The reaction of the British captives to the Iranians
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The reaction of the British captives to the Iranians
Firstly, I would say that, no, I do not KNOW how I would react when put in the same situation as these sailors and marines and I don't start the thread in an attempt to bash or belittle them.
At the same time though I have to say that I am surprised that not one of them refused to participate in the Iranian's pathetic attempts to embarrass both them and the UK as a nation. None of them refused a change of clothes in order to stay in their own uniform, nor refused to wear a scarf (!) nor refused to acknowledge that they believed themselves to be acting properly in the execution of their duties.
I found the captain's (I think) conversation with Ahmedinejad particularly obsequious and not befitting a British serviceman being held against his and his country's will.
I honestly don't think that it is wrong to expect some gumption sometimes-at least form the more senior guys. I just found watching the news bulletins a bit embarrassing.
At the same time though I have to say that I am surprised that not one of them refused to participate in the Iranian's pathetic attempts to embarrass both them and the UK as a nation. None of them refused a change of clothes in order to stay in their own uniform, nor refused to wear a scarf (!) nor refused to acknowledge that they believed themselves to be acting properly in the execution of their duties.
I found the captain's (I think) conversation with Ahmedinejad particularly obsequious and not befitting a British serviceman being held against his and his country's will.
I honestly don't think that it is wrong to expect some gumption sometimes-at least form the more senior guys. I just found watching the news bulletins a bit embarrassing.
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Oh how bloody precious,
If you think you found it embarrassing, sat in your comfy chair, horlicks in hand pontificating in such an uncomfortable manner imagine how bloody awful it must have been for each one of those brave folk knowing their only hope of freedom was to play along with this feckin circus
JHFC words almost fail me
If you think you found it embarrassing, sat in your comfy chair, horlicks in hand pontificating in such an uncomfortable manner imagine how bloody awful it must have been for each one of those brave folk knowing their only hope of freedom was to play along with this feckin circus
JHFC words almost fail me
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Set18, with the greatest of respect you have absolutely no idea what the captives were told or how they were treated. Therefore your opinion makes no sense..
Please understand that the day to day reality of captives in this situation is created by their captors, even down to when its day and night.
There are dozens of scenarios where the captives could be made to sing like canaries, for example, they may have been told that the British Government had made full admissions about their culpability, apologised to Iran and begged it's forgiveness.
They could have been told that Britain had abandoned and disowned them and that they were facing twenty year jail terms.
They could have been told that the British had rioted in support of the Iranians and Blair had resigned in disgrace over the matter.
There is an almost endless set of such scenarios, and thats without any physical coercion.....and now I'll shut up.
Please understand that the day to day reality of captives in this situation is created by their captors, even down to when its day and night.
There are dozens of scenarios where the captives could be made to sing like canaries, for example, they may have been told that the British Government had made full admissions about their culpability, apologised to Iran and begged it's forgiveness.
They could have been told that Britain had abandoned and disowned them and that they were facing twenty year jail terms.
They could have been told that the British had rioted in support of the Iranians and Blair had resigned in disgrace over the matter.
There is an almost endless set of such scenarios, and thats without any physical coercion.....and now I'll shut up.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Trying to be slightly less emotional (but understandably so), unless you are familiar with Conduct after Capture or Resistance to Interrogation techniques, it's probably better not to comment at all on those matters. Regardless of what training these personnel had or had not received, those in the know realize exactly what they are going through and why they are behaving the way they are. Just accept it and don't be a Sun reader.
If only ....
.... Blair had resigned in disgrace over the matter.
That's probably what they had just been told to make them react as they did when they were filmed cheering and hugging each other!
More seriously, very glad they are to be freed and very amused by Blair's obvious discomfiture outside No 10.
Jack
That's probably what they had just been told to make them react as they did when they were filmed cheering and hugging each other!
More seriously, very glad they are to be freed and very amused by Blair's obvious discomfiture outside No 10.
