Blue on Blue.
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I am reminded of the cartoon depicting two vultures sitting on a bough and one says to the other "patience my ass, I'm going to kill something". This is a simple case of typical US gung ho attitude carried out by inappropriately trained aviators. The target was of no conceivable threat, they failed completely to recognise the target and failed to utilise any power of reasoning they might reasonably be expected to have.
This will not be the last time this sort of thing happens, the US system of combat procedure and indoctrination in fatally flawed as a consequence of having to cope with its cultural and educational diversity. Remember the Blackhawk that got shot down mistaken for a Hind!!!!! the fighter controler was in the same AWACS that was supervising the Blackhawk!!! The Fighter Pilot was disciplined for failing to engage on the first run when he decided he was not convinced of the target legitimacy. He was ordered to the IP and to re attack. He did so.
This is the mentality, autonomy of action is not permitted. You will comply.
This will not be the last time this sort of thing happens, the US system of combat procedure and indoctrination in fatally flawed as a consequence of having to cope with its cultural and educational diversity. Remember the Blackhawk that got shot down mistaken for a Hind!!!!! the fighter controler was in the same AWACS that was supervising the Blackhawk!!! The Fighter Pilot was disciplined for failing to engage on the first run when he decided he was not convinced of the target legitimacy. He was ordered to the IP and to re attack. He did so.
This is the mentality, autonomy of action is not permitted. You will comply.
US Herk wrote:
Why are you not screaming for better IFF, better battlefield ID, better anything?
whats the point of installing yet another recognition system for USAF CAS to willfully ignore? a six foot square orange panels - that they did see - that every cook and bottlewasher from Poland to Hawaii knows 'Don't fcuking shoot me you inbred, slope-faced, reindeer **** eating moron!' not enough? why bother with an IFF system if USAF pilots disregard it? they saw the standard 'Friendly' recognition sysatem, yet disregarded it. if we were to have IIF on our ground callsigns what would the excuse be then - 'err.. the signal might have been forged... or err... come from space aliens, or... err...i saw the light but disregarded it, but i didn't hear the tone because it was drowned out by my Billy Ray Cyrus album'
they saw the Orange panels, but instead of the blindingly obvious conclusion of 'they are probably friendlies and are either in the wrong place or the FAC is looking in the wrong direction' decided to make up some fancifull ****e about 'orange rockets'. orange rockets FFS? now i've seen pictures of Orange rockets (not many to be fair) but if i saw orange things on unidentified vehicles in a battle zone where Orange was the standard recognition symbol for my side i'd have about 400 hundred options. 399 would be 'you are looking at a friendly callsign, there may have been a fcuk-up with positioning'.
what makes it even worse is that when POPOV35 suggested 'Orange Rockets', the incredulity in POPOV36's voice was obvious, yet still he allowed an attack to take place.
fog of war doesn't cover this. fog of war is lots of nasty things happening at the same time, watch the video, there's FA happening - no RWR screaching, no frantic calls for air support from ground callsigns - these half-wits could of been flying over Arkansas and had more going on.
Why are you not screaming for better IFF, better battlefield ID, better anything?
whats the point of installing yet another recognition system for USAF CAS to willfully ignore? a six foot square orange panels - that they did see - that every cook and bottlewasher from Poland to Hawaii knows 'Don't fcuking shoot me you inbred, slope-faced, reindeer **** eating moron!' not enough? why bother with an IFF system if USAF pilots disregard it? they saw the standard 'Friendly' recognition sysatem, yet disregarded it. if we were to have IIF on our ground callsigns what would the excuse be then - 'err.. the signal might have been forged... or err... come from space aliens, or... err...i saw the light but disregarded it, but i didn't hear the tone because it was drowned out by my Billy Ray Cyrus album'
they saw the Orange panels, but instead of the blindingly obvious conclusion of 'they are probably friendlies and are either in the wrong place or the FAC is looking in the wrong direction' decided to make up some fancifull ****e about 'orange rockets'. orange rockets FFS? now i've seen pictures of Orange rockets (not many to be fair) but if i saw orange things on unidentified vehicles in a battle zone where Orange was the standard recognition symbol for my side i'd have about 400 hundred options. 399 would be 'you are looking at a friendly callsign, there may have been a fcuk-up with positioning'.
what makes it even worse is that when POPOV35 suggested 'Orange Rockets', the incredulity in POPOV36's voice was obvious, yet still he allowed an attack to take place.
fog of war doesn't cover this. fog of war is lots of nasty things happening at the same time, watch the video, there's FA happening - no RWR screaching, no frantic calls for air support from ground callsigns - these half-wits could of been flying over Arkansas and had more going on.
