A flying Air Trafficer!!!!?????
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 398
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dukeyboy,
It is pma that have nominated said individual to be a surveillance operator (not controller), without any consultation whatsoever with Waddington. He will not be controlling, little interest in airspace (controllers again), and it is only because he is ex-NCA, therefore no need for the PET course (that is not available for the next course).
Yes, most people could be trained to be a surveillance operator, it is not always the most demanding job on the E-3, but the fact remains that there are aircrew filling ground posts that would welcome the chance to fly on the E-3. I would also re-iterate my earlier post that what the E-3D needs is NCO surv ops right now, not commissioned. PMA TAKE NOTE!!!
AFAIK said Air Trafficer was not even aware that he had been nominated for the course before it became (semi) public knowledge who he was.
Y_G
It is pma that have nominated said individual to be a surveillance operator (not controller), without any consultation whatsoever with Waddington. He will not be controlling, little interest in airspace (controllers again), and it is only because he is ex-NCA, therefore no need for the PET course (that is not available for the next course).
Yes, most people could be trained to be a surveillance operator, it is not always the most demanding job on the E-3, but the fact remains that there are aircrew filling ground posts that would welcome the chance to fly on the E-3. I would also re-iterate my earlier post that what the E-3D needs is NCO surv ops right now, not commissioned. PMA TAKE NOTE!!!
AFAIK said Air Trafficer was not even aware that he had been nominated for the course before it became (semi) public knowledge who he was.
Y_G
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 398
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dukey,
As you say, all pma are interested in is numbers, they are not concerned about getting the right person in the right post. This is not the only instance of pma "technically" doing the right thing, but if they would consult the experts perhaps they might come to a better decision.
Chances of that????
Y_G
As you say, all pma are interested in is numbers, they are not concerned about getting the right person in the right post. This is not the only instance of pma "technically" doing the right thing, but if they would consult the experts perhaps they might come to a better decision.
Chances of that????
Y_G
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I Know the Bloke!!
Having read this thread with great interest, being ex Maritime aircrew, I feel that I have to clarify details about the ATCO who will be on the course in April.
He is a fully qualified ATCO who also holds an AEOp brevet with some 3000+ flying hours (sorry I dont have access to his logbook!!). He has trained AEOps in the past before going ATC, and has done his time in "the sand pit" of Afganistan. He is a great guy with a family and I have known him since we joined Kipper Fleet in the early 80's. In fact he was my best man at my first wedding!!
He has really missed flying and this would seem to be the ideal posting for him and from a PMA point of view seems to tick all the boxes. I realise that the debate may rumble on regarding the role on the aircraft, but in my humble opinion the right man for the job, and I wish him well!! I wish I could get back in the mob and flying - still miss it dreadfully!!
Hope this clarifies things for all and sundry!!
UP THE KIPPER FLEET!!
He is a fully qualified ATCO who also holds an AEOp brevet with some 3000+ flying hours (sorry I dont have access to his logbook!!). He has trained AEOps in the past before going ATC, and has done his time in "the sand pit" of Afganistan. He is a great guy with a family and I have known him since we joined Kipper Fleet in the early 80's. In fact he was my best man at my first wedding!!
He has really missed flying and this would seem to be the ideal posting for him and from a PMA point of view seems to tick all the boxes. I realise that the debate may rumble on regarding the role on the aircraft, but in my humble opinion the right man for the job, and I wish him well!! I wish I could get back in the mob and flying - still miss it dreadfully!!
Hope this clarifies things for all and sundry!!
UP THE KIPPER FLEET!!
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: cornwall
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just get on with it
As an outsider looking in I think you should all grow up, work as a team and get the job done, If someone is qualified to do the job be it on a plane or on the ground let him do it, I don't see a problem, as long as you have a pilot to fly it I and a navigator to tell you where to go. I don't see the difference from the inside of a plane to the inside of a building.
Sorry!!
Sorry!!
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 868
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Except for the fact that buildings don't have mid-air emergencies or potentially go down behind enemy lines or fly in formation with other buildings or worry about evading hostile threats or have to make instant life threatening decisions...............
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Oxon
Age: 66
Posts: 1,942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Silly Monkey,
Have you read the very eloquent post from ProcATCO above. Contrast the INFORMED info he gives with your dribblings from 11th Feb at 12:39
He KNOWS the guy in question in the same sort of way I know Caz from another thread, amazing how a little bit of KNOWLEDGE can be useful
"This just goes to show how completely out of touch those incompetent fools at PMA really are. Obviously, this guy has a 'guiding light' somewhere high up for this to happen, but it nothing short of disgraceful.
