F-105
"Now explain why having a gun is not necessary!'
Because the AAMs of the day had a Pk approximately equivalent to that of a rolled-up newspaper. Except of course for the AIR-2 Genie, which had a Pk of 2.0.
Because the AAMs of the day had a Pk approximately equivalent to that of a rolled-up newspaper. Except of course for the AIR-2 Genie, which had a Pk of 2.0.
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What ever is aid about the 105 - I did not have the pleasure to fly this bird. But I saw the bird at takeoff and heared the sound of the "exploding" burner! Impressive.
My F-4 sounded more like a catīs meow!
My F-4 sounded more like a catīs meow!
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I don't know if this is one of the same Thuds as mentioned by SASLess but the combat report went something like this:
The mission was briefed for 4x4 ship north of the DMZ and was ingressing at 300k at 16k. Charlie, in a single Mig 21 was identified by AEW and called in to the formation. The Mig was at 21k on a 180 at 700k. As the Mig rolled in to attack, Atoll from 6 o'clock 2 miles, one of the trail formation identified the intended target and called the bandit but due to excessive R/T chatter the target aircraft did not get the call.
After launch the Mig 21 exited north and disengaged. His target was the No 3 in one of the lead formations and it was believed that the Mig had been visual with only this formation.
The target aircraft was hit by an atoll missile in the starboard side of the jet pipe below the stabliator and detonated. The expanding rod warhead was contained by the steel jet pipe and all the pilot noticed was a momentary fluctation in his JPT. The mission was continued and the aircraft recovered with the rocket motor protruding from the side of the aircraft.
The mission was briefed for 4x4 ship north of the DMZ and was ingressing at 300k at 16k. Charlie, in a single Mig 21 was identified by AEW and called in to the formation. The Mig was at 21k on a 180 at 700k. As the Mig rolled in to attack, Atoll from 6 o'clock 2 miles, one of the trail formation identified the intended target and called the bandit but due to excessive R/T chatter the target aircraft did not get the call.
After launch the Mig 21 exited north and disengaged. His target was the No 3 in one of the lead formations and it was believed that the Mig had been visual with only this formation.
The target aircraft was hit by an atoll missile in the starboard side of the jet pipe below the stabliator and detonated. The expanding rod warhead was contained by the steel jet pipe and all the pilot noticed was a momentary fluctation in his JPT. The mission was continued and the aircraft recovered with the rocket motor protruding from the side of the aircraft.
The first was with Thorsen when he got his Medal of Honor. Hoeft took an 85mm round up through his wing. He had a picture of him standing IN the wing. They bolted on steel plates and flew the airplane to Taiwan to repair it. During tests, the wing failed at about 3Gs. Hoeft said he was lucky he did a straight in when RTB..
The second was Doug Beyers (sp?). Beyers brought the missile home with a dud warhead. Beyers had a picture of him standing beside the Thud with the missile dangling from the Thud.
On my two tours to Thailand in -135s, we refueled a lot of Weasels. The main thing was to always ensure the pumps were off for a disconnect as the intake on the Air Cycle Machine was near the receptable and if there was any spray, the Thud driver could get doused and that didn't make for a happy fellow.
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I believe a shortage of 105 drivers led to a large number of AT and 135 pilots being given crossovers to onto the Thud. They then suffered heavy losses due to their inexperience with the jet.
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WD3,
I seem to recall the 85mm hit but the atoll hit was definitely not a dud. The expanding rod was contained my the jet pipe skin.
I seem to recall the 85mm hit but the atoll hit was definitely not a dud. The expanding rod was contained my the jet pipe skin.
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Research shows 62-4434 was shot down over Laos with the pilot ejecting. The pilot died enroute after being rescued.
4428 started off as an -F but was converted to a G. The last listing is the gate guard at Croughton. No combat history found but if it was a G it is very unlikely it sat on the sidelines.
Here is a picture of 4428 and it appears she served with the GA ANG.
http://www.cybermodeler.net/aircraft...105g_24428.jpg
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Also, since the Buff crews had a cushy job pulling alert in the US all the load was falling on TAC.
The solution, and the effect, was as you suggested. Not just lack of experience on the jet but lack of the whole single pilot tac stuff.
