Para training to be stopped for 4 yrs
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I agree with AA, in as much as certain capabilites have not been used for a while, but should be retained, for one simple reason:
They have proved themselves an effective deterrent. Not using nuclear weapons has been a great success, I think most would agree (though I wavered a little on that one when I actually visited Moscow). The Parachute Regiment acquitted itself well on Op Corporate. No similar incidents since.
If the Army has to take a cut, why not look at the cold war assets, like AS90 tracked artillery? Or 400 MBTs, of which we never deploy more than 100 or so.
IMHO though, the real solution is to increase the funding to the MoD in real terms, in line with the increased commitments placed on the MoD in very real terms. If that costs some reduction in the welfare state, then a) that is the choice of the government in order to finance its worldly ambitions and b) a more appropriate use of taxation; spending the money to defend onesself, not rewarding the idle. I'm not talking about stopping 75 year old Mrs Jones' winter fuel payment, just can the prescription methadone, the aforementioned drop-in centres and such worthless social detritus.
Maybe we could then have some more military training appropriate to force requirements.
They have proved themselves an effective deterrent. Not using nuclear weapons has been a great success, I think most would agree (though I wavered a little on that one when I actually visited Moscow). The Parachute Regiment acquitted itself well on Op Corporate. No similar incidents since.
If the Army has to take a cut, why not look at the cold war assets, like AS90 tracked artillery? Or 400 MBTs, of which we never deploy more than 100 or so.
IMHO though, the real solution is to increase the funding to the MoD in real terms, in line with the increased commitments placed on the MoD in very real terms. If that costs some reduction in the welfare state, then a) that is the choice of the government in order to finance its worldly ambitions and b) a more appropriate use of taxation; spending the money to defend onesself, not rewarding the idle. I'm not talking about stopping 75 year old Mrs Jones' winter fuel payment, just can the prescription methadone, the aforementioned drop-in centres and such worthless social detritus.
Maybe we could then have some more military training appropriate to force requirements.
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Parachuting is merely a means of getting to work.
The spirit and training required by Para's exceed that of ground borne light infantry. Para's knowingly start their fight by being surrounded by enemy forces and go from there. It takes a "different" breed to do that.
There is more to being a Para than merely jumping from an airplane in the middle of the night.....after all that is the easy part of the job. The hard part starts upon hitting the ground.
What happens to the military when there is no Cadre upon which to build should another war time expansion become necessary?
The spirit and training required by Para's exceed that of ground borne light infantry. Para's knowingly start their fight by being surrounded by enemy forces and go from there. It takes a "different" breed to do that.
There is more to being a Para than merely jumping from an airplane in the middle of the night.....after all that is the easy part of the job. The hard part starts upon hitting the ground.
What happens to the military when there is no Cadre upon which to build should another war time expansion become necessary?
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Just for once, wouldn't it be nice if rather than the usual deny everything and appear stupid, an MOD spokesman said something along the lines of 'Financially, things are pretty tough and inevitably we are having to consider a number of options that will save money in the short term. Clearly, since we are required to maintain operational output, we are focusing on which support areas could be reduced to provide the appropriate savings. Once we have agreed a balanced programme, it will be announce by Ministers in the appropriate way.'
Using a phrase like 'it is bizarre to claim a predicted overspend' is just nonsensical, given that 2nd PUS has already publicly said the books aren't balancing at the moment.
Using a phrase like 'it is bizarre to claim a predicted overspend' is just nonsensical, given that 2nd PUS has already publicly said the books aren't balancing at the moment.
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Parachute or Airborne?
The airborne divisions of WWII consisted of 2 brigades of parachute troops and an Air-Landing Brigade delivered by glider. The mass delivery of paratroops was a tricky business. Witness the lack of concentration and high casualties experienced in Op Husky (Sicily). Add to this the scattering of paratroops in Normandy when compared with the Coup de Main of glider troops at Pegasus Bridge. At Arnhem the initial drop was successful, but only because the paratroops were dropped too far from their objectives - the follow-up drops were disasters (even with Flt Lt Lord's VC). There were also big losses in Op Varsity (crossing the Rhine). The only really successful drops were by Glider (discounting Sicily where inexperienced American pilots released early into a headwind and 600 members of the air landing brigade died in the sea, unable to reach land). Add to these examples the huge losses of Fallschirmjager in Crete when compared to the successes of glider-borne troops at Eben-Emael, and the failure of the original SAS missions when they used parachutes. Parachute operations are risky and prone to problems - glider troops were more effective. The Glider Pilot Regt disbanded soon after the war - the reason was that helicopters were found to be even more effective.