Jack
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Set,
I've often gone through what they may have done in my mind but the bottom line is this - WTF do I know! I wasn't there. I believe their position at the time was that when captured they were facing an enemy better armed and equipped and there is no disgrace in surrendering in that situation. And when in captivity, they may have decided to do everything possible not to further inflame the situation. Remember they were not POW's - This one had to be handled by the diplomats. In my opinion they all handled the whole sorry affair with professionalism and dignity.
PS - I think your posting is a wee bit unfair and abraisive
I've often gone through what they may have done in my mind but the bottom line is this - WTF do I know! I wasn't there. I believe their position at the time was that when captured they were facing an enemy better armed and equipped and there is no disgrace in surrendering in that situation. And when in captivity, they may have decided to do everything possible not to further inflame the situation. Remember they were not POW's - This one had to be handled by the diplomats. In my opinion they all handled the whole sorry affair with professionalism and dignity.
PS - I think your posting is a wee bit unfair and abraisive
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Well, I did start by saying that I was not condemning these people.
I DO have a lot of R to I training, thank you. I have also served for a long times in the Middle East and have encountered the Arab "hospitality" along the way.
I do accept everything that contributors have said about what they might have been told; SO DO THEY...I remain disappointed than none of them refused to capitulate. Servicemen and women are told in no uncertain terms about what awaits them when they go to that part of the world.
I would have thought that even a basic knowledge of current affairs would have told these guys that there was nothing that the Iranians could have done to them without incurring the world and his wife's ire. I would have thought that this might have convinced them of the unlikelihood of it occurring.
So, Sledomfitforpurpose and Tam, I am not "pontificating" or "Sitting in my comfy chair" I have been there, many times as it happens. This is a military forum. I have been in several scenarios that could be judged to be more dangerous than theirs. Admittedly, never with their particular outcome, but very dangerous nonetheless. I have never read the Sun (I do sometimes look at the pictures though!)
I DO have a lot of R to I training, thank you. I have also served for a long times in the Middle East and have encountered the Arab "hospitality" along the way.
I do accept everything that contributors have said about what they might have been told; SO DO THEY...I remain disappointed than none of them refused to capitulate. Servicemen and women are told in no uncertain terms about what awaits them when they go to that part of the world.
I would have thought that even a basic knowledge of current affairs would have told these guys that there was nothing that the Iranians could have done to them without incurring the world and his wife's ire. I would have thought that this might have convinced them of the unlikelihood of it occurring.
So, Sledomfitforpurpose and Tam, I am not "pontificating" or "Sitting in my comfy chair" I have been there, many times as it happens. This is a military forum. I have been in several scenarios that could be judged to be more dangerous than theirs. Admittedly, never with their particular outcome, but very dangerous nonetheless. I have never read the Sun (I do sometimes look at the pictures though!)
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Two's in makes an excellent point.
Namely that you have little or no idea of what you're talking about.
I hope that you are journo filth fishing for something to self justify your continued use of the planets oxygen. If you are in the military then please avail yourself of the mess Webley.
Resisting your captors for no reason other than some armchair warrior wants you to make them feel better by association is, like you, stupid.
Who the fcuk are you to decide what is befitting behaviour for someone in a situation you freely admit to knowing nothing about. You're not even sure of the rank of one of them in question.
If you know nothing, say nothing.
Namely that you have little or no idea of what you're talking about.
I hope that you are journo filth fishing for something to self justify your continued use of the planets oxygen. If you are in the military then please avail yourself of the mess Webley.
Resisting your captors for no reason other than some armchair warrior wants you to make them feel better by association is, like you, stupid.
Who the fcuk are you to decide what is befitting behaviour for someone in a situation you freely admit to knowing nothing about. You're not even sure of the rank of one of them in question.
If you know nothing, say nothing.
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Well lets do the scores shall we? Deaths -nil. Wars started - nil. Detained personnel on the way home - 15. Countries with lightly-miffed pride - 1. Probably the best result we could hope for in the situation. Until the facts become clearer, it is premature and, frankly, offensive to start bandying about blame either at the party or,as some have done, those in theatre in support.
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Im immensely relieved that we've got those sailors and marines out, and without firing a shot either. Could have gone much, much worse...
