Saluting the PM
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...this would now create a huge constitutional crisis, which - almost certainly - parliament would probably win.
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Fair enough, Mr Stormrider, you have your little vote but don't forget that Mr Blair, who you and many others on this thread dish out such (IMHO) juvenile abuse to, was democratically elected under the British system so get over and on with it.
By all means have your own opinions of the man and party but until the next election, tough!
Incidentally I don't like the bloke either.
By all means have your own opinions of the man and party but until the next election, tough!
Incidentally I don't like the bloke either.
In the late 70's I regularly saw a father and son team driving in to work together at Middle Wallop. Father was a major, son was a sergeant (Brian Mills). Out of the car, hats on, face each other across the roof, salute and off to work. Always made me smile.
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And isn't that the point - saluting is a courtesy, and let us call them compliments rather than marks of respect. Whatever one may personally think of the individual, it is discourteous to withold a salute as it is to fail to return one. One thing that sets the Services apart is that we retain (in the face of cuts and mismanagement) both professionalism and politeness.
I can show respect for uncased colours, funeral corteges and
the national anthems of foreign states, but if I really want to show my contempt for poloticians and undeserving senior officers, then my salute must be especially crisp.
By all means salute the Prime Minister, but address him as Mr Blair, not, as he would wish, Tony, or Sir.
I can show respect for uncased colours, funeral corteges and
the national anthems of foreign states, but if I really want to show my contempt for poloticians and undeserving senior officers, then my salute must be especially crisp.
By all means salute the Prime Minister, but address him as Mr Blair, not, as he would wish, Tony, or Sir.
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Maufe,
The key word here is British System.
First only 61% of the electorate bothered to vote.
Of the electorate, 53% were in seats won by Labour and 33% were in seats won by Conservative.
In 2005 33.24% voted Con and 22.64% voted Liberal with a total of 63.8% not voting Labour.
Fair enough, . . . but don't forget that Mr Blair, . . . , was democratically elected under the British system . . .
First only 61% of the electorate bothered to vote.
Of the electorate, 53% were in seats won by Labour and 33% were in seats won by Conservative.
In 2005 33.24% voted Con and 22.64% voted Liberal with a total of 63.8% not voting Labour.
Queen's Regulations
Instructions from the boss.....so pay attention.
"The personal salute, in addition to being a mark of respect, is an act of courtesy and good manners. It is never wrong to salute even if subsequently the person saluting another discovers that person is not entitled to be saluted."
Furthermore:
"An Officer of Her Majesty's diplomatic or other non-military service is entitled to the honours appertaining to his office"
So, regardless of one's views, the PM is entitled to a salute, even in common courtesy
"The personal salute, in addition to being a mark of respect, is an act of courtesy and good manners. It is never wrong to salute even if subsequently the person saluting another discovers that person is not entitled to be saluted."
Furthermore:
"An Officer of Her Majesty's diplomatic or other non-military service is entitled to the honours appertaining to his office"
So, regardless of one's views, the PM is entitled to a salute, even in common courtesy
PC
The PM is one of HM The Queen's Privy Counsellors. Salutes are therefore entirely in order as the saluter would be symbolically paying complements and showing loyalty to HM The Queen rather than the individual.
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Quoting Fawlkes:
"By all means salute the Prime Minister, but address him as Mr Blair, not, as he would wish, Tony, or Sir."
Sorry chap, but that's incorrect. And what "he wishes" doesn't come into it. There are rules, and they are very simple:
1: He IS to be saluted. He is the appointed head of Her Majesty's Government, so recieves a salute whether you happen to like him or not. This is equally applicable to all members of the Cabinet. (But not to the opposition).
2: He is addressed as "Prime Minister" in the first instance, "Sir" in any following converation. All other cabinet ministers are addressed similarly as "Minister" then "Sir".
3: All of this applies notwithstanding your own personal feelings on matters political.. It's in the rules, it's not left down to your own whims on whether you like someone or not. After all, do you only salute senior Officers that you like personally, or respect?
(And in response to the original question):
4: The nice young lady at Northolt who saluted the PM was no doubt the duty Protocol Officer or Movements Officer. It is common courtesy to have the Station Commander or a nominated deputy present at all movements involving a VVIP at an RAF airfield. Regardless of who's operating the flight.
Has no-one here ever been involved in a VIP visit to their station? The 5 pages of rubbish so far on this subject would seem to indicate so.
"By all means salute the Prime Minister, but address him as Mr Blair, not, as he would wish, Tony, or Sir."
Sorry chap, but that's incorrect. And what "he wishes" doesn't come into it. There are rules, and they are very simple:
1: He IS to be saluted. He is the appointed head of Her Majesty's Government, so recieves a salute whether you happen to like him or not. This is equally applicable to all members of the Cabinet. (But not to the opposition).
