Osprey
Eight Gun Fighter
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Osprey
Seems it's finally getting into full production after 20 years of development. 45 currently with the Marine Corps for training. Untold number of crashes and fatalities. Wanted as a replacement for the Chinook in the middle east initially. Best of luck with it.
Last edited by Rollingthunder; 14th Apr 2007 at 22:42.
More than that, believe first deployment to Iraq is scheduled for July or so. Having had the pleasure of chatting to some of the USMC guys who now use it, they all love it! Only downside is it is pretty big so can't quite get into the tight spots, but that's not how they're intending to use it anyhow. Seems a good piece of kit when it isnt falling from the sky!
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Not untold, very few for a major change in aviation technology.
The CH-53E had fatal crashes during development also... despite being simply an up-size of the CH-53D.
And that 20 years includes a number of years of very low-level R&D funding, thanks to Cheney's attempt to completely kill it back in Bush 41's presidency.
The CH-53E had fatal crashes during development also... despite being simply an up-size of the CH-53D.
And that 20 years includes a number of years of very low-level R&D funding, thanks to Cheney's attempt to completely kill it back in Bush 41's presidency.
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Asymmetric Vortex Ring Losses
The USMC is expecting to lose one every three years to this unsolvable phenomenon.
I think that they'll find it will be more like one per annum, once four Sqns are fully equipped and combat ready.
Because lateral flight control in the transition to (and in) the hover is via differential collective, once you hit asymmVR there is no recovery....as the analysis of the Marana crash proved. The flick-roll is instant and final.
I think that they'll find it will be more like one per annum, once four Sqns are fully equipped and combat ready.
Because lateral flight control in the transition to (and in) the hover is via differential collective, once you hit asymmVR there is no recovery....as the analysis of the Marana crash proved. The flick-roll is instant and final.
Last edited by UNCTUOUS; 15th Apr 2007 at 09:53.
Unctous, A very graphic representation. However, who on earth teaches their pilots to fly at 350ft/40kts? I hope it was a test profile and not representative of training or aircraft shortcomings. If the USMC are going to fly around using that profile then AVR is the least of their worries....
My friends in the USMC are split on the V-22. Some see it as a transformation in capability and reach, others see it as a touchstone for the future of the Corps. However, others are worried by it's less than helicopter transitioning capability and the lack of forward-mounted weapons (I think the chin turret was removed as a money-saver).
Good luck to the guys in theatre, I hope they succeed in making the aircraft work operationally. It's never easy introducing a new capability, the temptation is to use it like an old one....
My friends in the USMC are split on the V-22. Some see it as a transformation in capability and reach, others see it as a touchstone for the future of the Corps. However, others are worried by it's less than helicopter transitioning capability and the lack of forward-mounted weapons (I think the chin turret was removed as a money-saver).
Good luck to the guys in theatre, I hope they succeed in making the aircraft work operationally. It's never easy introducing a new capability, the temptation is to use it like an old one....
Interesting AVR pics.
Trying to understand this - does this comes about from a combination of the slow speed & sink rate that effectively puts the rotor in its own vortex and messes with its usual lift? This also effectively limits ability to control lift for long enough for a big diffential to be created from one side to the other - creating a moment / roll that can't be recovered from?
I guess the only answer here is to avoid such a sink rate/forward speed? Is this programmed into the Flight Control System logic (as with carefree handling in other aircraft?) - or are the pilots just trained never to go there? Can you imagine Boscombe trying to certifying this aircraft!
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Having seen one operate at Farnborough last year - I think it is pretty clear this type of capability is the future (unless affordability issues with the technology render it a bit of a concorde - this shouldn't be the case though). If you look at how often Harriers / Kestrels did unconventional landings (i.e crashed) in the early days, Ospreys development history is not unexpected.
Trying to understand this - does this comes about from a combination of the slow speed & sink rate that effectively puts the rotor in its own vortex and messes with its usual lift? This also effectively limits ability to control lift for long enough for a big diffential to be created from one side to the other - creating a moment / roll that can't be recovered from?
I guess the only answer here is to avoid such a sink rate/forward speed? Is this programmed into the Flight Control System logic (as with carefree handling in other aircraft?) - or are the pilots just trained never to go there? Can you imagine Boscombe trying to certifying this aircraft!
