AOC 1 Group
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Joined: Jan 2005
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From: london
AOC 1 Group
Is it true that AOC 1 Gp stood in front of the crews at a recent CQWI course and asked them if any of them did not think it unreasonable for him to order them to fly their aircraft into the ground in order to destroy a vehicle carrying a Taleban commander?
Joined: Jan 2007
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From: Location: Location!
Eggs Benedick
.... asked them if any of them did not think it unreasonable ....
If I understand correctly the point you wish to convey, methinks some editing may be required to your original post - two negatives and all that sort of thing?
Jack
PS I think (note no "not") it extremely unreasonable, unless of course the AOC were prepared to lead by example!
If I understand correctly the point you wish to convey, methinks some editing may be required to your original post - two negatives and all that sort of thing?
Jack
PS I think (note no "not") it extremely unreasonable, unless of course the AOC were prepared to lead by example!
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Their Target for Tonight
Some may not like the man, but I have never seen an individual who can stand up in front of a group of officers and speak with clarity and insight on the subject of "Leadership" for an hour and a half. All without notes.
OK, he's a harrier pilot, so supressed ego may not be his problem, but IMHO, he's one of the the most inspirational and intelligent AOCs we've had for a long time.
OK, he's a harrier pilot, so supressed ego may not be his problem, but IMHO, he's one of the the most inspirational and intelligent AOCs we've had for a long time.
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: in my combat underpants
He may be that - but I don't actually see the Groups adding any value whatsoever to our efforts. They seem to be a bit of a 'self-licking lollipop' and, in a couple of years being around them, I have seen nowt to write home about.
Joined: May 2004
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From: Up North
There is an interesting debate to be had, even if the anectdote is without foundation:
- Would such an order be a legal order under military law and UK domestic law? Would refusal to follow such an order breach military law?
- What about the moral component? We recall the Battle of Britain pilot who rammed a German bomber apparently targeting Buckingham Palace, and who thankfully survived to tell the tale. Would a Taleban commander really inspire a similar intervention? Would this be worth a similar self-sacrifice?
- Strategy. Is this the best way to achieve a war aim? Humans and vehicles move at predictable speeds and could be bombed later, estimating their movements if required.
- Scenario. Would this be the Scarlet Pimpernel himself, Mr Bin Laden? Or would this be some other figure, of whatever importance but presumably replacable (as indeed Mr B-L may well be). Would there be credible intelligence suggesting that the commander was controlling an imminent WMD threat? (Hmm, we've heard that before!)
- Airframes and aircrew recruitment, selection, training and death benefits are not cheap. Would this be an appropriate use of equipment and personnel?
- Perhaps most fundamentally, leadership. I would expect that a good leader and commander would only issue orders when he or she would be confident of obedience. If the order was not obeyed, what reflection on the commander's leadership? What about the leadership above the commander - at the political level?
If the anectdote is true, perhaps the 2* was trying to generate such a debate.
- Would such an order be a legal order under military law and UK domestic law? Would refusal to follow such an order breach military law?
- What about the moral component? We recall the Battle of Britain pilot who rammed a German bomber apparently targeting Buckingham Palace, and who thankfully survived to tell the tale. Would a Taleban commander really inspire a similar intervention? Would this be worth a similar self-sacrifice?
- Strategy. Is this the best way to achieve a war aim? Humans and vehicles move at predictable speeds and could be bombed later, estimating their movements if required.
- Scenario. Would this be the Scarlet Pimpernel himself, Mr Bin Laden? Or would this be some other figure, of whatever importance but presumably replacable (as indeed Mr B-L may well be). Would there be credible intelligence suggesting that the commander was controlling an imminent WMD threat? (Hmm, we've heard that before!)
- Airframes and aircrew recruitment, selection, training and death benefits are not cheap. Would this be an appropriate use of equipment and personnel?
- Perhaps most fundamentally, leadership. I would expect that a good leader and commander would only issue orders when he or she would be confident of obedience. If the order was not obeyed, what reflection on the commander's leadership? What about the leadership above the commander - at the political level?
If the anectdote is true, perhaps the 2* was trying to generate such a debate.
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: 250 ft agl
Knowing him, he would just eject beside them, walk up to them, and punch them into oblivion (after politely introducing himself first)..., not only for being the enemy, but for not being good enough to to be Harrier pilots.
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