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AOC 1 Group

Old 28th Mar 2007, 19:33
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AOC 1 Group

Is it true that AOC 1 Gp stood in front of the crews at a recent CQWI course and asked them if any of them did not think it unreasonable for him to order them to fly their aircraft into the ground in order to destroy a vehicle carrying a Taleban commander?
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Old 28th Mar 2007, 20:06
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More importantly, I do hope someone put their hand up.
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Old 28th Mar 2007, 20:09
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Depends on who supplied the intelligence .....
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Old 28th Mar 2007, 20:23
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Eggs Benedick

.... asked them if any of them did not think it unreasonable ....

If I understand correctly the point you wish to convey, methinks some editing may be required to your original post - two negatives and all that sort of thing?

Jack

PS I think (note no "not") it extremely unreasonable, unless of course the AOC were prepared to lead by example!
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Old 28th Mar 2007, 20:24
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I suppose it is not unreasonable for him to order it. It may be unreasonable for him to order it and expect it to be done!
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Old 28th Mar 2007, 21:44
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Some may not like the man, but I have never seen an individual who can stand up in front of a group of officers and speak with clarity and insight on the subject of "Leadership" for an hour and a half. All without notes.

OK, he's a harrier pilot, so supressed ego may not be his problem, but IMHO, he's one of the the most inspirational and intelligent AOCs we've had for a long time.
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Old 28th Mar 2007, 21:49
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He may be that - but I don't actually see the Groups adding any value whatsoever to our efforts. They seem to be a bit of a 'self-licking lollipop' and, in a couple of years being around them, I have seen nowt to write home about.
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Old 29th Mar 2007, 11:13
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There is an interesting debate to be had, even if the anectdote is without foundation:
- Would such an order be a legal order under military law and UK domestic law? Would refusal to follow such an order breach military law?
- What about the moral component? We recall the Battle of Britain pilot who rammed a German bomber apparently targeting Buckingham Palace, and who thankfully survived to tell the tale. Would a Taleban commander really inspire a similar intervention? Would this be worth a similar self-sacrifice?
- Strategy. Is this the best way to achieve a war aim? Humans and vehicles move at predictable speeds and could be bombed later, estimating their movements if required.
- Scenario. Would this be the Scarlet Pimpernel himself, Mr Bin Laden? Or would this be some other figure, of whatever importance but presumably replacable (as indeed Mr B-L may well be). Would there be credible intelligence suggesting that the commander was controlling an imminent WMD threat? (Hmm, we've heard that before!)
- Airframes and aircrew recruitment, selection, training and death benefits are not cheap. Would this be an appropriate use of equipment and personnel?
- Perhaps most fundamentally, leadership. I would expect that a good leader and commander would only issue orders when he or she would be confident of obedience. If the order was not obeyed, what reflection on the commander's leadership? What about the leadership above the commander - at the political level?
If the anectdote is true, perhaps the 2* was trying to generate such a debate.
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Old 29th Mar 2007, 12:33
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Double negatives are so much fun...
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Old 29th Mar 2007, 13:39
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The correct answer would have been: "I would follow you anywhere, sir!"
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Old 29th Mar 2007, 13:48
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Knowing him, he would just eject beside them, walk up to them, and punch them into oblivion (after politely introducing himself first)..., not only for being the enemy, but for not being good enough to to be Harrier pilots.

SMT
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Old 29th Mar 2007, 14:27
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I suppose that if you don't have a gun on the jet, then nutting them is a viable option.
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Old 29th Mar 2007, 14:54
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Well...

I was there, and there was a huge amount of shock at what he said. A true "Black Adder" moment.... Baaaahhhhhhhh
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Old 29th Mar 2007, 15:03
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fly their aircraft into the ground in order to destroy a vehicle carrying a Taleban commander?
What was the Taleban commander doing in the aircraft in the first place?
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Old 29th Mar 2007, 15:06
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Is this the same AOC 1 Group that sat most of his operational career sat in a QRA bunker waiting for the war to start, whilst spending GW1 and 2 in the CAOC?

Not digging, genuine question....
 
Old 29th Mar 2007, 18:08
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mbga9pgf,
What would a Harrier mate be doing on QRA?

Wrong bloke I fear.......
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Old 30th Mar 2007, 09:39
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ok, maybe not Q, but certainly waiting in a bunker waiting for the war to start... its not as if he went up against a credible threat in a frame any time in his life?

Or have I got the wrong bloke?
 
Old 30th Mar 2007, 10:35
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So what did he actually say?
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Old 30th Mar 2007, 11:24
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mbga9pgf

Seems to me you're saying that any VSO who has not flown Ops is a waste of space?
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Old 30th Mar 2007, 11:49
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I suppose a reasonable return question might have been that given it is peace time, would the said AOC have been prepared to authorise a deliberate crash.
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