2: He is addressed as "Prime Minister" in the first instance, "Sir" in any following converation. All other cabinet ministers are addressed similarly as "Minister" then "Sir".
3: All of this applies notwithstanding your own personal feelings on matters political.. It's in the rules, it's not left down to your own whims on whether you like someone or not. After all, do you only salute senior Officers that you like personally, or respect?
(And in response to the original question):
4: The nice young lady at Northolt who saluted the PM was no doubt the duty Protocol Officer or Movements Officer. It is common courtesy to have the Station Commander or a nominated deputy present at all movements involving a VVIP at an RAF airfield. Regardless of who's operating the flight.
Has no-one here ever been involved in a VIP visit to their station? The 5 pages of rubbish so far on this subject would seem to indicate so.
Yes - do away with the one person one vote system. Have differing numbers of votes allotted in accordance with certain criteria - take them away from criminals and certain other categories eg people whose greatgrandparents were not borne here. Yes ,I know, there would still be people getting around the system but, at least, it's a start towards something fairer.
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Maybe a bit off-thread, but don't you also have to salute a VC holder, regardless of the holder's rank?
BTW I saluted an Army Captain a few weeks ago as was riding past on a bike. Bless him, he actually sat up with arms straight to return the compliment.
Cunning Artificer
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When I was at Northolt we had a "book o'rools" that said who was entitled to what and when. As thick as QRs it was. We also had a Staish who spent nearly all his duty hours over on Southside, saluting visitors and engaging them in idle chat, while OC Operations ran the station for him.
Prime Ministers and Ministers were definitley salutable people, along with senior civil serpents (i.e. those who arrived in chauffeur driven government limo's), Commonwealth High Commissioners and foreign ambassadors on official duty and suchlike. Its hard to tell when a foreign ambassador is on official duty ( except the Aussie High Commissioner. He always shaved, and wore shoes and a shirt when he was "official" )
Prime Ministers and Ministers were definitley salutable people, along with senior civil serpents (i.e. those who arrived in chauffeur driven government limo's), Commonwealth High Commissioners and foreign ambassadors on official duty and suchlike. Its hard to tell when a foreign ambassador is on official duty ( except the Aussie High Commissioner. He always shaved, and wore shoes and a shirt when he was "official" )
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PapaJuiette,
Yes, great idea. However no taxation without representation so the tax burden would increase for all of you and I would welcome the tax relief entailed.
My mother was born in India, my grandfather in Ireland, and my great-grandparents too and that over 150 years ago.
Be real.
Peace be with you.
people whose greatgrandparents were not borne here
My mother was born in India, my grandfather in Ireland, and my great-grandparents too and that over 150 years ago.
Be real.
Peace be with you.
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PapaJuliette wrote:
As borne means carried or supported, I fail to understand why only those non-criminals whose great grandparents were immigrants or imported slaves should be allowed to vote in your great scheme. What about us poor souls whose grandparents happened to be indigenous? As slavery was abolished in the empire 200 years ago, your electorate would be exceedingly small and shrinking rapidly.
Either that or your intellect and/or literacy level is/are commensurate with your apparent grasp of modern constitutional democracy.
take them away from criminals and certain other categories eg people whose greatgrandparents were not borne here.
Either that or your intellect and/or literacy level is/are commensurate with your apparent grasp of modern constitutional democracy.
Cunning Artificer
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Forelock tugging and suchlike for Englishmen . . .
Either that or your intellect and/or literacy level is/are commensurate with your apparent grasp of modern constitutional democracy.
Spike Milligan was declared to be either Irish or Pakistani by the Home Office. Either way, because South Africa and Ireland are non-Commonwealth countries and at the time Pakistan's membership was under suspension, neither of us was allowed to vote in a British election or could be issued with a British passport. I had already been serving in the Royal Air Force for five years when I discovered this.
After convincing the Secretary of State for Home Affairs that I was the legitimate son of an Englishman who was himself the legitimate son of an Englishman, the Secretary of State exercised his prerogative and declared that I could be classified as "British by Descent". This entitiled me to a British Passport and the right to vote, although my children would not automatically acquire British citizenship unless they were born in UK.
Since I handed in my beret and S.D. cap I am no longer able to salute, but I'm quite happy to tug my civilian forelock to both the Secretary of State for Home Affairs and his boss. The likes of I are beholden to the likes of 'e and it wouldn't do to upset a chap who could have you cast out into Statelessness with a nod of his head, now would it?
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I may be wrong ( i often am) but there is no saluting of the VC but i believe the etiquette is that if a VC holder enters a room then all should stand regardless of rank. this is out of respect for the VC holder.
when you read a lot of citations for the VC then maybe they should be accorded the privelage of a salute, again it is not wrong to salute in these situations if your personal view point merits such action.
when you read a lot of citations for the VC then maybe they should be accorded the privelage of a salute, again it is not wrong to salute in these situations if your personal view point merits such action.