Anzac Day

[Brian Abraham]

Why.



We soon come up to Anzac Day (25 April) in Oz and thought I'd post the following, which came from the Battalion my brother served when he was KIA Vietnam. To all those who serve, and to the mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters and family who have relatives who put themselves in harms way, and especially to Sgt. Rachel McDonald, RAF and her ilk who go above and beyond. God Bless.

Why are they selling poppies mother, selling poppies in town today?
The poppies child are flowers of love for the men who marched away.
But why have they chosen a poppy mother, why not a beautiful rose?
Because my child, men fought and died in fields where the poppies grow.
But why are the poppies so red mother, why are the poppies so red?
Red is the colour of blood, my child, the blood that our soldiers shed.
The heart of the poppy is black mother, why does it have to be black?
Black, my child, is the symbol of grief, for the men who never came back
But why, mother dear, are you crying so? Your tears are like winter rain.
My tears are for you, my child, for the world is forgetting again.

Lest we forget - Dare we forget

[Wiley]

My tears are for you, my child, for the world is forgetting again.

Possibly the saddest - and truest - words ever put into print.

[dogstar2]

There is a saying that wars are started by old men and finished by young ones. In todays climate, how many of these old men have ever had combat experience?

Have out politicians been in combat and experienced the realities of broken bodies and shattered minds?

[Ali Barber]

I always feel humbled when I see the respect the Aussies have for their fallen from so long ago. Especially on ANZAC day, when so many of their youngsters still apply the same respect with pilgrimage like treks to Gallipoli. If only my country was like that!

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Especially so when we remember that they were principally "our" wars and not "theirs". If only we had a Commonwealth alternative to the EU. Trade and union with friends and family and not simply the people who live next door.

Sorry for the slight drift there but I'm always sad at the shared loss and sacrifice when we no longer seem able to share a common future.

I, for one, will spare a thought on ANZAC day.

PS

I still have the Poppy I bought on the shores of Wanaka in 1991. The bloke who ran the shop I bought it in did annoy me, though. He thought it it all best forgotten and living in the past. A total contrast to the ex RNZAF bloke who gave me grief for not being with him in Vietnam. Maybe he had a point; who knows. We had a beer together and drank to our respective Air Forces.

[henry crun]

Ali Barber: I remind you, it is not only the Aussies.

[Samuel]

The "NZ' in ANZAC stands for New Zealand, let's not forget, and I don't know what this guy; "A total contrast to the ex RNZAF bloke who gave me grief for not being with him in Vietnam" was on about as the RNZAF as an arm were never in Vietnam. Sure, they flew in and out with Hercs and Bristol Freighters, and a small number of RNZAF pilots flew with both the USAF and RAAF on FAC and Iroquois, but the RNZAF never operated in Vietnam. He may well have been one of them if he was a pilot, but I could just about name all of them! Just for the record, sixteen RNZAF pilots served in combat in Viet Nam with No 9 Sqn RAAF (now disbanded), flying Iroquois UH-1H. Five were decorated (DFC); two were Mentioned in Dispatches. A seventeenth was killed in a flying accident during work-up training in Australia. Generic callsigns "Albatross" (for the troop carriers, or "slicks"), and "Bushranger" for the gunships.

Fourteen RNZAF plots flew as FACs, variously in the Cessna O-2 ("Oscar Deuce") and the OV-10 Bronco. One received the American DFC; one was Mentioned in Dispatches. Generic callsign "Jade".


It is heartening on Dawn Parades on ANZAC Day to see the ever increasing numbers of young people turning up, wearing dad's or granddad's medals,

[antipodean alligator]

A very moving piece....I felt a strange shiver down my spine with associated goose bumps when I read it.

ANZAC day is a marvellous institution in both Oz and K1W1land. What I found to be my most moving ANZAC experience was being able to participate in full-up ANZAC ceremonies in the UK such as the Battersea Dawn Service, the march at the Cenotaph and the service at Westminister Abbey....It is a credit to the mother-country that they allow the use of such national icons for the celebration of ANZAC day, which was afterall their disaster! And yes I do know that many UK forces died during the Gallipoli campaign too

[L J R]

And like you Alligator, holding the fort during the most northerly of 'Official' ANZAC ceremonies (the one at Dallachy, Spey Bay, Morayshire) is moving when the locals come out respecting the fallen Ozzy bretheren who flew from the now disbanded airfield in which an RAAF (and RCAF) Sqn flew from.