The guy is NOT aircrew, and he will (almsot certainly) not have gone through aircrew selection - disgraceful and unfair to both him and his contempories alike. Likewise, he won't have to do the same survival courses or other training that ALL real aircrew have to go through and have to pass before they are able to continue, irrespective of their dicipline.
If people, from any background want to become aircrew, then they should be given all the encouragement, support and help possible in their quest. For someone like this to sneak in through the back door is shameful, and I just hope that he fails, not so much for him and the rest of us, but so that the lunatics down at the PMA assylum finally understand that the OASC at cranwell is there for a reason! And a reason that has worked for many years (and at Biggin prior to that!)
I'm boiling and need to take some medication!
TSM"
Do we hear an apology from the rest of you who agreed with TSM ??????????
Tsk Tsk Tsk stupid boy pike
Have you read the very eloquent post from ProcATCO above. Contrast the INFORMED info he gives with your dribblings from 11th Feb at 12:39
He KNOWS the guy in question in the same sort of way I know Caz from another thread, amazing how a little bit of KNOWLEDGE can be useful
"This just goes to show how completely out of touch those incompetent fools at PMA really are. Obviously, this guy has a 'guiding light' somewhere high up for this to happen, but it nothing short of disgraceful.
The guy is NOT aircrew, and he will (almsot certainly) not have gone through aircrew selection - disgraceful and unfair to both him and his contempories alike. Likewise, he won't have to do the same survival courses or other training that ALL real aircrew have to go through and have to pass before they are able to continue, irrespective of their dicipline.
If people, from any background want to become aircrew, then they should be given all the encouragement, support and help possible in their quest. For someone like this to sneak in through the back door is shameful, and I just hope that he fails, not so much for him and the rest of us, but so that the lunatics down at the PMA assylum finally understand that the OASC at cranwell is there for a reason! And a reason that has worked for many years (and at Biggin prior to that!)
I'm boiling and need to take some medication!
TSM"
Do we hear an apology from the rest of you who agreed with TSM ??????????
Tsk Tsk Tsk stupid boy pike
Last edited by Seldomfitforpurpose; 16th Feb 2007 at 02:04.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seldom,
My, my you truly are annoying aren't you. If you would have taken the time to read through this thread you would have gleaned that this is in no way similar to the thread on 'Caz' or whoever she is.
No one is attacking the ATCO in question! This is not a barrage of insults on a serving officer in the RAF. This is simply people questioning why an ATCO has been put into an Aircrew pic therefore keeping trained aircrew personnel behind desks, dropping pencils (as 'Caz' would have put it). It is questioning PMA Whilst I admit that some posts have deviated from the original question posed the main point still far out weighs these 'stray rants'. As a matter of fact a lot of people know the ATCO in question and he is a good egg but that doesn't excuse PMA for making this descision.
I suggest that you read through the thread again until you have grasped this very simple concept.
My, my you truly are annoying aren't you. If you would have taken the time to read through this thread you would have gleaned that this is in no way similar to the thread on 'Caz' or whoever she is.
No one is attacking the ATCO in question! This is not a barrage of insults on a serving officer in the RAF. This is simply people questioning why an ATCO has been put into an Aircrew pic therefore keeping trained aircrew personnel behind desks, dropping pencils (as 'Caz' would have put it). It is questioning PMA Whilst I admit that some posts have deviated from the original question posed the main point still far out weighs these 'stray rants'. As a matter of fact a lot of people know the ATCO in question and he is a good egg but that doesn't excuse PMA for making this descision.
I suggest that you read through the thread again until you have grasped this very simple concept.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: cornwall
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's why you have a pilot! and if you go down behind enemy lines you all know what to do, just like all people caught up in war..
I also believe the ATCO man has a brevet so that suggests to me that he has done your specialist training as you call it. Maybe you are just worried he may show you up!!!!
I also believe the ATCO man has a brevet so that suggests to me that he has done your specialist training as you call it. Maybe you are just worried he may show you up!!!!
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lincs
Posts: 695
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SFFP,
Have you heard of the 'Letherman'? - enuf said.
You really must try and learn to read what is written and NOT what you want to read or what you think is written.
IGAT has pretty much summed it all up, so I won't waste any more time on your pathetic bleatings. Get back in that Hercules or whatever you fly, and do us all a favour and head off into the wide blue yonder of Basra or wherever. You do look a fool.
As for my comments about the flying air trafficker, I would just suggest once again that you read all of what I said, and not take it 'out of context' like you feel the rest of us are doing with your girlie co-pilot. You would then have read that it is my belief that where ever possible, aircrew should fill aircrew slots, NOT retrain Air Traffickers.