Lets just hope that the RN's Rules of Engagement, and the boundary definition of Irans waters, are clarified to try and avoid this in the future...
Lets just hope that the RN's Rules of Engagement, and the boundary definition of Irans waters, are clarified to try and avoid this in the future...
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Our lads (and girly) are free and come home with a Borat suit and GLC tracksuit each. That really is a gift to the West.
Fantastic news that they're out and looking forward to the debrief. Hopefully they weren't treated quite as badly as last time. They all have a great bar story to tell and the Lt and Capt have an excuse to wear terylene in the Mess.
Fantastic news that they're out and looking forward to the debrief. Hopefully they weren't treated quite as badly as last time. They all have a great bar story to tell and the Lt and Capt have an excuse to wear terylene in the Mess.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Fantastic news that they're out
BBC: ......The Foreign Office confirmed on Wednesday night that the crew were in good health, but were "still with the Iranians". They are expected to be formally handed over to the British embassy early on Thursday.
How do we know they were not instructed - if held as 'guests' of the Iranians because of some eventuality - to act as pleasant as possible. Surely (as we are not at war with Iran) it would make sense to do anything possible to avoid doing anything to inflame the situation? For themselves at least it would make sense to show good manners....for the country and the situation in that part of the world at the moment and with respect to all the other services having to operate in that area it wouldn't be the wisest move to cause things to kick off would it?
Nice image isn't it - the stoic Tommy / Jack Tar whatever, bloodied and bandaged refusing to play the part in the Nazi propaganda - marching into captivity unbowed and giving a surreptitious victory sign....
The reality is winding up the Iranians isn't clever and we live in times where the enemy is not necessarily a guy in a black shirt sporting a swastika.
It's long past 'Don't tell them Pike' unfortunately and a little more cleverness is needed. I'm glad they are going back and safe.
Nice image isn't it - the stoic Tommy / Jack Tar whatever, bloodied and bandaged refusing to play the part in the Nazi propaganda - marching into captivity unbowed and giving a surreptitious victory sign....
The reality is winding up the Iranians isn't clever and we live in times where the enemy is not necessarily a guy in a black shirt sporting a swastika.
It's long past 'Don't tell them Pike' unfortunately and a little more cleverness is needed. I'm glad they are going back and safe.
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Iran's Diplomatic Coup:
In the eyes of the world nothing short of brilliant. The Iranians seem to have embraced "absit invidia" which in diplomatic speak amounts to Iran ten United Kingdom zero.
James
James
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What utter cr@p Mr Leite! No apology forthcoming from Britain and Iran realised they couldn't justify detaining these fifteen sailors any longer.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Let it lie....
The UK is not at war with Iran, it is not even, at a national level, in conflict with Iran.
Iran is, at many levels, in conflict within itself. Whilst the Revolutionary Guard and the religious fundamentalists ma wish conflict, the rest do not. Strangely, a recent poll showed more in Iran in favour of the USA than in Egypt, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia etc...
The facile may be believe we lost face, the reports from inside even Iran I have seen show that even their own populace show we have not, they blame their own extremists.
I repeat, let it lie, especially in response to trolls.....
The UK is not at war with Iran, it is not even, at a national level, in conflict with Iran.
Iran is, at many levels, in conflict within itself. Whilst the Revolutionary Guard and the religious fundamentalists ma wish conflict, the rest do not. Strangely, a recent poll showed more in Iran in favour of the USA than in Egypt, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia etc...
The facile may be believe we lost face, the reports from inside even Iran I have seen show that even their own populace show we have not, they blame their own extremists.
I repeat, let it lie, especially in response to trolls.....
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
BBC: British sailors on their way home
The 15 Royal Navy crew held captive by Iran are flying home after being freed by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as a "gift" to the UK. They left Tehran Airport at about 0800 local time (0530 BST) on a British Airways flight bound for Heathrow.
The 15 Royal Navy crew held captive by Iran are flying home after being freed by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as a "gift" to the UK. They left Tehran Airport at about 0800 local time (0530 BST) on a British Airways flight bound for Heathrow.