...makes for a good few beers with the exchange officers and the locals alike.

I certainly hope everyone ignores the survey which finds that Australian Muslims are offended by ANZAC day.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Are there any MOTH Shellholes in Oz and NZ? Unfortunately it's a dying institution in this part of the world, in part thanks to the leanings of the govt of the day as well as general forgetfulness on the part of those who benefited from the sacrifices made.

[Cumbrian Fell]

ANZAC in the dust

Somewhere in the 'Stan on 25 April myself and other Commonwealth officers will be comemorating the sacrifice of Australasians. As an aside, I found an old Martini Enfield rifle with New Zealand markings on it for sale at KAIA-Napa last week, reinforcing perhaps, the moving statement on the NZ Memorial at Messines Ridge: "From the Uttermost ends of the Earth"
My thoughts on Gallipoli are mixed. Sadly, the solemnity of the Dawn Service on the peninsula is blighted by the carnival atmosphere of many young backpackers (generally Australians) who have come to view a trip to Gallipoli as a 'rite of passage' involving drinking to excess, amongst other things. There are two viewpoints, I suppose: there is the liberal 'They died so we shall live in freedom' or the stricter view of formalised commeroration of the dead. I recall speaking to some youngsters at an ANZAC service, and although they knew about Gallipoli, their knowledge of the rest of World War I and II was, how shall I say it - sparse. For example, over 80,000 casualties were inflicted on British and French troops at Gallipoli, yet their contribution - which was no less heroic, or indeed no less misguided - has been largely airbrushed from history as the mythology of the ANZAC spirit grows. Wars, as I am reminded on a daily basis here, are a Hobbsian experience of brutal death - not noble sacrifices, just desparately sad losses of young men and women who young enough to be children of mine. One just needs to stand at a repatriation ceremony/ramp service to appreciate that silence speaks volumes.

[MaroonMan4]

Cumbrian Fell

Wise words my friend - and we could all learn from history - but just as in yester year we are all in it together today, just as much in Gallipoli, the lads and lasses of the Commonwealth in dangerous places around the world are stood side by side.

[Sven Sixtoo]

OK Head above parapet.
Please explain the historical backgound to 25 Apr.
Was it thev day of the Gallipoli landings?
Sorry for my ignorance, and I will rmember our Commonwealth colleagues on the day.
Sven

[L J R]

Go here, read all about it.
http://www.anzacsite.gov.au/1landing/

[Sven Sixtoo]

Thanks LJR

I will Remember

Sven

[GreenKnight121]

Thank you to the mods who edited out my comment about how sometimes those who advocate and support wars ARE those with combat, and POW, experiences, and therefore DO know what they are sending the young into.

Nice to see that censorship and deliberate opinion-molding are the policy here too... especially since you did not censor the post accusing "old men who start these wars" of being non-veterans... was the poster a friend of yours?


I gave a serious answer to Dogstar2's question... apparently you didn't like my answer, and felt it your duty to suppress it.

[Blacksheep]

Because they're the only ones that commemorate Gallipoli, it often seems that the ANZACS were the only people there. In fact, the ANZAC division was only a small part of the operation, but that small part was a VERY significant proportion of ANZAC troops that sailed for Europe. It was at Gallipoli that Australia and New Zealand both achieved Nationhood.
Britain suffered more than twice as many dead than the combined totals of Australia and New Zealand and even France suffered more casualties than Australia. However, we have forgotten, while Australia and New Zealand still remember.

The casualty figures shown on the Australian government web site are not in fact casualty figures at all. They record only the dead: an additional 97,000 Allies and 251,000 Ottoman soldiers were wounded.

Having been a friend and guest of the RAR, I for one won't forget. A banner hung across Changi Village high street one April day long ago, proclaiming:

"ANZAC Day Festival. Selarang Barracks on Saturday. Everybody welcome. Even Pommies can come!"

Aye, the Aussies and Kiwis know how to remember their fallen properly.
Good on yer.

[Brian Abraham]

over 80,000 casualties were inflicted on British and French troops at Gallipoli, yet their contribution - which was no less heroic, or indeed no less misguided - has been largely airbrushed from history as the mythology of the ANZAC spirit grows

Cumbrian - I see Blacksheep beat me while I was putting this together. The reason we make something of a deal of it may be explained by the following. Some see it as when Australia became a nation.