TSM
Have you heard of the 'Letherman'? - enuf said.
You really must try and learn to read what is written and NOT what you want to read or what you think is written.
IGAT has pretty much summed it all up, so I won't waste any more time on your pathetic bleatings. Get back in that Hercules or whatever you fly, and do us all a favour and head off into the wide blue yonder of Basra or wherever. You do look a fool.
As for my comments about the flying air trafficker, I would just suggest once again that you read all of what I said, and not take it 'out of context' like you feel the rest of us are doing with your girlie co-pilot. You would then have read that it is my belief that where ever possible, aircrew should fill aircrew slots, NOT retrain Air Traffickers.
TSM
Guest
Posts: n/a
I was a RAF ATCO until a couple of years ago and would have loved the opportunity to have had a flying tour on the E3D or similar platform. That was never to be because I did not have the correct skill-sets and would never get the chance to acquire them - fair enough. However, this gentleman is ex-aircrew (whatever the definition of that is), has a bucket load of aircrew experience (3000hrs +) and just happens to now be an air trafficker. Maybe, just maybe, this guy brings the precise skill-sets that they (PMA) are looking for and is the best man for the job at this point in time.
Some of the more passionate aircrew responses beg the question: that if you are taking the "but he's not aircrew" approach to this guy, then the same must apply the other aircrew who have been away on multiple ground tours, then return to the fold? Where do you draw the line?
The bottom line is maybe this guy is indeed the best man for the job and deserves his place on the course, ATCO or not. I do not know the individual, but wish him all the best, because if some of the responses are anything to go by, it appears he may be in for a hard time. A triffle unfair if he is a good operator and comes up with the goods.
WJMcP
Some of the more passionate aircrew responses beg the question: that if you are taking the "but he's not aircrew" approach to this guy, then the same must apply the other aircrew who have been away on multiple ground tours, then return to the fold? Where do you draw the line?
The bottom line is maybe this guy is indeed the best man for the job and deserves his place on the course, ATCO or not. I do not know the individual, but wish him all the best, because if some of the responses are anything to go by, it appears he may be in for a hard time. A triffle unfair if he is a good operator and comes up with the goods.
WJMcP
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: cornwall
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't see the problem
I still can not see the problem with this one. This ATCO guy has 3000+ hours probably more then some aircrew.. HAS A BREVET! can do the same job on the ground and in the air.
The only problem I see is that he may show you up!!!
The only problem I see is that he may show you up!!!
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Oxon
Age: 66
Posts: 1,942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crikey TSM,
Even I didn't think you would have the front to reply with so much hostility having been caught with your pants down in the most embarrassing of fashions
You said
"This just goes to show how completely out of touch those incompetent fools at PMA really are"..................still think they are out of touch?
"The guy is NOT aircrew, and he will (almsot certainly) not have gone through aircrew selection "........Ex AEop with over 3000 hrs surely he must have gone through Biggin Hill or Cranwell for selection, do you still stand by your assertion?
" Likewise, he won't have to do the same survival courses or other training that ALL real aircrew have to go through and have to pass before they are able to continue, irrespective of their dicipline"............ Having completed AIC to go onto to qualify as an AEop then fly for over 3000 hours I reckon he must have done all the pre requisite survival training as his, and this is so priceless in the pompous way you say it, REAL Aircrew counterparts, but feel free to correct me if I am wrong
"For someone like this to sneak in through the back door is shameful, and I just hope that he fails, not so much for him and the rest of us, but so that the lunatics down at the PMA assylum finally understand that the OASC at cranwell is there for a reason! And a reason that has worked for many years (and at Biggin prior to that!)"..........I think if we are to believe ProcATCO's post that Lunatics at PMA may and I stress may have got it spot on!
IGAT,
I apologise fully if it appears on the face of it I was trying to hi jack this thread or even offer an opinion on a matter I have no trade knowledge about. With my trade specialisation I have absolutely nothing to offer with regards this particular debate however I was trying to directly question TSM with regards to his style of "shoot first questions later" posting.
Whilst some sort of acknowledgment from him as to the obvious error of his ways would be appreciated I fully expect a few more lines of insult from him rather than answers to the simple and pretty direct questions I have asked of him here. I will not bother you good folks again and leave you to debate this trade specific matter in peace.
Even I didn't think you would have the front to reply with so much hostility having been caught with your pants down in the most embarrassing of fashions
You said
"This just goes to show how completely out of touch those incompetent fools at PMA really are"..................still think they are out of touch?
"The guy is NOT aircrew, and he will (almsot certainly) not have gone through aircrew selection "........Ex AEop with over 3000 hrs surely he must have gone through Biggin Hill or Cranwell for selection, do you still stand by your assertion?