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Odd isn't it that when 2 F15s fly into Ben Macdui while under RAF ATC direction we have a court martial and a charge of causing death by negligence, but when POPOV shoot up a British column there is no disciplinary case to answer!
Just an observation - nothing more.
Just an observation - nothing more.
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Had a look at the Friendly Fire forum about this incident on the American Military.com.
A few positive and balanced comments but an awful lot of posts that reveal a chasm of misunderstanding between our two cultures. Some believe that Mrs Hull is being politically manipulated or out for revenge or profit; that the coroner is out for his own political ends, is a left-wing pinko anti-American like many Brits and has wilfully overstepped the boundaries in his findings; that there is a strong ambulance chasing element behind the British expressions of outrage. Above all, a strong conviction that in war mistakes happen, so we should just accept it.
Rather depressing. For me the shining light in all this unpleasantness has been the courage and professionalism of the coronor and the courage, dignity and humanity of Mrs Hull.
A few positive and balanced comments but an awful lot of posts that reveal a chasm of misunderstanding between our two cultures. Some believe that Mrs Hull is being politically manipulated or out for revenge or profit; that the coroner is out for his own political ends, is a left-wing pinko anti-American like many Brits and has wilfully overstepped the boundaries in his findings; that there is a strong ambulance chasing element behind the British expressions of outrage. Above all, a strong conviction that in war mistakes happen, so we should just accept it.
Rather depressing. For me the shining light in all this unpleasantness has been the courage and professionalism of the coronor and the courage, dignity and humanity of Mrs Hull.
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The Coroner
Perhaps Cultural Awareness of Arabs is impossible if Cultural Awareness of England and its institutions is absent ? Anyway we know that the Coroner's Office is almost 1000 years old and that Mr Andrew Walker is a Barrister......
http://www.lbwf.gov.uk/index/environ...s/coroners.htm
http://www.lbwf.gov.uk/index/environ...s/coroners.htm
I may have missed it, if so my apologies but has there been a Coroner's Court Finding on the two crew members sadly lost to "Friendly Fire" in the Tornado, shot down at the beginning of GW2?
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One last time & I'll do it slowly with small words.
WE DO NOT KNOW THE ROE.
Based on the above statement, we can conclusively state:
WE DO NOT HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS.
You can bitch & moan all you want about the non-cooperating US government & cry "cover up" all you want, ROE will not be released to someone who does not have a need to know. I'm sorry to say, a British Coroner, no matter how ancient his post may be, does not have any right whatsoever to classified ROE. It's called Operational Security, or OPSEC. It will not be divulged. To do so would be reckless & negligent.
Now, you may argue to your heart's content about whether or not it should be divulged, but accept it as fact that it will not be. Therefore, you cannot know all the answers. That said, you cannot come to anything other than a guessed conclusion.
This "duty of care" nonsense you've picked up from your association with the EU is a slippery slope of blame & liability control - nothing good will come of it. It serves only the ambulance chasers.
It appears you either will not listen to reason, are intent on continuing to confuse politics with logic, and will cut your own throats to spite a despised PM. I think it's best if I leave this thread.
WE DO NOT KNOW THE ROE.
Based on the above statement, we can conclusively state:
WE DO NOT HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS.
You can bitch & moan all you want about the non-cooperating US government & cry "cover up" all you want, ROE will not be released to someone who does not have a need to know. I'm sorry to say, a British Coroner, no matter how ancient his post may be, does not have any right whatsoever to classified ROE. It's called Operational Security, or OPSEC. It will not be divulged. To do so would be reckless & negligent.
Now, you may argue to your heart's content about whether or not it should be divulged, but accept it as fact that it will not be. Therefore, you cannot know all the answers. That said, you cannot come to anything other than a guessed conclusion.