From http://www.anzacday.org.au/history/w...homefront.html

The landing at Gallipoli was a major event in the war. Even though the Gallipoli campaign was a military defeat, it helped to provide Australians with a new sense of their identity and place in the world. One reason is the fact that the landing was a separate action in the war. It was not swallowed up in the general war news. People in Australia knew their boys were training for their ‘baptism of fire’ and when it came the Australians were an identifiable body of troops. So what happened was able to be isolated and analysed as an action by Australians.
The reporting of the landing also influenced people’s reactions to the event. The glowing tribute of the British war correspondent Ellis Ashmead-Bartlett gave the achievement an authenticity -- here was someone who should know who was making such a positive and favourable judgement. Another reason for the reaction in Australia is the possibility that most people in Australia had some connection with the men of the first AIF who landed at Gallipoli. Death notices on the first anniversary were sent not only by parents, husbands, sisters and sons and daughters -- but also friends, cousins, work mates, fellow church members, and families of soldier mates. The ripples of those directly affected by the landing spread throughout much of Australian society.
Australia had been a nation for just 14 years, and there was an uncertainty about how they would measure up as a race against the people who had founded them, the British. There was also a belief in society that war was a testing ground for individual and national character. Australians had been brought up on the glories of British military exploits. They were now part of that picture, and were able to match themselves against the best in the ultimate test. In the words of one contemporary, ‘They had been tested, and not found wanting’. So Gallipoli was a great sigh of relief that the test had been passed, an affirmation of their national worth.
In the 1970s and 1980s in particular some commentators challenged the strength or relevance of the ANZAC legend, arguing that it had little relevance to women, to a multicultural Australia, and to an era when a military heritage was tarnished by widespread anti-Vietnam War feeling. Such criticism seems to miss the point. The ANZAC legend does not have to mean that any individual could be an ANZAC, but that the ANZACs represented the values and behaviour and qualities of the whole society -- and the ANZAC qualities of bravery, perseverance, mateship, determination and all the other positive aspects that can be found in the story are still what we would show if we were tested again.

Kemal Atatürk was commander of the 19th Division, the main reserve of the Turkish Fifth Army, and was on hand to oppose the landing in April. In 1923 he became the first President of Turkey.

In 1934 Atatürk wrote a tribute to those killed at Gallipoli and is inscribed on a Memorial at Anzac Cove (the cove was renamed by the Turkish Government at the request of the ANZACS from the original Ari Burnu)

THOSE HEROES THAT SHED THEIR BLOOD
AND LOST THEIR LIVES... YOU ARE
NOW LYING IN THE SOIL OF A FRIENDLY
COUNTRY. THEREFORE REST IN PEACE.
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE
JOHNNIES AND MEHMETS TO US
WHERE THEY LIE SIDE BY SIDE HERE IN
THIS COUNTRY OF OURS... YOU, THE
MOTHERS, WHO SENT THEIR SONS FROM
FARAWAY COUNTRIES WIPE AWAY YOUR
TEARS; YOUR SONS ARE NOW LYING IN
OUR BOSOM AND ARE IN PEACE. AFTER
HAVING LOST THEIR LIVES ON THIS LAND
THEY HAVE BECOME OUR SONS AS WELL.

The Turks had great respect for their foe at Gallipoli, as did the allied soldiers for the Turks. Not often you see such a statesman like acknowledgement.

[Samuel]

True, the Anzac casualties at Galilpoli were less that those of the UK, but not in per capita terms.In human terms the cost of WWI to New Zealand was horrendous. Between 1914-1918 out of a population of 1 million nearly 17 000 men - 1 in 65 of the population did not return from the war. The total NZ casualties in the war represented one in 17 of the population. The casualties at Gallipoli were 33 000, including 8000 New Zealanders and 7000 Australians. Out of 10 000 Kiwis who fought at Gallipoli 3000 lost their lives and 5000 were wounded.

I think it also relevant to note that Anzac Day is, today, a celebration of the dead of all wars, in a manner similar to Armistice Day in the UK. The range and ages of ex-service people turning up to the Dawn Parade in Wellington is amazing.

I love it, and drink far too much far too early in the day!

[Brian Abraham]

Dug out some stats on WW1 casualties. In order New Zealand 1 per 13.7 head of population, Great Britain 1 per 18.17 and Australia 1 per 18.96.