A flying Air Trafficer!!!!?????

[proper_brevet]

Could anyone please enlighten me? I heard on the grapevine that they have appointed an ATC officer to a surveillance role on the E3D fleet. If this is the case have PMC or whoever made this descision gone completely mad? I thought in the current climate of leaning and saving money etc, that to start having to pay out more flying pay, as well as all the other additional expenses it costs to put people in the air, is a bit hypocritical.
As aircrew myself I know that their are loads of properly trained, not to mention selected, guys sat about in pointless ground tours chomping at the bit to get back flying. He's been trained as an air trafficer so if he feels the need to go flying then he should do what thousands have done before him. Put in his paperwork and go to Cranwell. I'm sure that his branch aren't not too pleased either having lost a bod as well.
If this descision happens to be true it will surely bolster the desire for more NCA to jump ship. Well done RAF

[Clear Right,Px Good!]

Flying air Trafficker

PB,
Please refer, todays reading:

http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers/jobs/f...rolofficer.cfm

Unless of course this is some new form of surreal Banter?

[London Mil]

Don't know whether your statement is true or not. However, if you think of some of the roles that E3s do, maybe you could argue that an air traffiker has the skills necessary to do some of the stuff down the back. There is a recognisable overlap between some of the FC and ATC tasks (standing by for a load of abuse here).

That said, I can't imagine said individual harping on about getting a brevet and flying pay.

[FormerFlake]

There is room on the E3D for the extra dougnut requirements too.

[proper_brevet]

London Mil, I agree that ATC an FC are very similar jobs with perhaps ATC being more demanding. I have nothing whatsover against ATC (especially as I'm ex TG9). What does annoy me and the rest of the NCA Cadre, I should imagine, is that an aircrew post has been filled by someone from completely outside the aircrew world whilst be wait, fingers crossed, hoping that we might get sent to E3's rather than having to spend more time in Kinloss which ultimately= more time in the Gulf. You could argue then about TG12 doing the Surveillance job but for better or for worse they have been doing it for some time, much to the disappointment of many Aeops. Airmanship in the back of any aircraft, without properly trained operators, will suffer, it's a well known fact. I would imagine anyone in the RAF could do the surveillance job but when it comes to airmanship that's a different kettle of fish.

[bracketsew]

air traffic

can you believe it. they will be sending supply officers next.

what ever happened to putting aircrew on an aircraft. you know the people that do a flying training school and are selected to be aircrew. People with a brevet.

another belter from the COMPONENT

[bracketsew]

having flown on several aircraft types including the e-3 it is quite amazing how the aircraft operates. nothing like it anywhere. the crew are treat like passengers. the seatbelt light that the crew have to obey its every command when ever it is on. not allowed to think for then selves. but then again most on the mission crew are not aircrew.

i know for a fact that aircrew when they see what it is like are absolutely shocked and cannot believe the way the crew are actually just passengers that operate the kit.

i know of highly expirienced aircrew that have been on gaywacs to be treated like a young sac down the bunker with no regard of his previous flying expirience what so ever.

[proper_brevet]

Bracketsew, If that's the case, why on Earth do some qualify for flying pay then? If they are treated like passengers and act like passengers then surely they warrant no extra reward i.e flying pay and a brevet. Air stewards and Aero medics get a nice little set of wings on their sleeves and from first hand experience they work hard and as a crew. Some of them, especially Aero Meds are on the front line in undesirable places which I need not mention. Through no fault of their own E3's don't go anywhere near the front line. I don't want to get into a slagging match as I'm sure FC do a very important job but returning to my original query,about posting other trades into a flying job, I'm just annoyed that other trades are whittling done precious slots.

[proper_brevet]

Ps Bracketsew

Get a dictionary

Banter Banter

Please tell me you are allowed Banter on e3's!!!

[SidHolding]

Clear Right, Px Good. Your link is to Fighter Control Officer, I think the debate is about an Air Traffic Control Officer......

http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers/jobs/a...controller.cfm

Also, the original post states that the ATC Officer is to be a Surveillance Operator not a Controller. Seems odd to me and I can agree with the comments on NCA. AEOps/WSOps are trained very highly in airborne comms, radar and EW (notably ESM).

Maybe the E3 fleet (where I have held for a while and has many top guys on the Sqns) needs leaning. SO's are Sgt's, Leaders positions are FS, and then empowered MACR/WO as SC?!? The Controller side is equally specialised so yeah, stick TG12/FC/ATCO.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[trap one]

