Flying Pay
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Flying Pay
Could anybody please shed some light on flying pay in the RAF for me?
I am in the situation where I got accepted for a bursary when flying pay was paid after 72 weeks of flying training. Since I failed to complete EFT pre cut off date it is now not paid until after OCU.
I find it somewhat unfair that you accept a jobs terms and conditions then the rules change. If I wanted to back out pre IOT I would have had to repay the bursary, so surely a contract existed. I have heard someone is arguing the same point with the help of a solicitor. Does anybody know if this is a rumour or somebody is making headway?
It seems a ridiculously unfair system where the individual is punished for the length of the training system. This post is not intended as a discussion regarding the whole flying/retention argument or if aircrew should get it.
Many Thanks
I am in the situation where I got accepted for a bursary when flying pay was paid after 72 weeks of flying training. Since I failed to complete EFT pre cut off date it is now not paid until after OCU.
I find it somewhat unfair that you accept a jobs terms and conditions then the rules change. If I wanted to back out pre IOT I would have had to repay the bursary, so surely a contract existed. I have heard someone is arguing the same point with the help of a solicitor. Does anybody know if this is a rumour or somebody is making headway?
It seems a ridiculously unfair system where the individual is punished for the length of the training system. This post is not intended as a discussion regarding the whole flying/retention argument or if aircrew should get it.
Many Thanks
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where I got accepted for a bursary when flying pay was paid after 72 weeks of flying training. Since I failed to complete EFT pre cut off date it is now not paid until after OCU.
When did you actually start IOT (begin employment)? When did the rules change in respect to that ?
I don't remember anything in the offer of a bursary referrring to Flying Pay. It talks about terms of service, lengths of engagement etc which you could contest if they changed.
When did you actually start IOT (begin employment)? When did the rules change in respect to that ?
I don't remember anything in the offer of a bursary referrring to Flying Pay. It talks about terms of service, lengths of engagement etc which you could contest if they changed.
Join Date: Jun 2004
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No Chance
Hi there,
Not here to winge, just to explain what happened to me.
I started IOT april 03 as a DE. For the next 3 years I was told i was getting flying pay 72 weeks after starting flying training. As I went through APO, Plt Off, Fg Off etc i received the same latter saying nothing had changed. On applying for FP i was told i was not able to for the reasons you outlined. On investigation, the AP was not amended until July of that year then retrospectively applied. 2 of us pushed through a redress. At all times i was informed that as an officer i should keep my self up to date with the AP and i shouldnt have to be informed of the change. This maybe however, I was employed by the Air Force before this change took effect.
On calculation I will be £45,000 behind my mates that i graduated with by the end of my PC. For me, in the fast jet stream just finishing AFJT, Its nearly 6 years from starting IOT to receiving flying pay. Those guys on multis are getting in many years sooner. Somehow seems unfair however an air force redress through it back at me with out really answering the question i asked, being that if i was on IOT before the new scheme was introduced into the AP, why am i on the new system when for the graduates they moved the date to july to account for the delay in amending the AP.
Not intended as a moan, but it just seemed you were in a similar circumstance. Im not taking it any further, its gone as high as I am willing to take it with out sticking my head up. 2 2stars have told me where to go so hint taken!
Hope it helps!
Not here to winge, just to explain what happened to me.
I started IOT april 03 as a DE. For the next 3 years I was told i was getting flying pay 72 weeks after starting flying training. As I went through APO, Plt Off, Fg Off etc i received the same latter saying nothing had changed. On applying for FP i was told i was not able to for the reasons you outlined. On investigation, the AP was not amended until July of that year then retrospectively applied. 2 of us pushed through a redress. At all times i was informed that as an officer i should keep my self up to date with the AP and i shouldnt have to be informed of the change. This maybe however, I was employed by the Air Force before this change took effect.
On calculation I will be £45,000 behind my mates that i graduated with by the end of my PC. For me, in the fast jet stream just finishing AFJT, Its nearly 6 years from starting IOT to receiving flying pay. Those guys on multis are getting in many years sooner. Somehow seems unfair however an air force redress through it back at me with out really answering the question i asked, being that if i was on IOT before the new scheme was introduced into the AP, why am i on the new system when for the graduates they moved the date to july to account for the delay in amending the AP.
Not intended as a moan, but it just seemed you were in a similar circumstance. Im not taking it any further, its gone as high as I am willing to take it with out sticking my head up. 2 2stars have told me where to go so hint taken!
Hope it helps!
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HAHA, Point taken. Thanks for the reply, understand it is not a moan just nice to know where you stand. Some people are quick to reply with a 'stop complaining' post when this is not what this thread is about.
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Good post by bpster.
I think the fact that you started IOT post rule change leaves you with less weight to any redress. There are people it seems that were even unluckier.
It sucks. Suppose there needs to be a cut off somewhere. Ask those who missed out on the last FRI by a matter of days.
I think the fact that you started IOT post rule change leaves you with less weight to any redress. There are people it seems that were even unluckier.
It sucks. Suppose there needs to be a cut off somewhere. Ask those who missed out on the last FRI by a matter of days.
I was told that they had reviewed their decision and concluded it was wrong (others might say illegal) to change and apply the new flying pay rules restrospectively. They then set a new, later date, from when they would apply the changes.
