Australia to sell the Seasprite for spares.....
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Australia to sell the Seasprite for spares.....
I was miffed when the Seasprite turned up on the Oz defence inventory. The Kiwi's have enjoyed the operational service of a more basic version of the platform for a good few years now, whilst the Oz Seasprite project is still a festering mess (lets hope the NH90 doesn't go the same way!).
The latest from Flight International article sums it up!
"Australia is studying the option of selling its 11 Kaman SH-2(G)A Super Seasprite naval helicopters for spares as Canberra prepares to decide on the future of the troubled project, writes Peter La Franchi.
Australian Defence Materiel Organisation (DMO) chief executive Steve Gumley told Senate hearings on 14 February that the returns from selling the aircraft for spares "would be small we are not talking A$500 million [$390 million]". The cost of the programme so far has been A$894 million.
The DMO had planned to spend another A$64 million on the project this year, but has cut this to about A$9 million. Defence budget documents released as part of the Senate hearings reveal that the cut is due to "technical issues encountered during the year, primarily associated with software integration and the automatic flight-control system".
The documents also say that "test flying of a limited number of aircraft will continue in Australia through 2007-8 to resolve the safety issue with the flight-control system and ultimately certify the full-capability configuration".
The Australian government ordered a review of the project cancellation option last year, with Eurocopter and Sikorsky asked to submit proposals for replacement aircraft.
Nine Super Seasprites have been certificated by the Royal Australian Navy, which plans to operate the aircraft from its Anzac-class frigates.
DMO director of naval aviation systems Cdre Mark Campbell told the Senate that on current schedules the lead helicopter would not reach operational capability until 2009-10 and only if the government approves additional funding."
Well done to our fine tuned project teams......
The latest from Flight International article sums it up!
"Australia is studying the option of selling its 11 Kaman SH-2(G)A Super Seasprite naval helicopters for spares as Canberra prepares to decide on the future of the troubled project, writes Peter La Franchi.
Australian Defence Materiel Organisation (DMO) chief executive Steve Gumley told Senate hearings on 14 February that the returns from selling the aircraft for spares "would be small we are not talking A$500 million [$390 million]". The cost of the programme so far has been A$894 million.
The DMO had planned to spend another A$64 million on the project this year, but has cut this to about A$9 million. Defence budget documents released as part of the Senate hearings reveal that the cut is due to "technical issues encountered during the year, primarily associated with software integration and the automatic flight-control system".
The documents also say that "test flying of a limited number of aircraft will continue in Australia through 2007-8 to resolve the safety issue with the flight-control system and ultimately certify the full-capability configuration".
The Australian government ordered a review of the project cancellation option last year, with Eurocopter and Sikorsky asked to submit proposals for replacement aircraft.
Nine Super Seasprites have been certificated by the Royal Australian Navy, which plans to operate the aircraft from its Anzac-class frigates.
DMO director of naval aviation systems Cdre Mark Campbell told the Senate that on current schedules the lead helicopter would not reach operational capability until 2009-10 and only if the government approves additional funding."
Well done to our fine tuned project teams......
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And will DMO heads roll for yet another monumental blunder with taxpayers' funds?
I await with interest the departure of Porcine Squadron from Russell Offices. Given DMOs appalling track record on procurement, with virtually no day of reckoning or accountability, I suspect I might be waiting for quite some time.
I await with interest the departure of Porcine Squadron from Russell Offices. Given DMOs appalling track record on procurement, with virtually no day of reckoning or accountability, I suspect I might be waiting for quite some time.
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Willi....
Have to agree.....
It is so entertaining when you think how the government has to cut corners with so many other issues and yet this 'The Lemon of all Lemons' continues to evolve into a major co*k up!
Duck and weave they will, and in years to come it will be one of those reeeeaaaaallly funny procurement jokes.......
It is so entertaining when you think how the government has to cut corners with so many other issues and yet this 'The Lemon of all Lemons' continues to evolve into a major co*k up!
Duck and weave they will, and in years to come it will be one of those reeeeaaaaallly funny procurement jokes.......
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'The Lemon of all Lemons'
Well, if you bother to actually research, you will find that the real problems have all been solved.
All systems now work fine, and the SeaSprite has a temporary flight clearance because it now meets all of the contracted requirements.
This last issue is simply whether the RAAF will pay for the changes in the flight-control software that are required by the changes in certification requirements that have been made in the last couple of years... after the flight-control software was written, verified, and tested.
