Motion: This Government is imperilling the UK
Does anyone have the suspicion which I've long harboured that there was someting 'fishy' with the last GE results; I know opinion polls said basically Labour win, but not by such a large margin. Could the results have been 'manipulated' in any way by the winning party?
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 664
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You've been spotted, you mutinous dogs!
Armed forces face Brown's fury
By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent, Sunday Telegraph
Last Updated: 12:29am GMT 07/01/2007
Defence chiefs believe that the Armed Forces are now viewed by senior Labour figures as a "Tory organisation", leaving them at risk of incurring the wrath of Gordon Brown, the Chancellor.
Senior officers fear that relations with Labour are so bad that the Chief of the Defence Staff will have to issue official orders at senior level, banning the leaking of stories damaging to the Government.
Months of unofficial briefings by senior commanders have sparked increasing fears that the Ministry of Defence will be left the "poor relations" of Government spending, with defence budgets slashed during this year's Comprehensive Spending Review.
The crisis has been fuelled in recent months by a deluge of leaked documents and a series of bitter attacks on the Government's defence policy by senior military figures, complaining that the Armed Forces are under-resourced but over-committed on operations around the world.
Defence chiefs are also understood to be deeply concerned that the leaking of documents will appear to the wider Labour Party as part of a "corporate strategy" to extract more money from the Treasury ahead of the review.
Defence chiefs believe that the military's fondness for traditional values and conservative tendencies have left them with very few friends within the Labour hierarchy. Mr Brown, who is preparing to succeed Tony Blair as Prime Minister, is known to regard the MoD as one of the most "financially wasteful" departments within the Government and is understood to hold the personal view that the military is a pro-Tory organisation.
Only John Reid, who served as both a minister for the Armed Forces and as defence secretary, is understood to have had a fruitful working relationship with the military.
Liam Fox, the shadow defence secretary, said that it was "disgusting but predictable" that Labour should treat the problems within defence as a party political issue rather than a national issue.
The recent level of leaked stories from within the MoD is regarded as so "grave" that Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, the Chief of the Defence Staff, plans to issue a communique to the three heads of the Armed Forces ordering them to clamp down on leaks and unofficial briefings because they damage the military's reputation for being non-political.
It can also be revealed that MoD officials are threatening to launch leak inquires similar to that which exposed Dr David Kelly, the scientist who committed suicide after claiming that the Government had "sexed up" its dossier on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.
Documents leaked last week showed that half of the Royal Navy fleet is to be mothballed, that there will be no officer promotions in the Navy for five years and that the Army has been forced to raise the maximum age of new recruits from 26 to 33 in an attempt to stave off a recruiting crisis.
Over the past few months, in what is called the military's "autumn of discontent", virtually every area of the Services, from the treatment of injured soldiers to the appalling state of accommodation, has come under public scrutiny.
Details of plans to cancel parachute training for four years as part of a £1 billion cost-cutting programme were leaked to The Sunday Telegraph last month. The officer who provided details said he felt "morally obliged to act because the Government was not listening to the military".
A senior MoD source said: "The leaking going on is severely damaging and there are people within the Treasury who now view the military as pro-Tory and that is going to have an impact on budgets. We all understand the frustration of those who leak documents to the press, but they ought to consider the consequences of their actions."
Patrick Mercer, the Tory spokesman for homeland security who was an infantry commanding officer, said: "The Armed Forces are not a political organisation but they have simply had enough of being treated with contempt by this Government."
Mr Fox said: "The reason that leaks are appearing is because of the build-up of frustration and anger in the Armed Forces about the way in which Labour are increasingly willing to commit our forces to combat without giving the support they require.
"These are men and women who are prepared to pay the ultimate price for this country's security but who have been betrayed by a Government which is possibly the most self-serving and party political in our history."
Armed forces face Brown's fury
By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent, Sunday Telegraph
Last Updated: 12:29am GMT 07/01/2007
Defence chiefs believe that the Armed Forces are now viewed by senior Labour figures as a "Tory organisation", leaving them at risk of incurring the wrath of Gordon Brown, the Chancellor.
Senior officers fear that relations with Labour are so bad that the Chief of the Defence Staff will have to issue official orders at senior level, banning the leaking of stories damaging to the Government.
