AOC 1 Group
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 801
Likes: 0
From: Up North
The debate has certainly picked up since the Scum lifted it without acknowledgment.
It is a good debate, obviously crashing a perfectly good aircraft (not one of ours surely?) into a target is an extreme scenario. Possibly not if it was the only way to avoid a mass loss of life or to acheive an overriding strategic aim. The WW2 examples of such self-sacrifice are inspirational and heroic. However I do not think the comparison is valid with ops occuring nowadays.
Such self-sacrifice requires inspiration in turn - a just cause or a moral imperative, as well as confidence in credible leadership and in the esprit de corps. I think that - short of a 9/11 type attack on a major UK city - such inspiration does not exist with regard to our operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. Such an order would not be likely to be obeyed. Our troops (etc) are fighting in a morally dubious war with little confidence in a just cause, any moral imperative, political leadership, military management and public support.
It is a good debate, obviously crashing a perfectly good aircraft (not one of ours surely?) into a target is an extreme scenario. Possibly not if it was the only way to avoid a mass loss of life or to acheive an overriding strategic aim. The WW2 examples of such self-sacrifice are inspirational and heroic. However I do not think the comparison is valid with ops occuring nowadays.
Such self-sacrifice requires inspiration in turn - a just cause or a moral imperative, as well as confidence in credible leadership and in the esprit de corps. I think that - short of a 9/11 type attack on a major UK city - such inspiration does not exist with regard to our operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. Such an order would not be likely to be obeyed. Our troops (etc) are fighting in a morally dubious war with little confidence in a just cause, any moral imperative, political leadership, military management and public support.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Joined: Dec 2002
Aviation Qualifications: Military (Retired)
Posts: 16,700
Likes: 54
From: Lincolnshire
Anyone seen the brilliant news coverage on BBC at 6?
The GR1 Fighter and an AOC who seemed to have had a massive face lift. I didn't recognise him.
The GR1 Fighter and an AOC who seemed to have had a massive face lift. I didn't recognise him.
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,114
Likes: 1,088
From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
I always associated Kamikazee pilots with the last, desperate efforts of the stalwarts of a dying empire, who had realised they could never win. So.... 
Sorry, I just had a vision of a white van full of headbands driving towards number ten, Don't know what came over me......
Sorry, I just had a vision of a white van full of headbands driving towards number ten, Don't know what came over me......
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 958
Likes: 20
From: The Luberon
Things to start you worrying.
You drive onto base and the gate guards bow instead of saluting
They address you as “San” instead of “Sir”
You go to the Mess for a bite to eat and are offered Sushi or Tempura
Your Mess bill is handed to you although it is the middle of the month
When you get to the crew room everyone wants to shake your hand
You ask to see the Form700 and are told not to bother
As you walk out to the flightline you notice you have been allocated the oldest, highest hours aircraft
Someone has painted a large red Rising Sun on the tail
The ground crew insist on tying a white silk ribbon round your bone dome
On climbing in you discover the ejector seat pins have been superglued into their slots
You look in the mirrors and cannot help noticing that the navigator is being extremely diligent with his strap in checks
On starting up you notice the tanks are only half full
When taxiing out all the ground crew line up and give you “Banzai’s”
After take off you contact Fighter Control and hear gentle sobbing in the background
You drive onto base and the gate guards bow instead of saluting
They address you as “San” instead of “Sir”
You go to the Mess for a bite to eat and are offered Sushi or Tempura
Your Mess bill is handed to you although it is the middle of the month
When you get to the crew room everyone wants to shake your hand
You ask to see the Form700 and are told not to bother
As you walk out to the flightline you notice you have been allocated the oldest, highest hours aircraft
Someone has painted a large red Rising Sun on the tail
The ground crew insist on tying a white silk ribbon round your bone dome
On climbing in you discover the ejector seat pins have been superglued into their slots
You look in the mirrors and cannot help noticing that the navigator is being extremely diligent with his strap in checks
On starting up you notice the tanks are only half full
When taxiing out all the ground crew line up and give you “Banzai’s”
After take off you contact Fighter Control and hear gentle sobbing in the background
Joined: Jul 2003
Aviation Qualifications: Military (Retired)
Posts: 2,692
Likes: 1,532
From: Near the coast
Theprior
Calm down buddy.