The RAAF does not want to pay the 35million $Aus for the last-minute changes... they want Kaman to eat the bill for customer-required changes in system requirements that have nothing to do with what Kaman contracted to provide.
Well, if you bother to actually research, you will find that the real problems have all been solved.
All systems now work fine, and the SeaSprite has a temporary flight clearance because it now meets all of the contracted requirements.
This last issue is simply whether the RAAF will pay for the changes in the flight-control software that are required by the changes in certification requirements that have been made in the last couple of years... after the flight-control software was written, verified, and tested.
The RAAF does not want to pay the 35million $Aus for the last-minute changes... they want Kaman to eat the bill for customer-required changes in system requirements that have nothing to do with what Kaman contracted to provide.
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The RAAF does not want to pay the 35million $Aus for the last-minute changes...
I believe that just removing the pilots leg will enable sufficient cyclic movement to allow the aircraft to fly safely. Seems this would be a lot cheaper than any software mod. That would probably even allow the center console to widen more if needed for future mods. Win Win solution if ever there was one.
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1. I do not work for any company involved in any way with the SeaSprite.
2. I meant RAN, don't know why I typed RAAF.
3. That was 35million $US (45M $Aus)
4. My comments were developed from several recent public statements regarding the situation, but mainly from what was said in this article (posted on another forum, I wish they had included the name of the publication) [I have bolded the sections I was referring to]:
Seasprite program headed for the scrap heap
Patrick Walters, National security editor
February 10, 2007
THE navy's ill-fated Seasprite helicopter program is almost certain to be scrapped after a decade of problems, leaving taxpayers with losses of more than $1 billion.
The Defence Department has recommended that the contract with US manufacturer Kaman Aerospace Corporation be terminated.
And senior government sources say the axe could fall on the project to refurbish the Vietnam-era helicopters as soon as next Wednesday's meeting of federal cabinet's National Security Committee.
The Seasprite helicopters have been dogged by software engineering glitches and airworthiness issues, with the project running more than six years behind schedule.
The twin-engine SG-2G(A) Super Seasprites, equipped with Penguin anti-ship missiles, are designed to operate from the navy's Anzac-class frigates, providing a maritime strike and surveillance capability for the surface fleet.
If the Seasprites are dumped, Defence will buy a new helicopter for the Anzacs, choosing between the US Seahawk, which is already in service with the navy, and the European NH-90, in an investment likely to cost at least $1.5 billion.
The failure of the project will be an embarrassment for the Howard Government, which is extolling its virtues as a superior economic manager against new Labor leader Kevin Rudd.
The Government is expected to counter that it was burdened with the project by the previous Labor government of Paul Keating.
Kaman executives have been in Canberra this week lobbying hard for the retention of the project, arguing that the Seasprites are safe to fly, with only Australian airworthiness certification procedures yet to be met.
But the latest estimate from Defence is that the navy will now not have a fully operational Seasprite squadron until 2010, at the earliest.
The original $667 million contract with Kaman, signed in 1997, called for the supply of 11 helicopters. The one-off project involved fitting a wholly new avionics package designed for the Royal Australian Navy into a 1960s airframe.
Ten of the Seasprites have been delivered to the navy but were grounded last year after concerns about their airworthiness and problems with their flight control systems.
If the project is scrapped, it is likely Defence will attempt to sell the remaining Seasprites.
More than a decade in development and now running six years late, the Seasprite has been one of Defence's most troublesome "legacy projects" - those that originated before the election of the Howard Government in 1996 and before major reforms of the Defence Materiel Organisation, the organisation that manages new equipment purchases.
Defence Minister Brendan Nelson has made no secret of his unhappiness at the state of the Seasprite program and his readiness to consider an alternative solution for the navy.
Dr Nelson met senior Kaman executives in Washington in December to express his concerns at the continuing delays in achieving an operational capability for the navy's Fleet Air Arm.
"The company has failed to understand that they have lost the confidence of the customer," one senior government source told The Weekend Australian.
A decision to scrap the Seasprite would come as a bitter blow to the helicopter's manufacturer, which maintains that all the major hurdles to achieve a fully operational capability have been met.
Kaman estimates that meeting Australia's current airworthiness certification regulations, which fall outside the original contract specification for the Seasprites, will take a further 29 months and cost $US35 million ($45million).
Kaman is confident that it has solved all technical problems associated with the Seasprites' flight control system. This includes the handling glitches in the Seasprite's air data computer before last year's grounding of the machines.