Months of unofficial briefings by senior commanders have sparked increasing fears that the Ministry of Defence will be left the "poor relations" of Government spending, with defence budgets slashed during this year's Comprehensive Spending Review.
The crisis has been fuelled in recent months by a deluge of leaked documents and a series of bitter attacks on the Government's defence policy by senior military figures, complaining that the Armed Forces are under-resourced but over-committed on operations around the world.
Defence chiefs are also understood to be deeply concerned that the leaking of documents will appear to the wider Labour Party as part of a "corporate strategy" to extract more money from the Treasury ahead of the review.
Defence chiefs believe that the military's fondness for traditional values and conservative tendencies have left them with very few friends within the Labour hierarchy. Mr Brown, who is preparing to succeed Tony Blair as Prime Minister, is known to regard the MoD as one of the most "financially wasteful" departments within the Government and is understood to hold the personal view that the military is a pro-Tory organisation.
Only John Reid, who served as both a minister for the Armed Forces and as defence secretary, is understood to have had a fruitful working relationship with the military.
Liam Fox, the shadow defence secretary, said that it was "disgusting but predictable" that Labour should treat the problems within defence as a party political issue rather than a national issue.
The recent level of leaked stories from within the MoD is regarded as so "grave" that Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, the Chief of the Defence Staff, plans to issue a communique to the three heads of the Armed Forces ordering them to clamp down on leaks and unofficial briefings because they damage the military's reputation for being non-political.
It can also be revealed that MoD officials are threatening to launch leak inquires similar to that which exposed Dr David Kelly, the scientist who committed suicide after claiming that the Government had "sexed up" its dossier on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.
Documents leaked last week showed that half of the Royal Navy fleet is to be mothballed, that there will be no officer promotions in the Navy for five years and that the Army has been forced to raise the maximum age of new recruits from 26 to 33 in an attempt to stave off a recruiting crisis.
Over the past few months, in what is called the military's "autumn of discontent", virtually every area of the Services, from the treatment of injured soldiers to the appalling state of accommodation, has come under public scrutiny.
Details of plans to cancel parachute training for four years as part of a £1 billion cost-cutting programme were leaked to The Sunday Telegraph last month. The officer who provided details said he felt "morally obliged to act because the Government was not listening to the military".
A senior MoD source said: "The leaking going on is severely damaging and there are people within the Treasury who now view the military as pro-Tory and that is going to have an impact on budgets. We all understand the frustration of those who leak documents to the press, but they ought to consider the consequences of their actions."
Patrick Mercer, the Tory spokesman for homeland security who was an infantry commanding officer, said: "The Armed Forces are not a political organisation but they have simply had enough of being treated with contempt by this Government."
Mr Fox said: "The reason that leaks are appearing is because of the build-up of frustration and anger in the Armed Forces about the way in which Labour are increasingly willing to commit our forces to combat without giving the support they require.
"These are men and women who are prepared to pay the ultimate price for this country's security but who have been betrayed by a Government which is possibly the most self-serving and party political in our history."
AT wrote:
Mr Brown, who is preparing to succeed Tony Blair as Prime Minister, is known to regard the MoD as one of the most "financially wasteful" departments within the Government and is understood to hold the personal view that the military is a pro-Tory organisation.
I think this is pot kettle black as the government is the biggest waster of taxpayers money with the NHS a close second, particulary if you look at money used against results.
Also does it not strike you as funny that this concern over the leaks that are straining relationships between the government and services brings about a leak of a possible plan to issue a communique to the three heads of the Armed Forces ordering them to clamp down on leaks and unofficial briefings because they damage the military's reputation for being non-political.
Mr Brown, who is preparing to succeed Tony Blair as Prime Minister, is known to regard the MoD as one of the most "financially wasteful" departments within the Government and is understood to hold the personal view that the military is a pro-Tory organisation.
I think this is pot kettle black as the government is the biggest waster of taxpayers money with the NHS a close second, particulary if you look at money used against results.
Also does it not strike you as funny that this concern over the leaks that are straining relationships between the government and services brings about a leak of a possible plan to issue a communique to the three heads of the Armed Forces ordering them to clamp down on leaks and unofficial briefings because they damage the military's reputation for being non-political.
