BA currently recruiting Military pilots - until 31 May 2007

[MrBernoulli]

www,

"longhaul-wife-divorce-syndrome"?

And your experience is ..............?

[itsonlyme]

my tuppence worth!

Couldn't resist joining in the BA debate. I left the RAF and joined BA a few months ago. I left aged 40 on the PA spine.

I agree that if command is the be all and end all BA is not for you, command currently seems to be along the 15-20 years long haul and 10 years short haul, however, if the four shiny silver (yep silver not gold for some reason) rings is not the be all and end all a few points to consider ......

Starting with salary, I was expecting a small pay cut from my RAF PA Flt Lt salary(which I considered worth it for quality of life issues, no need to expand on those, I'm sure I am preaching to the converted), I was pleasantly suprised. My average take home (including allowances, fly pay, sector pay etc etc) is in the regon of 3,500 pcm. Last month take home was 4,500 due to ONE extra trip that was flown on top of normal schedule (yep, that's right, they asked me to work an extra two days, heathrow to Newark and then back and I got aprox 1,200 for it). This then continues to rise every year, as has been previously mentioned the top first officer salary is around the 100,000 basic (plus 15,000 allowances)

Quality of life simply doesn't compare, I know exactly what I am doing approx two weeks before the month starts, no ifs or buts, it is set in stone. Being at the bottom of the list means that you don't get to tailor your roster, i.e. you can't always get the trips or the days off you want and weekends are a non starter for a while (le to believe a few years). That said, if you need a specific day off in a month you seem to pretty much always get it. I am spoon feed everything I need to do the job, transport arranged, tailored route informaton, good hotels, wake up calls booked and then defered all without input from the crew, in fact it's all a bit of a cuture shock! they pay me as an aviator, I go in, fly, come home, end of involvment with company.

Private health cover, loss of ATPL cover, cheap travel etc. The no bond thing is unique to BA, as far as I'm aware all other companys need you to complete a certain amount of time (normally three years) with the company to repay the training costs. If you don't like it leave (with a shiny new airbus/boeing rating on your ticket)

Now the bad bits. You don't know many/any of the people you fly with. There is very little "team" in anything you do. The pension is now (changed about 1 month ago) comparable with most civvy schemes (better than most now) but not even close to military penson. You very occasionally fly with a k**b (hmm, also rings a bell from days in the mob)

In balance my life is massively better than it was a few months ago. This is not a BA advert just some inside info from someone who has made the jump very recently, I've tried to be balanced. I'm sure there are loads of other jobs out there that are equally good, but as I've got no experience of them I can't comment, all I can do is comment on what I know about i.e. BA. Don't regret the stuff or the time I've spent doing what I used to do one bit, although with lovely glowing 20/20 hindsight I would of jumped a whle ago if I'd known for sure how it would be outside

If anyone wants more gen feel free to drop me a line

[MrBernoulli]

Spot on itsonlyme, spot on. I guess one has to allow for the folk for whom command is all encompassing - it rules their lives and appears to be a psychological status thing. But that is easy for us to say, having been through the LH seat.

In any event, for you doubters out there, itsonlyme has succintly laid out why you should consider BA under this scheme. As I think I have said before, if successful through the assessment stage you get a banker of a job in your back pocket, time to finish your ATPL, and good practise at the whole airline recruiting thing. You have committed to nothing! And if you join, and dislike it, as itsonlyme says, "you .... leave (with a shiny new airbus/boeing rating on your ticket)".

You will not get this opportunity elsewhere. What have you got to lose by trying? I understand your discomfort at having to make those first steps towards leaving your 'umpty-ump' year comfort bubble.. You fear about your worth outside of the RAF (Army/Navy) but these are steps that are going to have to be made anyway. Think about it.

[Wader2]

Can't wait for 1 June.