So, in my humble opinion (and based upon the US Airborne cavalry in Vietnam), the way ahead for large drops is NOT with the paratrooper, but with light mobile forces ferried by helicopter (and re-supplied from the air). Large numbers of low flying transport aircraft at paradrop height are too vulnerable. We need "Airborne" rather than "Paratrooper", and the helicopter equivalent of the Air Landing Brigade is the best way forward.
Now - where do we get the helicopters from............
I stand by for further discussion.
So, in my humble opinion (and based upon the US Airborne cavalry in Vietnam), the way ahead for large drops is NOT with the paratrooper, but with light mobile forces ferried by helicopter (and re-supplied from the air). Large numbers of low flying transport aircraft at paradrop height are too vulnerable. We need "Airborne" rather than "Paratrooper", and the helicopter equivalent of the Air Landing Brigade is the best way forward.
Now - where do we get the helicopters from............
I stand by for further discussion.
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This is just another erosion of a military capability, although I am sure we are being gloomier than it actually may be. However, this is a valid capability and it is also a capability that attracts the sort of individual who is able to fight with the determination shown day after day in Helmand this Summer. Whilst we quibble about the capability and whether airborne intervention is currently valid, remember that we should prepare for the next war, not the one we are fighting now.
If you are in any doubt about the quality of these individuals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7vNHkHFAVc
If you are in any doubt about the quality of these individuals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7vNHkHFAVc
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This is just another erosion of a military capability, although I am sure we are being gloomier than it actually may be. However, this is a valid capability and it is also a capability that attracts the sort of individual who is able to fight with the determination shown day after day in Helmand this Summer. Whilst we quibble about the capability and whether airborne intervention is currently valid, remember that we should prepare for the next war, not the one we are fighting now.
If you are in any doubt about the quality of these individuals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7vNHkHFAVc
If you are in any doubt about the quality of these individuals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7vNHkHFAVc
Being an ex-Black Mafia rifleman I resent the assertion that the means of transport a unit uses to get to the battlefield somehow makes them more courageous. Yes Para's have a certain 'esprit de corps' and aggression bred from their sense of belonging to the airborne brotherhood and anyone who has spent time with Para's will no doubt tell of their fanaticism for being what they are but in my ever-so-humble opinion courage is in the person, not the training.
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Yes Para's have a certain 'esprit de corps' and aggression bred from their sense of belonging to the airborne brotherhood and anyone who has spent time with Para's will no doubt tell of their fanaticism for being what they are but in my ever-so-humble opinion courage is in the person, not the training.
So The Helpful Stacker what are you suggesting that the Parachute Regiment should be disbanded and the present members be transferred to other infantry regiments? If so, then you know s** all about what makes the the British Army so special. Nobody is suggesting that the other Regiments are not just as brave and proud of their heritage and traditions but when you have something special lets keep it.
So The Helpful Stacker what are you suggesting that the Parachute Regiment should be disbanded and the present members be transferred to other infantry regiments? If so, then you know s** all about what makes the the British Army so special. Nobody is suggesting that the other Regiments are not just as brave and proud of their heritage and traditions but when you have something special lets keep it.
Last edited by MReyn24050; 19th Dec 2006 at 08:47.
I think that he's reacting to a perceived inferrence that the Parachute Regiment has a monopoly on courage and determination from Compressorstall's
although I must say that didn't infer that from the post.
The press, on the other hand, do get terribly excited about the Paras, and can convey exactly the sentiment to which THS was responding. I found myself fielding a question of a similar nature a while ago from some 'enthusiast' at a seminar, with the questioner suggesting that the Parachute Regiment had far, far superior reserves of courage over the [quote] 'humble cannon fodder of the line infantry' [unquote].