"We have really done all of the testing to this point to convince us that the aircraft meets all of its specified requirements," Kaman Aviation's vice-president of engineering Mike Bowes told The Weekend Australian.
This included bench and flight testing of it and its sensors and weapons systems, including the Penguin anti-ship missile.
"We have just completed an enhancement of the flight control system which the commonwealth asked us to do to allow us to get an interim airworthiness certificate," he said.
Mr Bowes said Kaman had agreed a statement of work with the commonwealth to achieve full air certification by mid-2009.
The additional $US35 million cost will cover further software engineering and installation of additional redundancy in the Seasprites' flight control system as well as new software to comply with regulations.
Kaman is confident it has satisfactorily resolved a list of outstanding concerns presented by Defence last year relating to the performance of the Seasprites. These included the helicopter's performance when it was equipped with the Penguin missile and its stability when the missile was fired.
Dr Nelson has compared the ambition of the program, in which the latest avionics have been incorporated into an older airframe, to trying to put a "2010 motor vehicle into an EH Holden". "If this were a domestic purchase and you had the project in your garage, you would be sitting around your kitchen table with your wife saying, 'Look, do you think we should be continuing with it?"' he told The Weekend Australian last year.
"If it was my money, my project, and it involved my domestic arrangements, I know what I would be doing."
2. I meant RAN, don't know why I typed RAAF.
3. That was 35million $US (45M $Aus)
4. My comments were developed from several recent public statements regarding the situation, but mainly from what was said in this article (posted on another forum, I wish they had included the name of the publication) [I have bolded the sections I was referring to]:
Seasprite program headed for the scrap heap
Patrick Walters, National security editor
February 10, 2007
THE navy's ill-fated Seasprite helicopter program is almost certain to be scrapped after a decade of problems, leaving taxpayers with losses of more than $1 billion.
The Defence Department has recommended that the contract with US manufacturer Kaman Aerospace Corporation be terminated.
And senior government sources say the axe could fall on the project to refurbish the Vietnam-era helicopters as soon as next Wednesday's meeting of federal cabinet's National Security Committee.
The Seasprite helicopters have been dogged by software engineering glitches and airworthiness issues, with the project running more than six years behind schedule.
The twin-engine SG-2G(A) Super Seasprites, equipped with Penguin anti-ship missiles, are designed to operate from the navy's Anzac-class frigates, providing a maritime strike and surveillance capability for the surface fleet.
If the Seasprites are dumped, Defence will buy a new helicopter for the Anzacs, choosing between the US Seahawk, which is already in service with the navy, and the European NH-90, in an investment likely to cost at least $1.5 billion.
The failure of the project will be an embarrassment for the Howard Government, which is extolling its virtues as a superior economic manager against new Labor leader Kevin Rudd.
The Government is expected to counter that it was burdened with the project by the previous Labor government of Paul Keating.
Kaman executives have been in Canberra this week lobbying hard for the retention of the project, arguing that the Seasprites are safe to fly, with only Australian airworthiness certification procedures yet to be met.
But the latest estimate from Defence is that the navy will now not have a fully operational Seasprite squadron until 2010, at the earliest.
The original $667 million contract with Kaman, signed in 1997, called for the supply of 11 helicopters. The one-off project involved fitting a wholly new avionics package designed for the Royal Australian Navy into a 1960s airframe.
Ten of the Seasprites have been delivered to the navy but were grounded last year after concerns about their airworthiness and problems with their flight control systems.
If the project is scrapped, it is likely Defence will attempt to sell the remaining Seasprites.
More than a decade in development and now running six years late, the Seasprite has been one of Defence's most troublesome "legacy projects" - those that originated before the election of the Howard Government in 1996 and before major reforms of the Defence Materiel Organisation, the organisation that manages new equipment purchases.
Defence Minister Brendan Nelson has made no secret of his unhappiness at the state of the Seasprite program and his readiness to consider an alternative solution for the navy.
Dr Nelson met senior Kaman executives in Washington in December to express his concerns at the continuing delays in achieving an operational capability for the navy's Fleet Air Arm.
"The company has failed to understand that they have lost the confidence of the customer," one senior government source told The Weekend Australian.
A decision to scrap the Seasprite would come as a bitter blow to the helicopter's manufacturer, which maintains that all the major hurdles to achieve a fully operational capability have been met.
Kaman estimates that meeting Australia's current airworthiness certification regulations, which fall outside the original contract specification for the Seasprites, will take a further 29 months and cost $US35 million ($45million).