[Airbrake]

There are clearly no right or wrong decisions concerning joining BA. Command is not everything but it does make life a little easier. However, stood at the bar telling your mates you now work for BA is not everything either!
I know my days off up to April 08 (with the exception of 3 reserve months). I also know most if not all of the people I fly with, which makes the day a bit more sociable.
I've had the BA 777 job offer but after much thought decided it wasn't for me, no final salary pension and age was a factor. Which ever way you go decide which best suits your home life not the number, or colour of stripes on your shoulder.

[MrBernoulli]

And on the 1st of June, Wader2, you will be .................. ?

[Carnage Matey!]

Originally Posted by itsonlyme

if the four shiny silver (yep silver not gold for some reason) rings is not the be all and end all

They're platinum rings, which is why they're not gold.

[Arthur's Wizard]

A very interesting thread.

How does one become a member of a Managed Path/RAFCARS scheme?

[120class]

You can join RAFCARS by filling in the form in GAI1028. Alternatively PMA32d or whatever they are called used to administer the Scheme.

[Arthur's Wizard]

120class

Thanks for that. Is this form available at the usual Station HR outlets?! I have not heard of this scheme before.

[120class]

Just checked some RAFCARS paperwork I have and apparently it is available through the RAF Pubs Library on the RAF Intranet.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

This isn't a My-airline-Is-better-Than-your-Airline willy waving competition.

Pros and cons on both sides and an I'm in one camp with plenty of mates in the other so I know the arguments well.

The Clincher in my book is a subtle one and open to dispute. It is this.

You have left the service where you enjoyed working in an intimate, friendly, comradely and social working enviornment. You all know that civvy street isn't like that. Which is true. But at an EZY regional base of say 6 aircraft you will get to know the cabin crew and the FOs. There are christmas parties and summer BBQ's. There will be crew in the town or village you settle in nearby.

You will fly with the same people, develop banter, get ribbed, know the kids, been to the BBQ, deal with the same 3 engineers, meet the Tower etc. etc.

You may not get that to the same extent at Heathrow.

Its a subtle difference. And as I already said, Base, Money, Lifestyle. If you take the 2nd year ex-mil salary as being £74k basic then the other two are up to you.

Cheers

WWW

ps My experience of the longhaul-ex-wife-syndrome is strictly limited to the one I snuggle up to every night. 4 out of 5 longhaul chums (sounds like a petfood advert this) are divorced. It seems to be a trend.

[Flashdance9]

For those in the know, which fleets are BA recruiting for (via the MILA/CARS)? SH or LH?

I was under the impression from BA recruitment that most LH slots had been filled (as of end of last year recruitment). Is there mega expansion planned for BA over next 1-2years?

[dogstar2]

Does anyone have access to pay and pension details? I would like to make a comparison between going to BA and staying in the RAF.

There does not seem to be much information out there about pensions and how much you would get at the end of it all. I

Also I can only seem to find starting salaries and cannot see what my projected pay would be in say 5 years time.

From those in the BA job already; is the work boring or do you derive lots of pleasure from it. How do the finances really work out when you realise you now have to be a member of a gym, pay full golf club membership, pay to commute to work etc etc.

thanks

[Carnage Matey!]

In reverse order:

From those in the BA job already; is the work boring or do you derive lots of pleasure from it. How do the finances really work out when you realise you now have to be a member of a gym, pay full golf club membership, pay to commute to work

It starts out very interesting but, like all things, when you've done too much of it it starts to get boring. 5 years seems to be about an average time before people get bored. Then you change fleet and start the cycle again. Finances seem to work out fine for most people unless you are recently divorced and have numerous wives and child maintenance to pay for.

Also I can only seem to find starting salaries and cannot see what my projected pay would be in say 5 years time

After 5 years your basic would be around the £53-£56K mark, plus around £12K in variable pay (conservative).

Does anyone have access to pay and pension details? I would like to make a comparison between going to BA and staying in the RAF.

Let me give you two alternative career paths, based on say 15 years in BA. You will start on about £44K as a short haul FO and after 10 years be on £65K as a long haul FO. If you stay as a long haul FO after 15 years you'll end up on £77K. If you become a short haul Captain you'll switch to £79K after year 10 and finish on £91K. Don't forget to add the variable pay element.