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Having seen one operate at Farnborough last year - I think it is pretty clear this type of capability is the future (unless affordability issues with the technology render it a bit of a concorde - this shouldn't be the case though). If you look at how often Harriers / Kestrels did unconventional landings (i.e crashed) in the early days, Ospreys development history is not unexpected.
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Bell refers to it as Vortex Ring State - similar to other helos - but this particular problem is unique/compounded to/in the Osprey due to their asymmetric blades when encountering their own downwash at higher sink rates & low forward speeds. The parameters aren't vastly different from most other helos.
Any new aircraft will have problems - designing a new type of aircraft and employing it as a military weapons system with such a radical departure from traditional/conventional configurations is bound to have even more problems.
For the record, 4 crashes (plus a prototype crash) - 26 USMC & 4 contractors KIA.
Any new aircraft will have problems - designing a new type of aircraft and employing it as a military weapons system with such a radical departure from traditional/conventional configurations is bound to have even more problems.
For the record, 4 crashes (plus a prototype crash) - 26 USMC & 4 contractors KIA.
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I'd fly it.
Does anyone know if it is very manoeuvrable in the final stages of an approach (like most helicopters are). If it isn't, then I rescind my initial comment if the bad boys are lobbing stuff at me.
Does anyone know if it is very manoeuvrable in the final stages of an approach (like most helicopters are). If it isn't, then I rescind my initial comment if the bad boys are lobbing stuff at me.
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Some questions from someone with a decidely fixed wing background....
Am I right in thinking only 1 rotor enters vortex ring because the collective is not equal ?
If so can't the collective be ganged and if not why do you need differential collective ?
Am I right in thinking only 1 rotor enters vortex ring because the collective is not equal ?
If so can't the collective be ganged and if not why do you need differential collective ?
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ARINC,
If the real aircraft is like the sim I flew a couple of years ago at Pax there's only one throttle, so I assume the FCS makes the differential collective happen. So the next question is why can't they / haven't they written some control laws to prevent this from happening?
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If the real aircraft is like the sim I flew a couple of years ago at Pax there's only one throttle, so I assume the FCS makes the differential collective happen. So the next question is why can't they / haven't they written some control laws to prevent this from happening?
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Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
DefenseNews: Ospreys To Reach Iraq By Ship: Official
JACKSONVILLE, N.C. — The U.S. Marine Corps MV-22 squadron heading out for the Osprey’s first combat deployment next month will get to Iraq the old-fashioned way — the Navy.
Marine Medium Tiltrotor Squadron 263 will sail aboard the amphibious assault ship Wasp, a II Marine Expeditionary Force spokesman confirmed Aug. 8. “It’ll save wear and tear on the airplane,” Lt. Col. Curtis Hill said. “This will also allow time to do shipboard integration operations. That will help us down the road as we look to integrate them with the [Marine expeditionary units]."
"The method for returning them has not yet been decided,” Hill said.
The Norfolk, Va.-based Wasp Expeditionary Strike Group is readying for a routine deployment, said Lt. Cmdr. Herb Josey, a Naval Surface Force Atlantic spokesman.
It’s unknown if the Osprey squadron will return with the Wasp. “The method for returning them has not yet been decided,” Hill said.
The Marine Corps Air Station New River, N.C.-based squadron will operate out of Al Asad Air Base during its seven-month deployment.
“The purpose of this is to take these Ospreys to where they can get into the fight,” Hill said. “They will go to a point from which they’ll deploy from the ship.”
VMM-263 includes 10 tilt-rotors and about 200 Marines and sailors. The squadron has been preparing for its combat deployment debut the past several months, doing everything from taking grunts on their first Osprey flights to integration training with other aircraft.
Ospreys will become the Corps’ new troop transport aircraft, flying faster and farther between refuelings than the CH-46 Sea Knight helicopters they’re replacing. There are three operational MV-22 squadrons — VMM-263, VMM-162 and VMM-266 —all based at New River.
The Corps has an inventory of 52 tilt-rotors and should receive another five this year, said James Darcy, V-22 program office spokesman. Next year, 14 MV-22s are scheduled for delivery to the Corps.
JACKSONVILLE, N.C. — The U.S. Marine Corps MV-22 squadron heading out for the Osprey’s first combat deployment next month will get to Iraq the old-fashioned way — the Navy.