I think it's blatantly obvious that the papers have got all their info from this very website! The BBC report even directly quotes it as opinions expressed on the pilots website PPRUNE. It's just a shame none of the others had the decency to do the same.
I'm pretty sure that no-one went running to any papers.
What it does highlight however is that every journo and news reporter, when looking for aviation related scoops, looks straight away to this site for his 'insider knowledge'. Maybe the point here is to be careful what you write on this site. It seems to me if this thread had never been started, then none of this would have ever come to light!
Doh.
BV
I think it's blatantly obvious that the papers have got all their info from this very website! The BBC report even directly quotes it as opinions expressed on the pilots website PPRUNE. It's just a shame none of the others had the decency to do the same.
I'm pretty sure that no-one went running to any papers.
What it does highlight however is that every journo and news reporter, when looking for aviation related scoops, looks straight away to this site for his 'insider knowledge'. Maybe the point here is to be careful what you write on this site. It seems to me if this thread had never been started, then none of this would have ever come to light!
Doh.
BV
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 887
Likes: 0
From: UK
Nicely put, siti, and true, Bob
I don't think that intelligent people like QWIs need to have their consciences pricked by some air rank self-inflating ego, or ARSE. If something like this had to be done it would come from within the person at the moment, as it has many times in the past, and not from an order - insinuated or otherwise. If you're not careful it won't be long before pre-mediated suicide becomes an acceptable option, as it is in other cultures, and you will soon find it in your tactics manuals - probably as The Walker Option.
I don't think that intelligent people like QWIs need to have their consciences pricked by some air rank self-inflating ego, or ARSE. If something like this had to be done it would come from within the person at the moment, as it has many times in the past, and not from an order - insinuated or otherwise. If you're not careful it won't be long before pre-mediated suicide becomes an acceptable option, as it is in other cultures, and you will soon find it in your tactics manuals - probably as The Walker Option.
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
From: Clouseau's apartment block
A good point Bob. However, was it really a bad thing that this sort of debate was aired? With a public that is increasingly out of touch with the military perhaps raising such an issue - however odious that most of us find this particular subject - might help to get the public to consider the issues at stake during 2 significant conflicts.
I personally find the suggestion ludicrous and the way that the question was posed at the Conference (according to one of the senior guys present, I wasn't there) does sound inappropriate and reveals a rather arrogant attitude. Par for the course perhaps. I'm not surprised that there was a stunned silence. Nonetheless, at least some of the news coverage did attempt to tackle some of the wider moral issues at stake and provoked some thought amongst some of the apathetic public. Some good may therefore have come from it, I believe.
I personally find the suggestion ludicrous and the way that the question was posed at the Conference (according to one of the senior guys present, I wasn't there) does sound inappropriate and reveals a rather arrogant attitude. Par for the course perhaps. I'm not surprised that there was a stunned silence. Nonetheless, at least some of the news coverage did attempt to tackle some of the wider moral issues at stake and provoked some thought amongst some of the apathetic public. Some good may therefore have come from it, I believe.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,453
Likes: 210
From: Location: Location!
It seems to me if this thread had never been started, then none of this would have ever come to light!
But then again, perhaps it is just as well that it did, so that those of you most likely to be involved now know exactly what is expected of you by your "leaders"!
Jack
PS Isn't Bob Viking's quote at *** above what this forum is all about?
But then again, perhaps it is just as well that it did, so that those of you most likely to be involved now know exactly what is expected of you by your "leaders"!
Jack
PS Isn't Bob Viking's quote at *** above what this forum is all about?
