How Many Aircraft has the RAF Shot Down since Korea?
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How Many Aircraft has the RAF Shot Down since Korea?
This question is similar to one already posted on Arrse but its a very interesting one. Obviously there were RAF Harrier pilots in the Falklands but they were navy aircraft I believe.
Does the Tally include own side goals?
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I know. Was suggesting that LH rephrase his reply in the light of Hoodies advice. Sorry, maybe I was being a bit too obscure. I'll try to stick to statements of the bleedin' obvious from now on
The Phantom splashed the Jag over Germany, didn't it? I presume the Jag mate went Martin-Baker in short order.
Any confirmation on the GR4 LGB 'shoot-down' or is it some urban myth I've fallen for?
I know. Was suggesting that LH rephrase his reply in the light of Hoodies advice. Sorry, maybe I was being a bit too obscure. I'll try to stick to statements of the bleedin' obvious from now on
The Phantom splashed the Jag over Germany, didn't it? I presume the Jag mate went Martin-Baker in short order.
Any confirmation on the GR4 LGB 'shoot-down' or is it some urban myth I've fallen for?
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This question has already been exhaustively thrashed around on PPruNe by blokes who know what they are talking about. Why should we give a XXXX what that lot are saying over on the other channel?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
If the ownership of the aircraft is so important, I take it that it is now a given that any operations undetaken by GR7/9, regardless of markings and pilot service, will be credited to the RAF? 
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No need to take it to heart guys. I was simply looking to find out how many aircraft the RAF has shot down since Korea. I thought you guys might know a bit more about it than Arrse.
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The last RAF air-to-air kill in an RAF aircraft
I think this topic has been done to death many times on Prune. Anyway here's what I wrote last time it emerged:
If you discount the rumours regarding a Javelin of 60 Sqn downing an Indonesian C-130 and a 20 Sqn Hunter having a manoeuvre kill against an Indonesian MiG-17 in the mid 1960s and also discount the 92 Sqn F4 v 31 Sqn Jaguar incident on 25 May 82, then I believe you have to go a long way back to find the last completely RAF air-to-air kill.
As far as I am aware, the last RAF pilot flying an RAF aircraft to achieve an air-to-air kill was Fg Off Tim McElhaw of 208 Sqn on 22 May 48. The sqn were based at Ramat David, to the southeast of Haifa, covering the final withdrawal of British Forces from Palestine following the declaration of the state of Israel on 14 May 48. Hostilities had already broken out between the Israelis and the surrounding Arab states, then on 22 May 48 at 0610 hrs two Egyptian LF9 Spitfires attacked the RAF base at Ramat David, presumably mistaking it for an Israeli base. The Spitfires strafed the Spitfires FR18s of 32 and 208 Sqns that were parked in two neat lines, destroying two and damaging another eight. Nobody was injured in the initial attack despite a number of bombs also being dropped on the airfield.
The majority of the pilots of 32 and 208 Sqns were recovering from a severe hangover when the initial attacked occurred, having enjoyed a particularly exuberant Dining In Night at which it had been decided that the Officers’ Mess would be burnt to the ground on the final departure to prevent it falling into the hands of the Israelis. After the initial attack two pilots of 208 Sqn (Fg Offs Geoff Cooper and Roy Bowie) got airborne in Spitfire FR18s and mounted a standing patrol over the airfield. At 0710 hrs three more Egyptian LF9 Spitfires returned to attack the airfield again, destroying a Dakota that was attempting to land, killing two of the crew. Cooper and Bowie shot down one Egyptian LF9 each, the third was shot down by the combined fire of two RAF Regiment Bren Gunners, Sgt Atkinson and AC Waind.
At 0930 two Egyptain LF9s decided to stage a third attack on Ramat David. This time Fg Tim Off McElhaw and Fg Off Hully of 208 Sqn had taken over the standing patrol. Fg Off McElhaw flying Spitfire FR18 TZ228 managed to intercept and shoot down both LF9s, despite this incident being the first time he had ever done any air-to-air firing.
Tim McElhaw is still alive, along with Roy Bowie – I have no idea what happened to Geoff Cooper after he retired as the aviation correspondent of the Daily Telegraph or Hully. The above details form part of an article I had published in the Jan/Feb 2005 edition of Air Enthusiast and can be viewed at: www.spyflight.co.uk/iafvraf.htm.