Marine Medium Tiltrotor Squadron 263 will sail aboard the amphibious assault ship Wasp, a II Marine Expeditionary Force spokesman confirmed Aug. 8. “It’ll save wear and tear on the airplane,” Lt. Col. Curtis Hill said. “This will also allow time to do shipboard integration operations. That will help us down the road as we look to integrate them with the [Marine expeditionary units]."
"The method for returning them has not yet been decided,” Hill said.
The Norfolk, Va.-based Wasp Expeditionary Strike Group is readying for a routine deployment, said Lt. Cmdr. Herb Josey, a Naval Surface Force Atlantic spokesman.
It’s unknown if the Osprey squadron will return with the Wasp. “The method for returning them has not yet been decided,” Hill said.
The Marine Corps Air Station New River, N.C.-based squadron will operate out of Al Asad Air Base during its seven-month deployment.
“The purpose of this is to take these Ospreys to where they can get into the fight,” Hill said. “They will go to a point from which they’ll deploy from the ship.”
VMM-263 includes 10 tilt-rotors and about 200 Marines and sailors. The squadron has been preparing for its combat deployment debut the past several months, doing everything from taking grunts on their first Osprey flights to integration training with other aircraft.
Ospreys will become the Corps’ new troop transport aircraft, flying faster and farther between refuelings than the CH-46 Sea Knight helicopters they’re replacing. There are three operational MV-22 squadrons — VMM-263, VMM-162 and VMM-266 —all based at New River.
The Corps has an inventory of 52 tilt-rotors and should receive another five this year, said James Darcy, V-22 program office spokesman. Next year, 14 MV-22s are scheduled for delivery to the Corps.
As one argues the merits of the Osprey, the decision must be viewed with regard to the platform its replacing. The -46 is old, restricted (at least it was in peacetime). Many have bullet hole patches from Vietnam.
As far as the chin turret, I believe that's being looked at in a later block. The data should already be there from the USAF I believe.
As Green night mentions, I remember the -53E in its infancy. The aircraft enjoyed a terrible reputation in the eyes of the media yet is now well proven.
As far as the chin turret, I believe that's being looked at in a later block. The data should already be there from the USAF I believe.
As Green night mentions, I remember the -53E in its infancy. The aircraft enjoyed a terrible reputation in the eyes of the media yet is now well proven.
Re the asymmetric vortex ring thing - differential collective for control in multi-rotor types is hardly new, being used in the Chinook for pitch, so surely it's not insurmountable.
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Chinook versus Osprey - Shirley You Jest?
Arm out da Window said:
Re the asymmetric vortex ring thing - differential collective for control in multi-rotor types is hardly new, being used in the Chinook for pitch, so surely it's not insurmountable.
Re the asymmetric vortex ring thing - differential collective for control in multi-rotor types is hardly new, being used in the Chinook for pitch, so surely it's not insurmountable.
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Not to mention the software thinks it's smarter than the pilot. Won't let the pilot "hurt" the aircraft. "Interprets" what the pilot wants based on flight regime. Not atypical of fly-by-wire, but leaves one to ponder if an override feature for some aspects would be desireable.
For example, in a rapid descent where an over-torque would be more desireable than impacting the ground at a rapid rate, the computer won't let you, so you crash instead. Might be a good time to override the max-torque limit of the software.
For example, in a rapid descent where an over-torque would be more desireable than impacting the ground at a rapid rate, the computer won't let you, so you crash instead. Might be a good time to override the max-torque limit of the software.
Suspicion breeds confidence
I got to see one in action a couple of weeks ago. Very impressive. Sorry to say it makes the Wokka look so last century. I hope it takes off in every way.
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As a techie who looks at complicated mechanisms on machines intended for flight with an eyebrow raised, can I just ask what the recovery procedure is should the engines/nacelles fail in their 'forward flight' mode?
Avoid imitations
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"The method for returning them has not yet been decided,” Hill said.
The Norfolk, Va.-based Wasp Expeditionary Strike Group is readying for a routine deployment, said Lt. Cmdr. Herb Josey, a Naval Surface Force Atlantic spokesman.
It’s unknown if the Osprey squadron will return with the Wasp. “The method for returning them has not yet been decided,” Hill said.
The Norfolk, Va.-based Wasp Expeditionary Strike Group is readying for a routine deployment, said Lt. Cmdr. Herb Josey, a Naval Surface Force Atlantic spokesman.
It’s unknown if the Osprey squadron will return with the Wasp. “The method for returning them has not yet been decided,” Hill said.