This "duty of care" nonsense you've picked up from your association with the EU is a slippery slope of blame & liability control - nothing good will come of it. It serves only the ambulance chasers.
It appears you either will not listen to reason, are intent on continuing to confuse politics with logic, and will cut your own throats to spite a despised PM. I think it's best if I leave this thread.
Yes, I think you are probably right, if all you can offer is patronising cant. Of course Opsec should not be compromised. Our worry is that it has been, as the last refuge of scoundrels. Goodbye!
"I may have missed it, if so my apologies but has there been a Coroner's Court Finding on the two crew members sadly lost to "Friendly Fire" in the Tornado, shot down at the beginning of GW2?"
BOI report here.....
http://www.iwar.org.uk/news-archive/.../maaszg710.pdf
Infers IFF was unserviceable, but if you read the recommendations it emerges failure warnings were not integrated into the cockpit, which sheds a somewhat different light on matters. More so, when you obtain, under FOI, confirmation that the integration of such warnings is optional, despite them being fundamental to the safety of the aircraft and aircrew.
Not sure the Coroner appreciated that little gem from 2*, 3* and junior ministers.
BOI report here.....
http://www.iwar.org.uk/news-archive/.../maaszg710.pdf
Infers IFF was unserviceable, but if you read the recommendations it emerges failure warnings were not integrated into the cockpit, which sheds a somewhat different light on matters. More so, when you obtain, under FOI, confirmation that the integration of such warnings is optional, despite them being fundamental to the safety of the aircraft and aircrew.
Not sure the Coroner appreciated that little gem from 2*, 3* and junior ministers.
US Herk,
i don't particularly give a fcuk what ROE were in place. the aircraft commander is soley responsible for what he does or does not do - if he can't handle the responsibilty of making his own decisions about when and when not to engage a ground target then he shouldn't be in charge of a bag of chips let alone an Aircraft.
if these ROE were - potentially - so requiring of 'if its not waving a (fcuking big) US flag, Kill it' why was this not discussed at any stage either between the pilots or between the FAC and the pilots?
bit unusual, yet it didn't attract comment... odd that.
or, perchance, is this yet another makey-uppy 'security reason' to be used to attempt to cover-up incompetance?
i don't particularly give a fcuk what ROE were in place. the aircraft commander is soley responsible for what he does or does not do - if he can't handle the responsibilty of making his own decisions about when and when not to engage a ground target then he shouldn't be in charge of a bag of chips let alone an Aircraft.
if these ROE were - potentially - so requiring of 'if its not waving a (fcuking big) US flag, Kill it' why was this not discussed at any stage either between the pilots or between the FAC and the pilots?
bit unusual, yet it didn't attract comment... odd that.
or, perchance, is this yet another makey-uppy 'security reason' to be used to attempt to cover-up incompetance?
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I posted this previously, but for the benefit of US Herk and those who didn't see it - "one last time & I'll do it slowly with small words".
THE ROE WERE KNOWN TO A SEPARATE AND PREVIOUS ENQUIRY:
http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/n...06/0506936.pdf
http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/new_pubs/jp3_09_3.pdf
What the UK Coroner also appears not to have been worthy of being told by the US DoD was what the "prescribed restrictions set by the JTAC" (Joint Terminal Attack Controller) were, whether POPOV35, acting as attack aircraft flight leader, failed to ensure that POPOV36 did indeed "initiate attacks within the parameters imposed by the JTAC" and/or whether the JTAC (MANILA HOTEL) failed "to maintain control of the attacks", either of which would have been a failure to adhere to the above procedures. Perhaps the finger of blame should also point at whoever undertook "the tactical risk assessment" and authorised the "Type 3 control" in the 'Kill Box' within which Matty Hull and his colleagues were presumably known to be operating.
US Herk - I'd be most interested in your comments re. the above.