Agree with exrigger; the government's solution to all problems (apart from MOD) is throw money at it; it comes out of taxpayers pockets, that's why we're taxed to the hilt; any further shortfall is made up by cutting the defence budget.
Then they vote themselves inflation busting pay rises!
Then they vote themselves inflation busting pay rises!
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Temporarily missing from the Joe Louis Arena
Posts: 2,131
Received 27 Likes
on
16 Posts
Strange how this government views the military as so 'pro-Tory'. Back when I were a mere whipper snapper at RAF Locking I was on guard the week when the present government came to power and of all the personnel in the guardroom I was the only one not to vote Labour.
Perhaps what the military is is not 'pro-Tory' but 'pro-continual useful existence'. I know I'd like to believe that if another Falklands were to happen tomorrow that we in the military would be able to swing into action and do what the general public would expect us to do. Unfortunately we are being continually hamstrung by the holders of the purse and the action of 'us' biting the hand that fails to feed us was inevitable.
I don't fully blame the government for their inability to understand the military psyche though. Labour is a party joined at the hip with the CS and it may be that the Labour party believes all in public service display the same attitudes, military personnel included.
Perhaps what the military is is not 'pro-Tory' but 'pro-continual useful existence'. I know I'd like to believe that if another Falklands were to happen tomorrow that we in the military would be able to swing into action and do what the general public would expect us to do. Unfortunately we are being continually hamstrung by the holders of the purse and the action of 'us' biting the hand that fails to feed us was inevitable.
I don't fully blame the government for their inability to understand the military psyche though. Labour is a party joined at the hip with the CS and it may be that the Labour party believes all in public service display the same attitudes, military personnel included.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Agree with exrigger; the government's solution to all problems (apart from MOD) is throw money at it; it comes out of taxpayers pockets, that's why we're taxed to the hilt; any further shortfall is made up by cutting the defence budget.
Then they vote themselves inflation busting pay rises!
Then they vote themselves inflation busting pay rises!
Problem is, it is not coming from the publics pockets. In fact, most has either has been borrowed, or they have created a much greater money supply (M4) by printing more notes. All at a time of prolonged growth, when they should actually be paying it off. We currently pay around 28 Bn in servicing debts created by the government. The armed forces budget is only greater than this by 4 Bn. Great hey? Great legacy to leave the nation.
I would seriously worried about this nation's economy as a whole and how the hell this nation is going to function after global IRs return to the long-term norm.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Coup D'Etat? Don't make me laugh! The Armed Forces aren't strong enough nowadays
Probably, and sadly that is true. However, one has to look at the "opposition" and as our glorious Government couldn't organise a gang bang in a brothel, it's just possible that even our neutered senior officers could mount a reasonable challenge to them........ Couldn't they?
mbga9pgf wrote:
Problem is, it is not coming from the publics pockets. In fact, most has either has been borrowed, or they have created a much greater money supply (M4) by printing more notes. All at a time of prolonged growth, when they should actually be paying it off. We currently pay around 28 Bn in servicing debts created by the government.
Ultimately it still comes out of our taxes, hidden and direct, to pay for the governments mis-management of the countries finances, this how they pay the '28 Bn in servicing debts created by the government'. They cannot sustain producing money as written above as they will spiral into recession/bankruptcy, hence lets find excuses to increase taxes to help limit the debt damage that we have caused.
Problem is, it is not coming from the publics pockets. In fact, most has either has been borrowed, or they have created a much greater money supply (M4) by printing more notes. All at a time of prolonged growth, when they should actually be paying it off. We currently pay around 28 Bn in servicing debts created by the government.
Ultimately it still comes out of our taxes, hidden and direct, to pay for the governments mis-management of the countries finances, this how they pay the '28 Bn in servicing debts created by the government'. They cannot sustain producing money as written above as they will spiral into recession/bankruptcy, hence lets find excuses to increase taxes to help limit the debt damage that we have caused.
As an aside to all the threads that have comments re the government and if the chancellor takes over from Bliar before the next election what difference this will make to the services and country, I thought that if a leader steps down/dies that the deputy leader takes over. Where did we vote for somebody else to take over, surely there should be a referendum or an immediate election. Or does this government now believe it is above all this and can do what they like, sorry I have just answered my own question.
