Lean and/or Pulse. Are they producing the goods?
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Lean and/or Pulse. Are they producing the goods?
Is your fleet affected?
Have these 'new' engineering principles increased availability of your type?
What other impacts have these principles had?
Are the engineers happier in this environment?
Lots of questions I know but a genuine desire to get to the bottom of whether it is helping or not.
HEDP
Have these 'new' engineering principles increased availability of your type?
What other impacts have these principles had?
Are the engineers happier in this environment?
Lots of questions I know but a genuine desire to get to the bottom of whether it is helping or not.
HEDP
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I wanna tell you a story.......
...But more to the point WHO told all those SAC (Technicians) that they had the same skill sets at time served FT's and JT's. That is where all this Lean/Jump was/is failing...in the basic skill sets of the mechanics.....still it saves a bob or two.
All my 2p's worth, not like I have experienced any of this at all......
MoJo
All my 2p's worth, not like I have experienced any of this at all......
MoJo
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HEDP,
You know you are fishing - certainly from our own experience at Wattashame as they are all pulsing down through the line with bits missing and then having to re-enter back at the original points to have the bits missing fitted
Ah, but to get to the bits that need fitting they then have to remove the bits done further down the line in order to retrofit the original bits missed.
Confused and surprised - go and have a look for yourself - lovely shiney hangar though!
But from the sounds of it Odiham are having as much success or answer B....
You know you are fishing - certainly from our own experience at Wattashame as they are all pulsing down through the line with bits missing and then having to re-enter back at the original points to have the bits missing fitted
Ah, but to get to the bits that need fitting they then have to remove the bits done further down the line in order to retrofit the original bits missed.
Confused and surprised - go and have a look for yourself - lovely shiney hangar though!
But from the sounds of it Odiham are having as much success or answer B....
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Lean is certainly not just an engineering principle and has not been applied just as that. It is a tool for revising your business processes. It can be very good - if applied properly with the proper intentions. However, if it is applied to reduce manpower, that might just be a very shallow reason and not give the intended results.
If applied correctly, the five main principles of LEAN should always as stated above improve business processes. It can also help to identify irreducible spare capacity, the ability to further use commercial exploitation where possible and between the two irradicate waste and also create opportunity to get some money back.
Nivsy
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Having experienced lean in civvy street to quite some depth I feel I can say "THERE IS NO PLACE FOR IT IN MILITARY AVIATION ENGINEERING"
Lean is about increasing productivity, cutting waste, having less WIP, and maximising throughput.
There is bugger all in there about flight safety, best effort engineering, and doing it right. If they wanted an efficient production life for repairing aircraft they shouldn't be losing all the skilled fitters and putting half trained monkeys in place because its cheaper and saves 0.17% on the bottom line of the spreadsheet. The RAF tg 1 and 2 already do a much better job than if they got in a lean consultant to balls it all up !!!
Lean is about increasing productivity, cutting waste, having less WIP, and maximising throughput.
There is bugger all in there about flight safety, best effort engineering, and doing it right. If they wanted an efficient production life for repairing aircraft they shouldn't be losing all the skilled fitters and putting half trained monkeys in place because its cheaper and saves 0.17% on the bottom line of the spreadsheet. The RAF tg 1 and 2 already do a much better job than if they got in a lean consultant to balls it all up !!!
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LEAN 2P RIE
Oops nearly lost in the speak, I must now be assimilated.
From my perspective there is a lot right about looking at your process, working out the constituent parts, and then putting it together in a logical fashion to gain the best most efficient ouput.
The problem we have in the military applying what seems like commonsense is this:
A. LEAN is a total system, to make it work it has to be 100% not piecemeal and should be end to end - ie What are the defence goals of the UK, what do we need... all the way to how many bullets do we need to kill the enemy.
B. When TOYOTA do LEAN they don't argue with the outcome that says you need to spend Ł1.2m or more to make a long term efficiency saving.
