A flying Air Trafficer!!!!?????
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Put all this bitching to one side.........
The SO job on an E3 involves ESM and Airborne Radar. This job is carried out by AEOps and TG12, mostly non-commissioned (as it should be). I think the main points (bitching aside) to this thread are that AEOps can't get posted out of ground tours and back to flying, and filling a SNCO's job with an Officer also seems to be a waste of money (especially in this day and age).
Yes this guy is an ex-AEOp (as am I) and I'm sure he's more than capable of the task. But you wouldn't send an ex Techie back to the line if he'd been commissioned?!?
Sid.
The SO job on an E3 involves ESM and Airborne Radar. This job is carried out by AEOps and TG12, mostly non-commissioned (as it should be). I think the main points (bitching aside) to this thread are that AEOps can't get posted out of ground tours and back to flying, and filling a SNCO's job with an Officer also seems to be a waste of money (especially in this day and age).
Yes this guy is an ex-AEOp (as am I) and I'm sure he's more than capable of the task. But you wouldn't send an ex Techie back to the line if he'd been commissioned?!?
Sid.
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AMEN, E-3's are already massively top heavy, and with all this career mentality that there is, officers are being upgraded quite often less than six months after being made CR. surely this is not conducive to both expirience and good leadership.
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Real Aircrew/ Not Real Aircrew ?
Come on,
And there was me thinking that we were all on the same side, how naive.
A SAM won't differentiate between an FC brevet, or an AEOp Brevet. The hours will be the same whether you have a WSOp Badge or an AT Badge. You will all end up eating the same pies from the same oven. And the beers will taste just as good over stories of Eton and Cranwell, as they will over Scarborough Comp and Boulmer Naafi.
Most importantly, whatever cadre you may be from, you will never ultimately be rememered for how pretty your mess dress looked at the last Christmas Ball, but for the actions that you performed when times were tough, and the friends you made along the way.
Stop being pathetic, and work together, "real aircrew" or not.
CRPxGood
(Real Aircrew to the Shallow)
And there was me thinking that we were all on the same side, how naive.
A SAM won't differentiate between an FC brevet, or an AEOp Brevet. The hours will be the same whether you have a WSOp Badge or an AT Badge. You will all end up eating the same pies from the same oven. And the beers will taste just as good over stories of Eton and Cranwell, as they will over Scarborough Comp and Boulmer Naafi.
Most importantly, whatever cadre you may be from, you will never ultimately be rememered for how pretty your mess dress looked at the last Christmas Ball, but for the actions that you performed when times were tough, and the friends you made along the way.
Stop being pathetic, and work together, "real aircrew" or not.
CRPxGood
(Real Aircrew to the Shallow)
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Oh dear me Airwave Rider you are a tadge insecure me thinks.
I was simply giving some friendly advice to a poor chap/chapess who is at a crossroads in their career. Frankly I don't care what you FC's call yourself. I have bigger fish to fry (as does the rest of the RAF).
Captain Ratpup if you still have the option I would recommend ATC, but if you still can look into aircrew.
Ps FC's aren't aircrew. ( Helmet on, aruuga aruuga, incoming).=banter
For Bracketsew :- Banter n.good-humoured joking. v. joke thus. (Oxford Dictionary)
I was simply giving some friendly advice to a poor chap/chapess who is at a crossroads in their career. Frankly I don't care what you FC's call yourself. I have bigger fish to fry (as does the rest of the RAF).
Captain Ratpup if you still have the option I would recommend ATC, but if you still can look into aircrew.
Ps FC's aren't aircrew. ( Helmet on, aruuga aruuga, incoming).=banter
For Bracketsew :- Banter n.good-humoured joking. v. joke thus. (Oxford Dictionary)
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ratpup, FWIW, I would go ATC. Not because of the usual arguments but I think that this has more longevity both inside and outside of the services. I'm sure FC is a fine job, they certainly have some extremely capable operators and staff officers, it just seems a bit stovepiped (standing by for abuse regarding 3rd man, Air C2 etc etc). But the bottom line is that, as a junior, you will spend the vast majority of your career sitting in a CRC at either Boulmer or Scampton. Anyway, I supsect that in a few years time we will all be part of the same branch and, frankly, whatever direction you go in, it will be you , and not your branch, who decides how much you make of it.
The only 'aircrew' on an E3D are those directly responsible for keeping the bloody thing airborne. That means the pilots and associated flight deck types. Everyone else is 'Mission Crew'. Therefore, said chap who is ATC/AEO will bring far more to the party with his ATC skills rather then the years spent looking for submarines.
Last time I was on an E3D for a ride I seem to remember the FRC's for the Mission Crew were more or less 'Sit down, strap in and wait for the Captains Instructions', just like any other airliner.
I really hope we never go back to the Shackleton days when walking into the crew room was like walking into the waiting room at an Orthopaedic Clinic. Right person for the right job, whether that be ATC, FC, FJ or AEO.
And just to clarify my personal position, FC's are not, and never will be, Aircrew. The grown ups among them, and there are plenty, know this. The few who think they are will, inevitably, come down to earth with a bump soon enough (no Pun intended).
Ratpup.
PLEASE do not make your mind up based on the stuff written on here (inc mine!). Wait and see for yourself.
Last time I was on an E3D for a ride I seem to remember the FRC's for the Mission Crew were more or less 'Sit down, strap in and wait for the Captains Instructions', just like any other airliner.
I really hope we never go back to the Shackleton days when walking into the crew room was like walking into the waiting room at an Orthopaedic Clinic. Right person for the right job, whether that be ATC, FC, FJ or AEO.