" Likewise, he won't have to do the same survival courses or other training that ALL real aircrew have to go through and have to pass before they are able to continue, irrespective of their dicipline"............ Having completed AIC to go onto to qualify as an AEop then fly for over 3000 hours I reckon he must have done all the pre requisite survival training as his, and this is so priceless in the pompous way you say it, REAL Aircrew counterparts, but feel free to correct me if I am wrong
"For someone like this to sneak in through the back door is shameful, and I just hope that he fails, not so much for him and the rest of us, but so that the lunatics down at the PMA assylum finally understand that the OASC at cranwell is there for a reason! And a reason that has worked for many years (and at Biggin prior to that!)"..........I think if we are to believe ProcATCO's post that Lunatics at PMA may and I stress may have got it spot on!
IGAT,
I apologise fully if it appears on the face of it I was trying to hi jack this thread or even offer an opinion on a matter I have no trade knowledge about. With my trade specialisation I have absolutely nothing to offer with regards this particular debate however I was trying to directly question TSM with regards to his style of "shoot first questions later" posting.
Whilst some sort of acknowledgment from him as to the obvious error of his ways would be appreciated I fully expect a few more lines of insult from him rather than answers to the simple and pretty direct questions I have asked of him here. I will not bother you good folks again and leave you to debate this trade specific matter in peace.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Clouseau's apartment block
Age: 57
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With apologies to Private Eye and tongue firmly in cheek, I recently received a document entitled "The Militant Voice" that I thought I would share....
Author: Flt Lt Dave Spart (Co-chair, Lincolnshire Chapter of the Socialist Allied Mission Crew and Weapons Systems Officers' Union):
Once again the reactionary fascist forces of the so-called Personnel Administration Agency have proved their willingness to undermine the industrial rights of the brothers within the Union to conduct their legitimate interests on behalf of themselves. By accepting a so-called Air Traffic Officer with the skills and ability to control aircraft …er…undermines the fundamental requirement to carry pine poles around Cranwell and thereby demonstrate the ability to think clearly and have proper airmanship. The fact that this individual may have alarmingly accrued..er…3000 hours of experience in a previous role totally undermines the right of the fellow union members to claim flying pay whilst being criminally detained in a non-flying job. We have decided to take this reprehensible case to the court of arbitration where we expect to be represented by the solicitor who previously acted successfully for Mr D Robinson in the car workers' dispute and Mr A Scargill in his glorious defeat of Thatcherism in the 1980s. This is the thin end of the wedge and smacks of similar dangerous precedents such as the derrick versus crane operators dispute that involved our brothers in the dockworkers union and the various successful printworkers disputes. All these actions were glorious successes hailed as overwhelming defeats of capitalism by the international fraternal socialist brothers, led by Mr F Castro. Our rights to exclude other non-Chapter members were undermined firstly by bringing in qualified fighter controllers and now this, qualified air traffic controllers. We expect to call on flying pickets from across the country to voice our displeasure at this disgraceful initiative. At this time of budgetary pressure, it is our duty to complain and whinge and do everything we can to undermine progress, innovation or lateral thinking. If we don’t block this, the next thing we know, the Army will be doing without us by buying UAVs and using satellites that would not be operated by legitimate aircrew. What do you mean that they are planning it already?
{Flt Lt Spart continues in this vein whilst frothing at the mouth for some time….}
Author: Flt Lt Dave Spart (Co-chair, Lincolnshire Chapter of the Socialist Allied Mission Crew and Weapons Systems Officers' Union):
Once again the reactionary fascist forces of the so-called Personnel Administration Agency have proved their willingness to undermine the industrial rights of the brothers within the Union to conduct their legitimate interests on behalf of themselves. By accepting a so-called Air Traffic Officer with the skills and ability to control aircraft …er…undermines the fundamental requirement to carry pine poles around Cranwell and thereby demonstrate the ability to think clearly and have proper airmanship. The fact that this individual may have alarmingly accrued..er…3000 hours of experience in a previous role totally undermines the right of the fellow union members to claim flying pay whilst being criminally detained in a non-flying job. We have decided to take this reprehensible case to the court of arbitration where we expect to be represented by the solicitor who previously acted successfully for Mr D Robinson in the car workers' dispute and Mr A Scargill in his glorious defeat of Thatcherism in the 1980s. This is the thin end of the wedge and smacks of similar dangerous precedents such as the derrick versus crane operators dispute that involved our brothers in the dockworkers union and the various successful printworkers disputes. All these actions were glorious successes hailed as overwhelming defeats of capitalism by the international fraternal socialist brothers, led by Mr F Castro. Our rights to exclude other non-Chapter members were undermined firstly by bringing in qualified fighter controllers and now this, qualified air traffic controllers. We expect to call on flying pickets from across the country to voice our displeasure at this disgraceful initiative. At this time of budgetary pressure, it is our duty to complain and whinge and do everything we can to undermine progress, innovation or lateral thinking. If we don’t block this, the next thing we know, the Army will be doing without us by buying UAVs and using satellites that would not be operated by legitimate aircrew. What do you mean that they are planning it already?