THE ROE WERE KNOWN TO A SEPARATE AND PREVIOUS ENQUIRY:
http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/n...06/0506936.pdf http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/new_pubs/jp3_09_3.pdfWhat the UK Coroner also appears not to have been worthy of being told by the US DoD was what the "prescribed restrictions set by the JTAC" (Joint Terminal Attack Controller) were, whether POPOV35, acting as attack aircraft flight leader, failed to ensure that POPOV36 did indeed "initiate attacks within the parameters imposed by the JTAC" and/or whether the JTAC (MANILA HOTEL) failed "to maintain control of the attacks", either of which would have been a failure to adhere to the above procedures. Perhaps the finger of blame should also point at whoever undertook "the tactical risk assessment" and authorised the "Type 3 control" in the 'Kill Box' within which Matty Hull and his colleagues were presumably known to be operating.
US Herk - I'd be most interested in your comments re. the above.
Last edited by rab-k; 18th Mar 2007 at 23:49. Reason: Include link to "Joint Publication 3-09.3"
US Herc
Please do not assume that many posters here are speaking without having been in the seat - not always true! We have seen the transcripts and can see the huge flaws in the procedure. Banging on about ROE will not cover for a complacent and unprofessional attitude in the POPOV cockpits.
You might also like to review some of your posts. There is a creeping tone of " well, you don't need to know and even though we killed your next of kin it was for a reason". This attitude has been the biggest single reason that your country is now despised throughout most of the world.
We are one of your few allies. It might be best not to treat the memory of our servicemen and women, along with our due legal process with the contempt that you reserve for the rest of the world's culture and beleifs.
Please do not assume that many posters here are speaking without having been in the seat - not always true! We have seen the transcripts and can see the huge flaws in the procedure. Banging on about ROE will not cover for a complacent and unprofessional attitude in the POPOV cockpits.
You might also like to review some of your posts. There is a creeping tone of " well, you don't need to know and even though we killed your next of kin it was for a reason". This attitude has been the biggest single reason that your country is now despised throughout most of the world.
We are one of your few allies. It might be best not to treat the memory of our servicemen and women, along with our due legal process with the contempt that you reserve for the rest of the world's culture and beleifs.
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We are one of your few allies. It might be best not to treat the memory of our servicemen and women, along with our due legal process with the contempt that you reserve for the rest of the world's culture and beleifs.
This thread, however, like most has descended into "stoopid Yanks," "Blood thirsty bastards," etc, etc. Who is showing contempt?
Two A-10 pilots, a FAC, and two governments screwed the pooch and a British serviceman died as a result. Tragic, yes. Regretable, yes. Fixable, hopefully yes (but no system or set of people will ever be foolproof).
It is indeed a very slippery slope, one already hard to keep one's grip on, to introduce civil criminal proceedings into a military conflict. My comment earlier about a JAG in every cockpit was on point. What hue and cry will arise when a CAS pilot hesitates or even refuses (unlikely, but work with me here) to fire unless everything lines up?
Please don't nitpick the last statement, there are obviously a million variations to every situation.
Finally, how would your posts read if the aircraft in question had roundels and not the star and bar on the side?
Brickhistory,
Finally, how would your posts read if the aircraft in question had roundels and not the star and bar on the side?
if an RAF/RN aircraft attacked a US ground callsign despite seeing standard NATO recognition features then i'd quite happily see the pilot shot at 9am on a monday morning outside the Officers mess.
with any luck a 'stray' round might get that silly tart of a Flt Lt who managed to make herself - and the rest of the RAF - look a complete arrse by (apparently) slagging off every other trade for their 'less stringent' duties in the sandpit.
no national bias here, though the US's pool of goodwill over such events is somwhat reduced by the regularity of the occurence and the attempted cover-up that almost allways occurs
Finally, how would your posts read if the aircraft in question had roundels and not the star and bar on the side?
if an RAF/RN aircraft attacked a US ground callsign despite seeing standard NATO recognition features then i'd quite happily see the pilot shot at 9am on a monday morning outside the Officers mess.
with any luck a 'stray' round might get that silly tart of a Flt Lt who managed to make herself - and the rest of the RAF - look a complete arrse by (apparently) slagging off every other trade for their 'less stringent' duties in the sandpit.
no national bias here, though the US's pool of goodwill over such events is somwhat reduced by the regularity of the occurence and the attempted cover-up that almost allways occurs
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Brick:
"Finally, how would your posts read if the aircraft in question had roundels and not the star and bar on the side?"