Kaman is confident that it has solved all technical problems associated with the Seasprites' flight control system. This includes the handling glitches in the Seasprite's air data computer before last year's grounding of the machines.
"We have really done all of the testing to this point to convince us that the aircraft meets all of its specified requirements," Kaman Aviation's vice-president of engineering Mike Bowes told The Weekend Australian.
This included bench and flight testing of it and its sensors and weapons systems, including the Penguin anti-ship missile.
"We have just completed an enhancement of the flight control system which the commonwealth asked us to do to allow us to get an interim airworthiness certificate," he said.
Mr Bowes said Kaman had agreed a statement of work with the commonwealth to achieve full air certification by mid-2009.
The additional $US35 million cost will cover further software engineering and installation of additional redundancy in the Seasprites' flight control system as well as new software to comply with regulations.
Kaman is confident it has satisfactorily resolved a list of outstanding concerns presented by Defence last year relating to the performance of the Seasprites. These included the helicopter's performance when it was equipped with the Penguin missile and its stability when the missile was fired.
Dr Nelson has compared the ambition of the program, in which the latest avionics have been incorporated into an older airframe, to trying to put a "2010 motor vehicle into an EH Holden". "If this were a domestic purchase and you had the project in your garage, you would be sitting around your kitchen table with your wife saying, 'Look, do you think we should be continuing with it?"' he told The Weekend Australian last year.
"If it was my money, my project, and it involved my domestic arrangements, I know what I would be doing."
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As I understand it, New Zealand bought new airframes while Australia opted to refurbish old ones, which is where many of the problems have stemmed from.
Where we sourced new airframes from I'm not sure, since the type was apparently out of production, maybe they were unused but of original manufacture, or perhaps the dies still exist.
Where we sourced new airframes from I'm not sure, since the type was apparently out of production, maybe they were unused but of original manufacture, or perhaps the dies still exist.
The problems aren't with the airframe per se, it's with the systems integration.
The ITAS just won't work properly (though Kaman claims it's all fixed now); Litton knew this was going to be a high risk project years ago, and opted (IIRC) to accept a penalty & pull out rather than face continuing problems with the ITAS.
The ITAS just won't work properly (though Kaman claims it's all fixed now); Litton knew this was going to be a high risk project years ago, and opted (IIRC) to accept a penalty & pull out rather than face continuing problems with the ITAS.
Last edited by evilroy; 31st Mar 2007 at 03:59. Reason: Corrected punctuation
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My memory isn't what is used to be, but weren't the Aussies sort of railroaded into the Seasprite, having decided on a common airframe with NZ, who then announced they were choosing the SH-2 before the RAN had finished their evaluation.
Maybe they could buy some Future Lynx?
Maybe they could buy some Future Lynx?
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
because it now meets all of the contracted requirements.
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Greeknight 121 - you were correct when you said the the RAAF as the RAN has handed over all engineering airworthiness to the RAAF in late 90's, early 2000. The RAAF then said the a/c must meet the FAA regs (FAR 35 I think but don't yell at me the actual number). This meant the simplex software in the SeaSprite AFCS was inadequate and then Kaman had to devise a duplex solution. The problem with this whole project that it has been going so long, the goal posts have changed many times and thus the manufacturers have had to keep moving as well.
The initial purchase was supposed to be for the joint Aus/Malaysian Offshore Patrol vessel (OPV) but this was scuttled before the SH2 was sighned for. One of the reasons I left the RAN was this poorly designed and run project- the only people who thought it was a good idea was the project team. The SeaHawks 10 years before were a similar sh*tfight.
The initial purchase was supposed to be for the joint Aus/Malaysian Offshore Patrol vessel (OPV) but this was scuttled before the SH2 was sighned for. One of the reasons I left the RAN was this poorly designed and run project- the only people who thought it was a good idea was the project team. The SeaHawks 10 years before were a similar sh*tfight.
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The Seahawks were such a mess of a project that HdeH walked away and gave it all back to those idiots at Sikorsky.
Defence purchasing seems to be administered by complete morons, or political hacks, or both.
I still remember a marine engineer colleagues disbelief when we discovered (after the fire) that flexible fuel injection lines were fitted to Westralia.
He explained that the steel lines always fatigue because of the pressure pulses produced by the injector pumps. Sulzers solution is to use double walled steel lines with pressure gauges fitted to the cavity between.
When pressure appears on the gauge it indicates that the inner line has cracked and you have a decent interval of still safe operation to purchase a new assembly. His language about the flexible lines was unprintable.