There does not seem to be much information out there about pensions and how much you would get at the end of it all

Its a money purchase scheme so what you get at the end depends on how much you put in and the cost of annuities when you retire. In terms of how much BA will contribute on your behalf it has, apparently, recently become the best scheme of its type on the market, beating Virgin and GB who were the previous best. I cannot vouch for the accuracy of that claim as I'm not in the scheme.

[Megaton]

I flew with a recruiter last week and he "let slip" that there would be no recruitment for long haul this year. On the upside the company is expanding its long haul fleet with 10 (?) 777s and has acquired LHR slots from GB. You may start on short haul but it shouldn't be for too long.
As for enjoyment? Some days are better than others. LHR is a pain in the ar5e but most of the guys you fly with are pretty reasonable so it's not too arduous. Also, WWW's point about flying with the same guys week in and weekout is fine; however, the downside is that you'll never avoid the base tw@ts for too long!
Short haul First Officer (not current though) pay scales from www.ppjn.com or:
24 83,432
23 81,719
22 80,007
21 78,294
20 76,581
19 74,869
18 73,156
17 71,443
16 69,731
15 68,018
14 66,305
13 64,593
12 62,880
11 61,167
10 59,455
9 57,742
8 56,029
7 54,317
6 52,604
5 50,891
4 49,178
3 47,466
2 45,753
1 44,040
Plus £10 per flying hour and £2.73 per duty hour. £10 for nightstop (5 in case of domestic). Doing about 750-800 hrs per year plus the duty pay etc. Your total pay depends on what kind of work you bid for ie nightstops, short tours, long tours, day trips etc but last year I grossed approx £62k (in my first year) plus RAF pension on top - that does include some, but not much, overtime.
BARP pension is not as good as a final salary and depends hugely upon how long you plan to work for and your AVCs so it's quite difficult to compare like with like. Last round of negotiations saw a huge, and much needed, improvement to BARP.
Bottom line is that it's, obviously, not as lucrative as it used to be but a lot better than most others. Strong union representation and protection that comes with our Bid Line Rules agreement.

[flipster]

WWW has most valid points with which I concur and is also correct on this not being a willy waving contest!

I, too, went orange and am looking to the LHS after 2.5 years but with Boeing 'old generation' and 'new generation' on my licence, as well as the 'bus.

Most important, for me at least, is the lifestyle issue. For example, I know what days I am working (earlies or lates) for the next 18 months (barring two 4-week periods per year).

Furthermore, I have a regained a social life that allows me to play cricket, rugby and sailing as well as party.

There are precious few nightstops, no long through-the-night flights and I sleep at home every night with my missus. I see lots of the kids and I don't get jetlag on my return from work.

Yes, they work you hard but its a lot easier than being in the military where you get less hours but with all the extra cr@p thrown in.

Also, the number of "Base Tw*ts" is almost negligible across the company and is 'nil' at the base at which I work (apart from myself, obviously).

Money/pension/command, for me, means little - lifestyle is everything but I acknowledge that this will be different for each of you.

At the end of the day, BA/Virgin/EZY or HMFC ......is all a matter of 'horses for courses'. All I would say is "look before you leap".

Bon chance

Flip

ps. In civvy street, no-one is shooting at me, there are no ACRs nor secondary duties and neither do I have to sleep in a tent in the desert!

pps The reason why a lot of 24 year olds leave is precisely the same reason why a lot of (but not all) 30-40 years want to stay/join! If I were 24 again, I would want to see the world and sh@g my way across the globe. I don't think EZY would suit my needs!

[Megaton]

Rugby, Flip? Bit late in life to be starting a new sport?

[flipster]

Ha ha ha

Am a ref now!!

Poacher turned gamekeeper perhaps?

flip

[Arthur's Wizard]

I have spoken to my HR peeps who have neither heard of the RAFCARS scheme or can find GAI1028 on the t'intranet.

I am keen to try and join before the magic 31 May so any help on how to register/join would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.