And just to clarify my personal position, FC's are not, and never will be, Aircrew. The grown ups among them, and there are plenty, know this. The few who think they are will, inevitably, come down to earth with a bump soon enough (no Pun intended).
Ratpup.
PLEASE do not make your mind up based on the stuff written on here (inc mine!). Wait and see for yourself.
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Ratpup
Firstly, I have to agree with Wyler - do not decide on the basis of what you read here. Get yourself to Boulmer, Scampton, LATCC, Swanwick and a busy tower (depending where you live) and make your own mind up. If you are a genuine candidate, the AFCOs should be able to sort this out for you.
Secondly, much of what London Mil says makes sense, but I am not convinced by the line about ATC:
Neither the RAF ATC nor FC 'tickets' are transferrable to civvy street. However, if you do decide to go CAA ATCO, a background in either of these specialisations will get you the waiver for the upper age limit (even Surveillance Officer FCs get this), as it's relevant experience. Essentially, if you can read a radar picture you are already ahead of the ab initios.
As for the merger of FC/ATC this has been talked about since Pontious was a pilot, and whilst I agree that there are some shared skills, and there could be more shared training, the 2 jobs are very different. Also, both jobs deploy (FC more than ATC I believe) so they will both need blue suiters for the foreseeable future. For what it's worth, in my personal opinion, each of the specs would benefit from the occasional exchange - I know several ATCOs and FCs who agree with me on this.
STH
Firstly, I have to agree with Wyler - do not decide on the basis of what you read here. Get yourself to Boulmer, Scampton, LATCC, Swanwick and a busy tower (depending where you live) and make your own mind up. If you are a genuine candidate, the AFCOs should be able to sort this out for you.
Secondly, much of what London Mil says makes sense, but I am not convinced by the line about ATC:
this has more longevity both inside and outside of the services.
As for the merger of FC/ATC this has been talked about since Pontious was a pilot, and whilst I agree that there are some shared skills, and there could be more shared training, the 2 jobs are very different. Also, both jobs deploy (FC more than ATC I believe) so they will both need blue suiters for the foreseeable future. For what it's worth, in my personal opinion, each of the specs would benefit from the occasional exchange - I know several ATCOs and FCs who agree with me on this.
STH
Last edited by SirToppamHat; 22nd Feb 2007 at 19:22.
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Wyler,
I suggest that the next time you get an invite to fly, pay attention. As a CREW everyone has checks that they are responsible for, may I suggest that you were unaware that they were going on? As a Pax you were probably not even on headset, or if you were, only at the last moment.
Last time I was on an E3D for a ride I seem to remember the FRC's for the mission crew were more or less 'sit down, strap in and wait for the captains instructions', just like any other airliner
I suggest that the next time you get an invite to fly, pay attention. As a CREW everyone has checks that they are responsible for, may I suggest that you were unaware that they were going on? As a Pax you were probably not even on headset, or if you were, only at the last moment.
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Wyler
So what you are saying is that the Non-Commissioned Aircrew down the back are not aircrew?
What part of the phrase 'Non-Commissioned Aircrew' do you not get?
The only 'aircrew' on an E3D are those directly responsible for keeping the bloody thing airborne. That means the pilots and associated flight deck types. Everyone else is 'Mission Crew'.
What part of the phrase 'Non-Commissioned Aircrew' do you not get?
In that role yes, they are not functioning purely as 'aircrew'. They are part of the team that delivers the capability of the platform. In this case, a function that can be carried out as well, and in some instances, better by other specialists who are not part of the 'normal' aircrew cadre.
Hence my point that the ATC skills of the chap in question will probably be more use than his previous flying on the MPA fleet.
Whether this remains the same in the future as things evolve and change, remains to be seen.
Hence my point that the ATC skills of the chap in question will probably be more use than his previous flying on the MPA fleet.
Whether this remains the same in the future as things evolve and change, remains to be seen.
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Oh Dear
ASACS - Airborne Surveillance and Control System
ADGE - Air Defence Ground Environment
The newly revamped RAF Website shows the above 2 terms in the glossary. One should be consigned to history and the other is blatantly incorrect and contradicts itself againt individual units bios.
How will FC and TG12 ever come out of the cold war view engendered by others if the basics do not seem to be understood by others.
Wyler - top marks for your 'non-biased' view on this thread which was degenerating about as fast as any other when considering the nature of the bait!
ADGE - Air Defence Ground Environment
The newly revamped RAF Website shows the above 2 terms in the glossary. One should be consigned to history and the other is blatantly incorrect and contradicts itself againt individual units bios.
How will FC and TG12 ever come out of the cold war view engendered by others if the basics do not seem to be understood by others.
Wyler - top marks for your 'non-biased' view on this thread which was degenerating about as fast as any other when considering the nature of the bait!
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It's true that the mission crew are indeed involved in checks 'down the back'.
It's also true that a crew of 5: 2 Pilots, 1 Engineer, 1 Navigator and 1 Coms person could safely, legally and competently fly an E3 around the world with no input from anyone else should they happen to be on board. The other 13-odd folk on board can be crew, but they are not actually needed until the mission starts.
It's also true that a crew of 5: 2 Pilots, 1 Engineer, 1 Navigator and 1 Coms person could safely, legally and competently fly an E3 around the world with no input from anyone else should they happen to be on board. The other 13-odd folk on board can be crew, but they are not actually needed until the mission starts.
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Once the mission starts I'd be only too pleased to parachute safely to terra firma. It wouldn't be so bad if after flying for 8+ hours one ended somewhere with an Outback or some other place that served steaks with lobsters on top.