Despite the terms of our dodgy 'contract' surely they can't just decide to cut peoples pay without telling them and do it restrospectively
Well, jacks alright but I will check with the person who gave me this info (as soon as I remember who it was) and report back.
Despite the terms of our dodgy 'contract' surely they can't just decide to cut peoples pay without telling them and do it restrospectively
Well, jacks alright but I will check with the person who gave me this info (as soon as I remember who it was) and report back.
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I find it somewhat unfair that you accept a jobs terms and conditions then the rules change. If I wanted to back out pre IOT I would have had to repay the bursary, so surely a contract existed.
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I think you will find that all 3 services are littered with examples of where our lords and masters have removed incentives which were described to us at the time we took the queens shilling. If anyone has ever had any fortune in getting the decision reversed I would be interested to hear about it. I missed out on two commital bonuses, which they then reintroduced at a later date, an FRI, which they quoted the source as the AFPRB which made no mention of the FRI this time round, well last time round.....
But as the above post mentions, its the MoD, they treat us like dirt because, well they think they can I guess.......
Pension trap for me then.........
But as the above post mentions, its the MoD, they treat us like dirt because, well they think they can I guess.......
Pension trap for me then.........
Last edited by EmeraldToilet; 21st Feb 2007 at 12:45. Reason: spill chucker faileure
Your terms of employment (for want of a better description) can't just be changed overnight by the MoD. Your terms are as stated in the relevant Pam(Air) xxx, xxx being the edition in force on the day you were due to swear your oath of allegiance. I joined on a Cadetship in 1987, the flying pay rules changed in 1989, and again in 1993. My flying instructional pay (that's going back some...) was halted, and the initial award of fg pay delayed. After much querying, 18 months worth of querying to be fair, the pennycounters agreed that my terms and conditons were as stated when I joined and I received fg pay back dated to when it should have started, which was a nice lump sum of around 8grand and several years seniority on the fg pay scale. vroom vroom.
It helped that I'd kept a copy of the Pam(Air) relevant to when I'd signed up, and had a friendly and knowledgable P1 staff instead of JPA staff.
If your bursary contained an offer of employment with a full commission in it, you have a case for claiming you're on the 'old' rules. If it was a bursary with no guarantee of employment at the end of it, I'm afraid it sounds as though you've dipped out. Serves you right for not going multi's
. Good luck.
It helped that I'd kept a copy of the Pam(Air) relevant to when I'd signed up, and had a friendly and knowledgable P1 staff instead of JPA staff.
If your bursary contained an offer of employment with a full commission in it, you have a case for claiming you're on the 'old' rules. If it was a bursary with no guarantee of employment at the end of it, I'm afraid it sounds as though you've dipped out. Serves you right for not going multi's
. Good luck.
I seem to recall a phrase somewhere along the lines of "If you can't take the air force then you shouldn't have joined a joke", or similar. I'm afraid that that covers this situation, by the looks of it. Once two 2 sars tell someone to poke off then poking off is the only option.
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Your terms of employment (for want of a better description) can't just be changed overnight by the MoD. Your terms are as stated in the relevant Pam(Air) xxx, xxx being the edition in force on the day you were due to swear your oath of allegiance.
My sympathies to you all who got fragged by this particular knee jerk. I do consider it to be very unfair. And it doesn't encourage some of the more mercenary amongst the baby aircrew to push for the FJ stream, when the wait for the end of the OCU can be as much as 2 & 1/2 years later than their RW and ME cousins.
TTH
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It'll all be over soon
I hate to be the one who says it but. To pay for the FRI, money had to be saved somewhere. Unfortunately it happened to baby pilots. The RAF has a history of taking from one hand to feed another, but in a few years all this will be forgotten. It is a crying 
shame to all people who missed out, but thats life. Spending money to try and claim you signed up on this contract, or were told this by someone is a waste of both parties time and money.
If the dates are set down, and you missed the boat, then unfortunatley its tough. The system was very good before, its just fair now, not unfair as was commented. Unfair would be to cut the daily rate of pay (better say that quietly, or it might happen) . As for the FJ boys not getting FP for 6 years, you shouldn't have worked so hard
shame to all people who missed out, but thats life. Spending money to try and claim you signed up on this contract, or were told this by someone is a waste of both parties time and money. If the dates are set down, and you missed the boat, then unfortunatley its tough. The system was very good before, its just fair now, not unfair as was commented. Unfair would be to cut the daily rate of pay (better say that quietly, or it might happen) . As for the FJ boys not getting FP for 6 years, you shouldn't have worked so hard
Somehow seems unfair however an air force redress through it back at me with out really answering the question i asked, being that if i was on IOT before the new scheme was introduced into the AP, why am i on the new system when for the graduates they moved the date to july to account for the delay in amending the AP
It looks like you should have done better at school.Aircrew whingeing, it makes my day so much more bearable.
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On calculation I will be £45,000 behind my mates that i graduated with by the end of my PC.
If you had got a degree however, you would have LOADS more money...
Roguedent, believe the beef is not that flying pay was moved, but it was moved retrospectively after people had signed on the line under ts&cs that declared they would receive it. That's like (in fact... is!) signing a contract to work for asda for 7.50 an hour, working for a few months and then being told they'd rather pay you 5.80 an hour. Not exactly fair play! Not an issue if you'd signed for the 5.80 in the first place, but a bit of a kick in the teeth to do it after you've signed on the line.