C. When TOYOTA do LEAN the top neddies don't say we need to save XX posts during this event.
D. When TOYOTA do LEAN they have a supply chain that can actually deliver components Just In Time rather than Just Too Late or Never at all.
E. TOYOTA don't rob one car on the production line to make another.
In sum a great idea but completely unsuited to a cash strapped MoD with a defence industry that thinks spare parts are something to hold in the repair loop for as long as possible.
So far, I have fully engaged in every event I have been to, and they always illuminate a better process or delivery method; unfortunately we just don't have the wherewithal to apply it.
Si
Oops nearly lost in the speak, I must now be assimilated.
From my perspective there is a lot right about looking at your process, working out the constituent parts, and then putting it together in a logical fashion to gain the best most efficient ouput.
The problem we have in the military applying what seems like commonsense is this:
A. LEAN is a total system, to make it work it has to be 100% not piecemeal and should be end to end - ie What are the defence goals of the UK, what do we need... all the way to how many bullets do we need to kill the enemy.
B. When TOYOTA do LEAN they don't argue with the outcome that says you need to spend Ł1.2m or more to make a long term efficiency saving.
C. When TOYOTA do LEAN the top neddies don't say we need to save XX posts during this event.
D. When TOYOTA do LEAN they have a supply chain that can actually deliver components Just In Time rather than Just Too Late or Never at all.
E. TOYOTA don't rob one car on the production line to make another.
In sum a great idea but completely unsuited to a cash strapped MoD with a defence industry that thinks spare parts are something to hold in the repair loop for as long as possible.
So far, I have fully engaged in every event I have been to, and they always illuminate a better process or delivery method; unfortunately we just don't have the wherewithal to apply it.
Si
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What other impacts have these principles had?
Are the engineers happier in this environment?
Seriously though, there's a thread about it here with some good points on:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=256895
As has been said above, and as is pointed out in post number 2 on the thread I've linked to, it isn't really the LEAN team's fault if a decision had already been made to reduce manpower by so much, and they had to make the best of whatever was left. We definitely are undermanned and underresourced for what we asked to do. However, I think you'll agree that the way everyone seems to end up blaming the poor LEAN team for decisions about manpower that had already been taken, and at a much higher level, was a masterstroke of passing the buck by the top brass!
Dave
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Is your fleet affected?
Yes.
Have these 'new' engineering principles increased availability of your type?
No (but on paper, it's probably "Yes", because they are massaging the figure to make themselves look good)
What other impacts have these principles had?
Shortage of manpower (apparently my trade is 70% overmanned. That must be the reason there's sometimes only my SNEC, me and an AMM on shift)
Are the engineers happier in this environment?
No. That's why the TG1/2 PVR rate has shot through the roof.....
Yes.
Have these 'new' engineering principles increased availability of your type?
No (but on paper, it's probably "Yes", because they are massaging the figure to make themselves look good)
What other impacts have these principles had?
Shortage of manpower (apparently my trade is 70% overmanned. That must be the reason there's sometimes only my SNEC, me and an AMM on shift)
Are the engineers happier in this environment?
No. That's why the TG1/2 PVR rate has shot through the roof.....
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I believe in LEAN, Kaizen, TQM and JIT. These methodologies DO work if the organisation as a whole is committed to them (committed being the key word).
There is a word in the Kaizen method for the incorrect use of the method and it follows these simple principles.
‘Where Kaizen is often misunderstood and applied incorrectly, resulting in bad outcomes including, for example, layoffs. This is called "kaiaku" - literally, "change for the worse." Layoffs are not the intent of kaizen. Instead, kaizen must be practiced in tandem with the "Respect for People" principle. Without "Respect for People," there can be no continuous improvement. Instead, the usual result is one-time gains that quickly fade.’
Anyone notice any similarities there?
There is a word in the Kaizen method for the incorrect use of the method and it follows these simple principles.