Defence purchasing seems to be administered by complete morons, or political hacks, or both.
I still remember a marine engineer colleagues disbelief when we discovered (after the fire) that flexible fuel injection lines were fitted to Westralia.
He explained that the steel lines always fatigue because of the pressure pulses produced by the injector pumps. Sulzers solution is to use double walled steel lines with pressure gauges fitted to the cavity between.
When pressure appears on the gauge it indicates that the inner line has cracked and you have a decent interval of still safe operation to purchase a new assembly. His language about the flexible lines was unprintable.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Australia to Continue Effort to Develop Troubled Seasprite Copter
The Royal Australian Navy will persist with its troubled SH-2G(A) Super Seasprite helicopter program despite a six-year delay in the 1 billion Australian dollar ($820 million) project.
Australian Defence Minister Brendan Nelson had been expected later this year to cancel the project to acquire 11 of the helicopters, manufactured by Kaman Corp., Bloomfield, Conn. They were ordered in 1997 to equip the Navy’s eight Anzac-class frigates and were due to enter service in 2001, but have been delayed by software integration difficulties with their custom-built Integrated Tactical Avionics System (ITAS).
Last year, other problems emerged with the helicopters’ new digital Automatic Flight Control System (AFCS) and the aircraft were grounded. Ten of the Super Seasprites had been delivered to the Navy air base at Nowra, near Sydney, for initial training. The eleventh was retained by Kaman to complete ITAS development and flight testing.
“In April 2006, I initiated a full examination of the Seasprite project following grounding of the aircraft due to concerns over the reliability of the Seasprite’s automated flight control system,” Nelson said in a statement May 25. “The review paid particular attention to the reliability of the flight control system and its associated safety implications; the ramifications to Naval aviation of the project being six years late; and the performance of the integrated sensor system. After detailed consideration of the issues involved, the government has decided to continue the Seasprite project, subject to satisfactory contract arrangements.”
The aircraft will be returned to flight status “within the next several weeks,” according to Steve Rutter, Kaman’s Australian project manager. He said May 25 the company had remedied errors in the ITAS software, and with the Navy’s agreement, the Super Seasprites should start a final four- to five-week flight test and demonstration program at Nowra around the middle of the year.
But in a written response to questions May 28, the department stated that “due to the meticulous process designed to ensure adequate safety, it is unlikely that Seasprite flying will recommence before late 2007.”............
The Royal Australian Navy will persist with its troubled SH-2G(A) Super Seasprite helicopter program despite a six-year delay in the 1 billion Australian dollar ($820 million) project.
Australian Defence Minister Brendan Nelson had been expected later this year to cancel the project to acquire 11 of the helicopters, manufactured by Kaman Corp., Bloomfield, Conn. They were ordered in 1997 to equip the Navy’s eight Anzac-class frigates and were due to enter service in 2001, but have been delayed by software integration difficulties with their custom-built Integrated Tactical Avionics System (ITAS).
Last year, other problems emerged with the helicopters’ new digital Automatic Flight Control System (AFCS) and the aircraft were grounded. Ten of the Super Seasprites had been delivered to the Navy air base at Nowra, near Sydney, for initial training. The eleventh was retained by Kaman to complete ITAS development and flight testing.
“In April 2006, I initiated a full examination of the Seasprite project following grounding of the aircraft due to concerns over the reliability of the Seasprite’s automated flight control system,” Nelson said in a statement May 25. “The review paid particular attention to the reliability of the flight control system and its associated safety implications; the ramifications to Naval aviation of the project being six years late; and the performance of the integrated sensor system. After detailed consideration of the issues involved, the government has decided to continue the Seasprite project, subject to satisfactory contract arrangements.”
The aircraft will be returned to flight status “within the next several weeks,” according to Steve Rutter, Kaman’s Australian project manager. He said May 25 the company had remedied errors in the ITAS software, and with the Navy’s agreement, the Super Seasprites should start a final four- to five-week flight test and demonstration program at Nowra around the middle of the year.
But in a written response to questions May 28, the department stated that “due to the meticulous process designed to ensure adequate safety, it is unlikely that Seasprite flying will recommence before late 2007.”............
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A bit negative of me, I know, but I have this awful suspicion that when the A330 tanker arrives, the journous who are interested will be able to save themselves an enormous amount of keyboard tapping simply by dredging out the (hopefully by then) old Seasprite articles and hitting CTL+H ('replace') on their MS Word keyboards and deleting 'Seasprite' to insert 'Airbus A330 tanker'.