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WD3, no idea but I do remember the mission report vividly.
Another report, this time sanitised as it was a year or so earlier, related the experiences of a jet-jockey who evaded a number of Guidelines. He did 'this', then he did 'that' and so on. As we read on, counting the engagements off, the article stopped describing his evasive tactics after a dozen or so, In all we made it a count of 21.
Now this could have been any type. At the time we had not heard of the weasel or that type of mission.
If it was a weasel sortie it must have had one hell of an AUW at take-ff to get those balls airborne.
Another report, this time sanitised as it was a year or so earlier, related the experiences of a jet-jockey who evaded a number of Guidelines. He did 'this', then he did 'that' and so on. As we read on, counting the engagements off, the article stopped describing his evasive tactics after a dozen or so, In all we made it a count of 21.
Now this could have been any type. At the time we had not heard of the weasel or that type of mission.
If it was a weasel sortie it must have had one hell of an AUW at take-ff to get those balls airborne.
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F-105 was so big and heavy and needed so much runway
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When the F-105 was first designed, it was, pure and simple, TAC's purpose-built nuclear bomber. Starved for funds by the then more glamorous SAC, TAC needed to compete.
Unlike the F-100 and others pressed into nuke deliveries, the -105's fast and low design, as well as its cavernous internal bomb bay (Buccaneer anyone?!), was optimized for the tactical nuclear role.
Unlike the F-100 and others pressed into nuke deliveries, the -105's fast and low design, as well as its cavernous internal bomb bay (Buccaneer anyone?!), was optimized for the tactical nuclear role.
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Story we heard at the time was that the USAF was run along the lines of once in SAC always in SAC, once on B47s always on B47s. When the 1600 B47s were retired there were an awful lot of spare aircrew with no need to transfer them to the Buff.
Also, since the Buff crews had a cushy job pulling alert in the US all the load was falling on TAC.
The solution, and the effect, was as you suggested. Not just lack of experience on the jet but lack of the whole single pilot tac stuff.
Also, since the Buff crews had a cushy job pulling alert in the US all the load was falling on TAC.
The solution, and the effect, was as you suggested. Not just lack of experience on the jet but lack of the whole single pilot tac stuff.
Fortunately for me, when the IG came in, I didn't write the EP *verbatim* and it was considered a bust. To punish me, they sent me to Thailand. I told them had I know this was the punishment, I could have screwed up a lot earlier to the benefit of everyone.
And yes, my -38 instructor came out of BUFs to Thuds (improbable path) but turned out to be a real tiger.
And as for once a SAC 'asset', always a SAC asset, correct. I had a volunteer statement in for a second tour (the two 3 month Thai tours didn't count) and I was told, "Give it up..you've got your ticket punched and you're going NOWHERE." Even when a friend of mine (wife and 2 kids) got an OV-10 and wanted out of the assignment, I called and said he could stay and I would take the assignment, they said, "You don't get it.. you're going nowhere!" And they asked me many times in the months before I left the USAF why I didn't want to stay. DUH....
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WD3, no idea but I do remember the mission report vividly.
Another report, this time sanitised as it was a year or so earlier, related the experiences of a jet-jockey who evaded a number of Guidelines. He did 'this', then he did 'that' and so on. As we read on, counting the engagements off, the article stopped describing his evasive tactics after a dozen or so, In all we made it a count of 21.
Now this could have been any type. At the time we had not heard of the weasel or that type of mission.
If it was a weasel sortie it must have had one hell of an AUW at take-ff to get those balls airborne.
Another report, this time sanitised as it was a year or so earlier, related the experiences of a jet-jockey who evaded a number of Guidelines. He did 'this', then he did 'that' and so on. As we read on, counting the engagements off, the article stopped describing his evasive tactics after a dozen or so, In all we made it a count of 21.
Now this could have been any type. At the time we had not heard of the weasel or that type of mission.
If it was a weasel sortie it must have had one hell of an AUW at take-ff to get those balls airborne.
Doug was an easy going guy with a quick smile and great stick and rudder guy. He brought a tanker home with one engine out, one surging and he got chewed out when he got on the ground for not calling the command post and having a pre-landing conference since he was an 'emergency aircraft." He was told there were many considerations that had to be discussed before an emergency aircraft landed. Doug just smiled...