‘Where Kaizen is often misunderstood and applied incorrectly, resulting in bad outcomes including, for example, layoffs. This is called "kaiaku" - literally, "change for the worse." Layoffs are not the intent of kaizen. Instead, kaizen must be practiced in tandem with the "Respect for People" principle. Without "Respect for People," there can be no continuous improvement. Instead, the usual result is one-time gains that quickly fade.’
Anyone notice any similarities there?
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In my ever-so-humble opinion (having been 'dicked' for a few LEAN events now at Odious) I believe the over-riding problem with the RAF's application of LEAN is honesty.
Simply put LEAN is being used by the RAF to cut manpower and any changes in working processes/improvements are not as a result of the actual LEAN principles but are as a result of the 'can do' attitude of the personnel who are affected by it.
Of course one of the first things the Squadron Bleeder in charge of the LEAN team says on an event is that "LEAN is not about cutting manpower", yet this is so patiently false. In the RAF's application of it this is all LEAN is about.
But don't worry thpugh, because if you can prove a section is already undermanned by using the '8 hour day equals 5 1/2 productive hours per person' formula that is the cornerstone to their calculations you'll get more personnel right? Will you f$%k.
Simply put LEAN is being used by the RAF to cut manpower and any changes in working processes/improvements are not as a result of the actual LEAN principles but are as a result of the 'can do' attitude of the personnel who are affected by it.
Of course one of the first things the Squadron Bleeder in charge of the LEAN team says on an event is that "LEAN is not about cutting manpower", yet this is so patiently false. In the RAF's application of it this is all LEAN is about.
But don't worry thpugh, because if you can prove a section is already undermanned by using the '8 hour day equals 5 1/2 productive hours per person' formula that is the cornerstone to their calculations you'll get more personnel right? Will you f$%k.
Hellbound
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Yeah, yeah, we have all done 'Lean' to death. Good idea, applied poorly in this environment.
But what about the second half of the question - the 'Pulse' bit. How is that working?
From my perspective, again Pulse is one of those things that works really well in civvie street and on production lines where ALL the spares are ready to go and the condition of each item being made is known. The problem in the military is that we don't have the spares and this can lead to holes and this can completely bu**er up the pulse as suggested in one of the messages above. Additionally, there are virtually no aircraft types that can accurately predict the condition of the aircraft entering pulse, there can only be a rough idea of how much arising work is going to be found and again this impacts the pulse.
Pulse is a very effective way of doing things if you know exactly what it is you are going to do and you have everything to hand to do it - we have neither.
But what about the second half of the question - the 'Pulse' bit. How is that working?
From my perspective, again Pulse is one of those things that works really well in civvie street and on production lines where ALL the spares are ready to go and the condition of each item being made is known. The problem in the military is that we don't have the spares and this can lead to holes and this can completely bu**er up the pulse as suggested in one of the messages above. Additionally, there are virtually no aircraft types that can accurately predict the condition of the aircraft entering pulse, there can only be a rough idea of how much arising work is going to be found and again this impacts the pulse.
Pulse is a very effective way of doing things if you know exactly what it is you are going to do and you have everything to hand to do it - we have neither.
Lean is an appealing concept. However, lean doesn’t allow for major surges in demand, nor does it take into account the effect that these surges or the lean process itself can have on the very well being and motivation of the people involved.
When problems occur, you end-up spending too much time fire fighting and playing catch-up and any knock-on effect is felt downstream for far too long.
Making nuts and bolts in a fully automated machine shop is an excellent example of how lean can transform production. However, the problem comes when you introduce humans into the lean process, as people can’t work flat-out all the time without being effected.
The Armed Forces is an insurance policy and not suited for ‘just in time delivery’, as such she needs a little fat around the waist.
When problems occur, you end-up spending too much time fire fighting and playing catch-up and any knock-on effect is felt downstream for far too long.
Making nuts and bolts in a fully automated machine shop is an excellent example of how lean can transform production. However, the problem comes when you introduce humans into the lean process, as people can’t work flat-out all the time without being effected.