ATC in E3's was talked about for years

Gents as some one who has left the RAF but spent 8.5 years on E3's when we were supporting both FJ and all other assets on ops, I might be able to help. The ATC role that was continually talked about was the routing of aircraft up and down the ACO's, on the safe side of the fence. Coupled with controlling the AARA's. All jobs that the Area ATC controller is familiar with and capable of doing. The problem was training the ATC controller to do all the AD/Mud/CSAR/TST/Recce/Package controlling.
The problem of placing "proper brevet" wearing personnel into the seats on the E3 was the fact that the old 8 Sqn shacks gave out control tickets to the crew. This was unfortunately against the NATO STANAG that allowed the NATO, USAF, FAF and RAF E3's to control in any NATO country as long as they held a ground controllers ticket in their home country. The RN and USN do things slightly different and have further restrictions on where and what service they can apply.
The solution always was to get "aircrew" a ground ticket and certainly this was done in the initial days of converting from Shacks to E3's. But I have to say with not as great a success as expected/anticipated.
Whilst the Shack controllers didn't come up to full expectations neither was it an automatic "go to OCU, pass OCU get flying pay" for the cround controllers.
I know that before I left there were 4 "aircrew" who went through the School of Fighter Control on what was a short course. To try and get them into the back of the E3D. Now for various reasons including Promotion to WC I believe that only 2 made it to Waddo and passed out of the OCU.
I believe that these individuals were done a dis-service by rushing them through and told all 4 that to their faces and no I didn't hide it from my senior officers.
To me and a lot of people it was the different back ground of the crews, that enabled us to give a what we believe was a high level of service. (I have not talked to my friends that are left at Waddo about the apparent lack of respect that a lot of PPruners seem to hold for the E3D these days as for me the hangar doors are well and truly shut.)
One of the most effective crews I was ever crewed up with consisted of the following
2x F4/F3 Nav
Jag/Gr1 pilot
Ex Vc10 Engineer
C130 Nav from SF
4 AEOPs 3 from Kipper 1 from Cranwell
1 FC FL who subsequently went through the FULL Nav course as a over 38 year old SL and made it to the F3's and got CR.
Add a previous RN FC who crossed over to light blue and the mix made with the AT's without whom it really was a 707 that was a waste of space.
Now as for the allegations the E3 doesn't go into harms way, I'll say a number of things that you can check up on.
DASS
MAWS
Chaff
Flares
RHWR
None of which is a BEDWINDOW as it's all open source info.
However I have been the wrong side of the fence in an E3D and flow through the turbulence generated by a Missile going off co-alt 2-3 miles on our nose.
As for the practice of sitting down and strapping in the E3 has a relatively small coffin corner in certain conditions and at least on 3 occassions an E3D has stalled out.
I also know of an instance when one of the AT's was lugging boxes around and the skipper pulled 2 G's to effect a tanker join. A forth right debrief was held on landing.

[proper_brevet]

trap one, I agree that a crew made up 'aircrew' from a different variety of backgrounds is a good thing as it obviously brings a whole wealth of experience of different situations. I also understand the point about an ATCO doing the AARA controlling etc this, I presume, was during when the FC were busy controlling FJ's etc. My original query was that the rumour I heard was of an ATCO doing the surveillance job hence taking an aircrew pic away. It wouldn't make a difference if he was a ATCO or a cook the fact of the matter is that the airforce are putting people into 'aircrew' slots whilst trained professional aviators with lots of hours, experience, time on operations and the desire to fly are sat around languishing in, quite frankly, low moral menial jobs. I thought the RAF had addressed this problem with the introduction of the Ops Support Branch which ATC is part of. Instead they appear to be doing the opposite which is going to be expensive as well as having a knock on effect to all aircrew stuck in ground tours.

[airwaverider]

Gents, there will be an ATC officer on the next course later on in the year and he will be trained in the surveillance role and there's no plan to train him as a controller. By right this slot should go to TG12, I've no idea what PMA are playing at!!!!

[Avtur]

Trap one; if you are suggesting the E3-D doesn't go into harms way because it has no DASS, you need to take a close look at the only operational ISTAR asset at Waddo and note that it also has no DASS, but spends in excess of 6 months of the year in such environments.

[proper_brevet]

Thanks airwave rider,
So the rumour was true!! All I can say is that it will infuriate a lot of other people. Why bother working hard through selection and training when valuable slots are just given away to other trades. Good luck to him, however, it's not his fault just the baffoons in PMA.

Whether or not Mr airwaverider it should have been a TG12 slot is irrelevant, the whole situation however is pretty worrying for your trade I should think. Obviously PMA think any Tom, Dick and Harry can do the job so your days on "The Jet" are numbered. An Air Trafficer today, a policeman tommorrow (at least he can look after the S and C downroute). At least us WSOP's have other options even if it does mean more desert time. Nevermind eh? Bunkers aren't that bad..............are they?

[SAR Bloke]

I'd be interested to know where all these aircrew are that are sitting around on ground tours whilst there is a front line manning shortage. There aren't enough AEOps on SAR for radop posts and I believe there was a thread recently about training LMs and AEs to cover the AEOp shortage in the 'mighty hunter' fleet. There are still plenty of aircrew slots available for those that want them.

[proper_brevet]

SAR bloke,
Please come and look round Kinloss and Waddington Ops. You'll be amazed! I've been on a ground tour for almost two years, I was above average in the air and A1 Z1 G1 and I'm continually asking the poster for a flying job. Mate, like you I didn't become aircrew to shuffle paperclips around whilst ATCO go flying hence why I am so annoyed about the above and perhaps looking on getting out. At least there I wouldn't have to put up with this hypocrisy.

[MAD Boom]

Proper bloke,
Would be interested to know which post you are currently filling, and why PMA are reluctant to post you out of it.
It seems rather odd that someone who is contuously asking for a flying tour is being denied it; unless, perhaps, you are an absolute superstar in your current post.
Most likely you are being a tad selective in your choice of flying post.

[proper_brevet]

Mad Boom,
You are right, perhaps I am being a Tad selective about what flying post I want to go to. However, I don't want to open another can of worms about being picky etc etc. The fact is that our choices of flying post are being made smaller when you take a WSOP out and put a ATCO in. I don't think that it's unreasonable to want to move away from Maritime and try something different especially in the current climate. Their are plenty of WSop's who have been South for some time (some who haven't even been North). As my tenth time in the Gulf approaches I would like to taste the forbidden fruits of other ISTAR platforms. That said it still doesn't detract from the fact that their are still lots of WSops on ground tours.

[London Mil]

pb, you could always try and be an air traffiker for a few years. I personally know of four people with 'proper' brevets who did it whilst retaining their flying pay.