So in answer to the question, since the Korean War started in 1950, to the best of my knowledge there has not been an air-to-air kill by an RAF pilot in an RAF aircraft since the Korean War.
Heimdall
If you discount the rumours regarding a Javelin of 60 Sqn downing an Indonesian C-130 and a 20 Sqn Hunter having a manoeuvre kill against an Indonesian MiG-17 in the mid 1960s and also discount the 92 Sqn F4 v 31 Sqn Jaguar incident on 25 May 82, then I believe you have to go a long way back to find the last completely RAF air-to-air kill.
As far as I am aware, the last RAF pilot flying an RAF aircraft to achieve an air-to-air kill was Fg Off Tim McElhaw of 208 Sqn on 22 May 48. The sqn were based at Ramat David, to the southeast of Haifa, covering the final withdrawal of British Forces from Palestine following the declaration of the state of Israel on 14 May 48. Hostilities had already broken out between the Israelis and the surrounding Arab states, then on 22 May 48 at 0610 hrs two Egyptian LF9 Spitfires attacked the RAF base at Ramat David, presumably mistaking it for an Israeli base. The Spitfires strafed the Spitfires FR18s of 32 and 208 Sqns that were parked in two neat lines, destroying two and damaging another eight. Nobody was injured in the initial attack despite a number of bombs also being dropped on the airfield.
The majority of the pilots of 32 and 208 Sqns were recovering from a severe hangover when the initial attacked occurred, having enjoyed a particularly exuberant Dining In Night at which it had been decided that the Officers’ Mess would be burnt to the ground on the final departure to prevent it falling into the hands of the Israelis. After the initial attack two pilots of 208 Sqn (Fg Offs Geoff Cooper and Roy Bowie) got airborne in Spitfire FR18s and mounted a standing patrol over the airfield. At 0710 hrs three more Egyptian LF9 Spitfires returned to attack the airfield again, destroying a Dakota that was attempting to land, killing two of the crew. Cooper and Bowie shot down one Egyptian LF9 each, the third was shot down by the combined fire of two RAF Regiment Bren Gunners, Sgt Atkinson and AC Waind.
At 0930 two Egyptain LF9s decided to stage a third attack on Ramat David. This time Fg Tim Off McElhaw and Fg Off Hully of 208 Sqn had taken over the standing patrol. Fg Off McElhaw flying Spitfire FR18 TZ228 managed to intercept and shoot down both LF9s, despite this incident being the first time he had ever done any air-to-air firing.
Tim McElhaw is still alive, along with Roy Bowie – I have no idea what happened to Geoff Cooper after he retired as the aviation correspondent of the Daily Telegraph or Hully. The above details form part of an article I had published in the Jan/Feb 2005 edition of Air Enthusiast and can be viewed at: www.spyflight.co.uk/iafvraf.htm.
So in answer to the question, since the Korean War started in 1950, to the best of my knowledge there has not been an air-to-air kill by an RAF pilot in an RAF aircraft since the Korean War.
Heimdall
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And how much has it cost us to buy, maintain and fly these air to air fighters for 50 years, to not actually shoot anything down?
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Glum, surely you are not suggesting that just because these aircraft never had the opportunity to shoot down anything that we shouldn't have had them? They were kept fairly busy doing QRA against Russki aircraft during the Cold War as I remember.
Did any Chieftan tank ever fight another tank? Apart from the 'Cod War' how actively employed were the RN's ships, prior to the Falklands? Or since for that matter?
It's all about maintaining a capability, as most wars (Iraq excepted) tend to creep up on us without much warning. Even the Battle of Britain was a late spot by most strategic planners, although Dowding saw it coming, luckily for all of us. (No c**p about the RN winning that show, please!)
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It is fair to ask 'how many' but unfair to imply that the answer indicates money not well spent. Without the capability to defend our forces or bases from air attack, our assets would be easy prey to anybody with the means to attack. It would also be an open invitation to any terrorist with access to an aircraft.
The secret is getting the right balance in spending between offence and defence and our new multi-role wonder jet should redress any imbalance when it is ready to do something useful.
The secret is getting the right balance in spending between offence and defence and our new multi-role wonder jet should redress any imbalance when it is ready to do something useful.
Last edited by soddim; 3rd Jan 2007 at 18:21.