The same. But let's face it, the RAF aren't the ones with a long history of previous in this department.
US Herk:
Glad you're going. You are what is known in the British Armed Forces as an arse. I have worked with some exceptional people from the US. Its just a pity they don't post on here as I (perhaps naively) believe that most Americans do not think like you. If I'm wrong and they do, you're all in more trouble than I first thought. But then I'm guessing you're not that far up the Command Chain, so I suppose it doesn't really matter....
"Finally, how would your posts read if the aircraft in question had roundels and not the star and bar on the side?"
The same. But let's face it, the RAF aren't the ones with a long history of previous in this department.
US Herk:
Glad you're going. You are what is known in the British Armed Forces as an arse. I have worked with some exceptional people from the US. Its just a pity they don't post on here as I (perhaps naively) believe that most Americans do not think like you. If I'm wrong and they do, you're all in more trouble than I first thought. But then I'm guessing you're not that far up the Command Chain, so I suppose it doesn't really matter....
Please don't let the thread degenerate into abuse.
The fact, brickhistory and US Herk, is that in addition to systemic errors in their failure to adhere to theatre RoEs and their own SOPs, there is a basic core mentality which needs to change.
For many years I deplyed to Incirlik in support of Allied operations in Iraq. Initially, the purpose of the operations in Iraq were to keep an eye on Saddam's activities and to ensure that the terms of the cease fire were adhered to.
But later, there was a huge change. I was frankly appalled at the attitude of some of the ANG units who seemed desperate to find an opportunity - any opportunity - to kill something. One so-called ANG commander actually complained to the armed recce units that "If you guys don't stir something up, then we might have to go home next week without having dropped any ordnance". Bloodthirsty shoot-em-up cowboy mentality, I have to say. And hugely different to most of the regular units who'd been there 10 years earlier.
If there is any doubt (as there most definitely was here), you do NOT shoot. What can you not understand about such a simple concept?
The fact, brickhistory and US Herk, is that in addition to systemic errors in their failure to adhere to theatre RoEs and their own SOPs, there is a basic core mentality which needs to change.
For many years I deplyed to Incirlik in support of Allied operations in Iraq. Initially, the purpose of the operations in Iraq were to keep an eye on Saddam's activities and to ensure that the terms of the cease fire were adhered to.
But later, there was a huge change. I was frankly appalled at the attitude of some of the ANG units who seemed desperate to find an opportunity - any opportunity - to kill something. One so-called ANG commander actually complained to the armed recce units that "If you guys don't stir something up, then we might have to go home next week without having dropped any ordnance". Bloodthirsty shoot-em-up cowboy mentality, I have to say. And hugely different to most of the regular units who'd been there 10 years earlier.
If there is any doubt (as there most definitely was here), you do NOT shoot. What can you not understand about such a simple concept?
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Does anyone know if there is a similar thread running on Canadian Prunery sites about the A10s that seem to have shot up Canadians in Afghanistan recently? Be interested to know if there is a more accepting approach from fellow North Americans.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
What hue and cry will arise when a CAS pilot hesitates or even refuses (unlikely, but work with me here) to fire unless everything lines up?
The CAS ac was unable to positively identify the intended target and confirm that there was sufficient distance between target and friendlies.
No ordnance was dropped and no one was killed (on either side) as a result.
There was no immediate threat, unlike the mis-ident on the Tornado, the only issue, as Beags pointed out, was the potential failure to drop ordnance on a potential target to gain a possible 'bomb' symbol on the cockpit.
PS, it is true, like the Belgrano, that the putative north bound missile TELs could have stopped and turned around at any moment. There was no reason therefore not to replace Popov with another CAP just in case.
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Re BEagle's last post, during GW1 I listened to a radio interview of a pair of A-10 pilots who had been strafing Iraqi troops and they were talking extremely excitably, finishing with the statement, '...it was a turkey shoot!' I felt shocked by the evident 'gung ho-ness' in their attitudes. The following day there was a 'friendly fire' incident by A-10s which resulted in the deaths of 9 British soldiers.
What is a turkey shoot?
What is a turkey shoot?