The Armed Forces is an insurance policy and not suited for ‘just in time delivery’, as such she needs a little fat around the waist.
On some units, lean is also being used to remove equipment and c stores along with manpower reductions, bays that used to be able to service more than one item have had manpower reduced, therefore they cannot service all the kit so why have the spares and test equipment, so lets get rid of that as well.
Pulse line: The aircraft have input meetings that agree the standard of the aircraft at input and the work required by the MOD/customer (Sqd robs outstanding, ADFs, Lims, husbandry entries, mods, EIs etc). This is agreed with due regards to the availability of the spares to carry out all the tasks. What actually happens is the input standard/work to be done is agreed but when the aircraft arrives in the slot the goal posts are moved. At the end of the inspection phase it is obvious that emerging work is an unknown, if this work cannot be carried out within time or through lack of spares a meeting is conducted as an update with the MOD/customer as to the way forward. The first aircraft through any line of servicing sets the standard guidelines for the rest, if this aircarft cannot have holes filled through inability to repair/source parts then the only option is to rob the last one into the pulse line, eventually you could end up with the last couple of aircraft being in bits untill spares become available.
Finally, I thought that the F3 spares recovery programme was releasing lots of spares into the system at the moment, allthough as the F3 fleet is drawn down these spares will dissapear it still means for some time there will be items more available than they have been.
Pulse line: The aircraft have input meetings that agree the standard of the aircraft at input and the work required by the MOD/customer (Sqd robs outstanding, ADFs, Lims, husbandry entries, mods, EIs etc). This is agreed with due regards to the availability of the spares to carry out all the tasks. What actually happens is the input standard/work to be done is agreed but when the aircraft arrives in the slot the goal posts are moved. At the end of the inspection phase it is obvious that emerging work is an unknown, if this work cannot be carried out within time or through lack of spares a meeting is conducted as an update with the MOD/customer as to the way forward. The first aircraft through any line of servicing sets the standard guidelines for the rest, if this aircarft cannot have holes filled through inability to repair/source parts then the only option is to rob the last one into the pulse line, eventually you could end up with the last couple of aircraft being in bits untill spares become available.
Finally, I thought that the F3 spares recovery programme was releasing lots of spares into the system at the moment, allthough as the F3 fleet is drawn down these spares will dissapear it still means for some time there will be items more available than they have been.
Hellbound
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HiLife - Lean is as flexible as we make it. If we consider the need to surge during a Lean event, there is no reason why the capability cannot be kept. Problems occur when it is managed badly, or surge is shrugged off or ignored. The whole thing is soooo frustrating - Lean is a good tool, we just wield it badly...
Sadly this is what you get for allowing personnel time off to do MBAs 
. If they do their own MBA part time and using distance learning (respect to the individual) then it gets worse. My contacts in industry say an MBA is valid for only 3 - 5 years unless you use the teachings on a daily basis and keep up to date with developments. We allow people to do them and then post them into arenas where the teachings are:
a. Not applicable
b. Out-of-date by the time they get in a position to implement them
c Discredited and dumped by industry (just like open plan and RAB)!!
But then persuading someone who has studied long and hard to get an MBA that it is out-of-date is very difficult.
. If they do their own MBA part time and using distance learning (respect to the individual) then it gets worse. My contacts in industry say an MBA is valid for only 3 - 5 years unless you use the teachings on a daily basis and keep up to date with developments. We allow people to do them and then post them into arenas where the teachings are:a. Not applicable
b. Out-of-date by the time they get in a position to implement them
c Discredited and dumped by industry (just like open plan and RAB)!!
But then persuading someone who has studied long and hard to get an MBA that it is out-of-date is very difficult.
Hellbound
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RP
What on earth has this MBA thing got to do with anything?
Identifying waste and best practise should not be criticised. Let us not forget that the money has gone, the posts are going and some people are trying to make sure that the organisation can still operate once the people have left. It is natural to look to other organisations to get ideas about how to survive. The fact that we have then implemented them poorly (in some cases) is the problem.