Later he had another engine shut down and came back to the home base. He called in to the command post (like a good little soldier) with the fact that he had shut down an engine, had x0,000lbs of fuel (enough for many hours of flight) and when he finished his report, he added, "So... what are MY intentions???"
The heavies didn't see his sense of humor. I think Doug finally made Lt. Col. but he was far to apolitical to make full bull....
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WD3, I gained the impression that the guy who took 21 shots was a single seater. These were all SA2 shots not AAMs and the closest was, IIRC, 500 feet although some actually passed closer before detonating.
I also believe this was when they were making single guided shots, albeit lots of them, rather than the later, often unguided, multiple launches.
No this was a quite different incident. Remember the first I recalled as a single engagement on one aircraft of a 16 ship formation of bombers.
I also believe this was when they were making single guided shots, albeit lots of them, rather than the later, often unguided, multiple launches.
No this was a quite different incident. Remember the first I recalled as a single engagement on one aircraft of a 16 ship formation of bombers.
F-105
I knew well two Thud drivers, one my T-38 instructor and the other a KC-135 instructor.
The first was with Thorsen when he got his Medal of Honor. Hoeft took an 85mm round up through his wing. He had a picture of him standing IN the wing. They bolted on steel plates and flew the airplane to Taiwan to repair it. During tests, the wing failed at about 3Gs. Hoeft said he was lucky he did a straight in when RTB..
The second was Doug Beyers (sp?). Beyers brought the missile home with a dud warhead. Beyers had a picture of him standing beside the Thud with the missile dangling from the Thud.
...........
The first was with Thorsen when he got his Medal of Honor. Hoeft took an 85mm round up through his wing. He had a picture of him standing IN the wing. They bolted on steel plates and flew the airplane to Taiwan to repair it. During tests, the wing failed at about 3Gs. Hoeft said he was lucky he did a straight in when RTB..
The second was Doug Beyers (sp?). Beyers brought the missile home with a dud warhead. Beyers had a picture of him standing beside the Thud with the missile dangling from the Thud.
...........
The Bucc when compared to the Thud comes second by far.
A very quick comparison of various aircraft can be done at the following site....
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft_comparison.asp
A very quick comparison of various aircraft can be done at the following site....
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft_comparison.asp
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Doug's machine was a D, not a G or F so not a WW.
Bell mentions a flight of 1 "F" model leading 3 "D" models on a WW flight to JCS 51.10 outside Puc Yen, a flight commanded by Thorsness. The flight got sepearated over the target, and Bell (flying nr 4) has few kind words about the idea of trying to follow a lightly loaded "F" in a fully loaded "D" model.
Nice book as well.
Raf & F-105
The Bucc when compared to the Thud comes second by far.
A very quick comparison of various aircraft can be done at the following site....
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft_comparison.asp
A very quick comparison of various aircraft can be done at the following site....
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft_comparison.asp
The maximum 34200 lbs of thrust from the Olympus would have made a substantial improvement in the F-105D's performance.
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Red Flag was born from heavy Thud losses, primarily, and the mission concept has always been to provide a realistic combat environment to train in so the inevitable mistakes will not teach their lessons in reality.
USAF training doctrine always held (until the late 90s) that a UPT grad was universally assignable, hence tanker pilots and such were thrown into the Thud and sent into combat after a short RTU exposure. The 'fighter-qualified' label only mattered for the initial assignment out of UPT.
The process was reversed in my case, as I was involuntarily shunted from RF-4s to the KC-135. Bitter at first, I quickly realized it was the best thing that could have happened to me in the air force. I stayed on the tanker in the reserves for the remaining 26 of my 30 years.
USAF training doctrine always held (until the late 90s) that a UPT grad was universally assignable, hence tanker pilots and such were thrown into the Thud and sent into combat after a short RTU exposure. The 'fighter-qualified' label only mattered for the initial assignment out of UPT.
The process was reversed in my case, as I was involuntarily shunted from RF-4s to the KC-135. Bitter at first, I quickly realized it was the best thing that could have happened to me in the air force. I stayed on the tanker in the reserves for the remaining 26 of my 30 years.