Thread Starter
Given the widely reported antipathy of G Brown (and his Treasury minions) to the Armed Forces, if we think funding and shortages etc are bad now, just wait until he steps into Bliar's shoes.............
Possible PM Brown scenario:-
He will retain Trident and it's successor in order to keep the UK's seat at the top table but everything else (future carriers, JSF, later batches of Typhoon etc etc) will be savagely pruned. He will extricate the UK from Iraq and Afghanistan as soon as he can. Not for ideological reasons but to justify further 'savings' on the defence budget so that more money can be thrown at the NHS and education. We will, as already postulated by a very senior Naval chap, end up with a coastal defence force and little else (apart from Trident).
......takes shelter, stands-by for incoming.
Possible PM Brown scenario:-
He will retain Trident and it's successor in order to keep the UK's seat at the top table but everything else (future carriers, JSF, later batches of Typhoon etc etc) will be savagely pruned. He will extricate the UK from Iraq and Afghanistan as soon as he can. Not for ideological reasons but to justify further 'savings' on the defence budget so that more money can be thrown at the NHS and education. We will, as already postulated by a very senior Naval chap, end up with a coastal defence force and little else (apart from Trident).
......takes shelter, stands-by for incoming.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: W. Sussex
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a response to the first post, I'm not so concerned about the damage that anyone else could do to this country, although what Labour are doing to the Forces is simply criminal, as I am about the damage that the government is doing to this country. What they've caused and created in this country will take years, maybe even decades to rectify. I for one am gradually becoming slightly embarrassed about living here.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 664
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All this talk of Gay Gordon being the next PM of the UK may be slightly misplaced. The Scottish elections next year may well show contituencies finally wake up where for years you could put up a chimp with a Labour rosette and see it get elected.
As the SNP is the natural opposition here, Gordon may be the last UK Prime Minister!
As the SNP is the natural opposition here, Gordon may be the last UK Prime Minister!
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Scotland
Posts: 425
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chevron,
So what if it was?
Do you really think the other lot would have done anything the least bit different?
Cheers
BHR
Do you really think the other lot would have done anything the least bit different?
Cheers
BHR
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: portsmouth
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please, please, please God - let this be the final nail in the coffin of the current administration. I was in a (pompey) pub this evening and a civilian friend asked me when the military would have the balls to take over running the country!!!!!!!!
What on earth is going on so that the administration are so far out of touch that the ordinary man in the street is asking when there will be a coup - not suggesting this is a good idea, but at some point in the near future the balloon will burst - sign all the petitions you can guys, we MUST at least make some attempt to let these buffoons that what they are doing is foolish, short sighted, near termist - but most of all DANGEROUS.
God bless this country - his blessing, may be needed!
What on earth is going on so that the administration are so far out of touch that the ordinary man in the street is asking when there will be a coup - not suggesting this is a good idea, but at some point in the near future the balloon will burst - sign all the petitions you can guys, we MUST at least make some attempt to let these buffoons that what they are doing is foolish, short sighted, near termist - but most of all DANGEROUS.
God bless this country - his blessing, may be needed!
Rebel PPRuNer
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Toronto, Canada (formerly EICK)
Age: 51
Posts: 2,834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Online petitions don't do a damn thing in my view. More MPs with time in the service do more - in all parties. Stand for nomination at all levels - especially for local councils with military bases. To my mind Ashdown got far more attention because of his service record than his ability as a politician probably merited.
I note that in the US, most of the Democratic Congressional gains in the recent election have been made by men with records in police, CIA, FBI or the Armed Forces who were specially sought out by Democratic recruiters (NYT, free reg required).
I note that in the US, most of the Democratic Congressional gains in the recent election have been made by men with records in police, CIA, FBI or the Armed Forces who were specially sought out by Democratic recruiters (NYT, free reg required).
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Southeast USA
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/savethenavy/#detail
For those uncomfortable with openly calling for a coup, this one seems to be gaining some momentum.
For those uncomfortable with openly calling for a coup, this one seems to be gaining some momentum.