crew to do the job I ask you to do.
There is no point in bickering about training etc....we know how much training goes on at both Civvy and Mil SAR flights and Crab you are the one talking nonsense.
At the end of the day SAR-H will provide the BEST most PROFESSIONAL SAR force for the UK. If anyone on this thread doesn't agree with that idea then perhaps it's time to move onto other things.