{Flt Lt Spart continues in this vein whilst frothing at the mouth for some time….}
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lincs
Posts: 695
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SFFP
Now don't try to be too clever here Dumbo. Up until a page ago, you, like me and the rest of us had no idea this guy was an ex AEOp, so calm down for goodness sake. As I've said to you before, you must learn to read the whole story, and with that I still stand by my comment about aircrew in AIRCREW slots, not groundcrew or otherwise.
So yes, I apologise because I didn't know he was ex aircrew and with hindsight I can see perehaps why PMA are 'experimenting' with him. However, there are still lots of AEOps stuck in ground jobs that want to get back to flying, as there are at ISK who would love a change, but cannot because of things like this.
See how easy it is to say 'sorry' when you make a mistake? Pas it on to Caz, unless of course.........................................you are Caz!!
TSM
ps any chance of you answering any of the questions put to you on a certain other topic or are you just going to ingnore them and hope they go away?
Now don't try to be too clever here Dumbo. Up until a page ago, you, like me and the rest of us had no idea this guy was an ex AEOp, so calm down for goodness sake. As I've said to you before, you must learn to read the whole story, and with that I still stand by my comment about aircrew in AIRCREW slots, not groundcrew or otherwise.
So yes, I apologise because I didn't know he was ex aircrew and with hindsight I can see perehaps why PMA are 'experimenting' with him. However, there are still lots of AEOps stuck in ground jobs that want to get back to flying, as there are at ISK who would love a change, but cannot because of things like this.
See how easy it is to say 'sorry' when you make a mistake? Pas it on to Caz, unless of course.........................................you are Caz!!
TSM
ps any chance of you answering any of the questions put to you on a certain other topic or are you just going to ingnore them and hope they go away?
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: cornwall
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How do
Can I ask if the ground crew feel the same as the aircrew, what with all these aircrew in ground crew jobs that are desperate to go flying again or are they just short of manpower in these areas that they need help from aircrew for a short period. After a ground crew job do you have to have specialist training again to go flying.
Guest
Posts: n/a
There are those who would say that this whole thread is about a bunch of plastic sgt sour grapes. Others have a far more circumspect view on the whole thing. My only further observation (FWIW as I have finished my Horlicks) is that I doubt PMA declared this one on their own. I'm pretty sure that various trade sponsors and people in the ISTAR side of the house would have been consulted.
Friday - off to the pub.
Friday - off to the pub.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: cornwall
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree
I agree as an outsider it reads more like children throwing tantrums, then the professional airmen that are supposed to be in the airforce.. Does it really matter at the end of the day as long as the job in hand gets done.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: 51°30'0N 0°8'60E
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FC or ATC?
Following on from this now somewhat tired debate, I'd be grateful for a piece of advice...
If you had to make a choice of either or, would you choose FC or ATC?
This is the choice I'm trying to make at the moment. FC offers a slim chance of some up in the air Waddo time but arguably naff tours between a handful of places 'up north'. There's also the prospect of 1ACC and some lovely green makeup. However, ATC get postings pretty much anywhere with a long strip of concrete and seem as a branch to be a bit more 'secure' and 'needed'. Pros and cons aside, both seem good in different ways to me but I can't make my mind up!
Please save me from flipping a coin. Also, I'm up in Boulmer on a fam mid-April and would welcome the chance to buy a pint in the mess to anyone willing to share their thoughts.
Ratpup
If you had to make a choice of either or, would you choose FC or ATC?
This is the choice I'm trying to make at the moment. FC offers a slim chance of some up in the air Waddo time but arguably naff tours between a handful of places 'up north'. There's also the prospect of 1ACC and some lovely green makeup. However, ATC get postings pretty much anywhere with a long strip of concrete and seem as a branch to be a bit more 'secure' and 'needed'. Pros and cons aside, both seem good in different ways to me but I can't make my mind up!
Please save me from flipping a coin. Also, I'm up in Boulmer on a fam mid-April and would welcome the chance to buy a pint in the mess to anyone willing to share their thoughts.
Ratpup