As it was just after the March 05 Operational Honours and Awards had been announced, I suggested that unless the PWRR had become part of the Parachute Regiment, its recent acquisition of 1 x VC, 2 x DSO, 2 x CGC, 7 x MC & 15 x MiD perhaps demonstrated that his perception was incorrect...
...it is also a capability that attracts the sort of individual who is able to fight with the determination shown day after day in Helmand this Summer...
The press, on the other hand, do get terribly excited about the Paras, and can convey exactly the sentiment to which THS was responding. I found myself fielding a question of a similar nature a while ago from some 'enthusiast' at a seminar, with the questioner suggesting that the Parachute Regiment had far, far superior reserves of courage over the [quote] 'humble cannon fodder of the line infantry' [unquote].
As it was just after the March 05 Operational Honours and Awards had been announced, I suggested that unless the PWRR had become part of the Parachute Regiment, its recent acquisition of 1 x VC, 2 x DSO, 2 x CGC, 7 x MC & 15 x MiD perhaps demonstrated that his perception was incorrect...
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However, this is a valid capability and it is also a capability that attracts the sort of individual who is able to fight with the determination shown day after day in Helmand this Summer.
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The Helpful Stacker.
My apologies for misunderstanding you, please put it down to emotions and disgust at the way this government is treating the Armed Forces.
I do take your point. My feelings are, having built units which have that esprit de corps and elan to remove the main factor that helped make the unit what it is, just doesnt bare thinking about.
I do take your point. My feelings are, having built units which have that esprit de corps and elan to remove the main factor that helped make the unit what it is, just doesnt bare thinking about.
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I would say that standard army regiments attract a higher proprotion of standard people. It takes a certain amount of guts and determination just to walk into the recruiting office and say "I want to be a Para or I want to be a Marine" and it just gets a hell of a lot harder from there, from running every night to get fit to getting off the train at Lympstone to signing the papers and then going on to complete all of the training. It takes a huge amount of grit and determination and intelligence to pass out. There is a huge failure rate and many don't achieve their dreams.
It is a mixture of personality and system that makes a maroon or green beret. A few years ago the MOD stopped the Paras from proudly wearing Pegasus on their arms. That was a huge blow for them, a real kick in the teeth, it would have been like us having to give up the commando dagger as a symbol.
And now they are going to have baby Paras running around without wings? Can you imagine what it will be like for these guys to join a unit and to be seen as a "Plastic Para"? The amount of ribbing these young lads will get amongst a testosterone heavy atmosphere?
Traditions, battle honours, extreme training and esprit de corps make an elite fighting force, do not mess with something that works, and the Para's work bloody well.
Most of the 1st AB veterans that I’ve met that were jump qualified said they were lucky to have got jump training, as it was far safer than an insertion in one of those wooden coffins with wings…..And on the subject of fighting spirit/esprit de corps etc., the Air-Landing troops were no less brave or committed than their Parachute Regt. colleagues at Arnhem, 2 of the 4 ground won Arnhem VC’s were awarded to members of the South Staff’s, and Airborne was Airborne.
. It was a good way to get a small concentration of troops in the same place with the element of surprise, such as at Pegasus Bridge, Eben-Emael and the audacious Otto Skorzeny/Count Otto Von Berlepsch led capture of Mussolini at Gran Sasso.
So, in my humble opinion (and based upon the US Airborne cavalry in Vietnam), the way ahead for large drops is NOT with the paratrooper, but with light mobile forces ferried by helicopter (and re-supplied from the air). Large numbers of low flying transport aircraft at paradrop height are too vulnerable. We need "Airborne" rather than "Paratrooper", and the helicopter equivalent of the Air Landing Brigade is the best way forward.
Now - where do we get the helicopters from............
Now - where do we get the helicopters from............
If only we had something to tow them with of course…..
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On a lighter note, having as a Loadie, qualified many a first jump troop out of a C130, using my right boot.
But the training I suspect is never totally forgotten.
Recently was in hospital, and shared a room with a WW2 para, great guy, but at 84 years had broken his hip. The medics wanted him to stand up and walk with with the aid of a frame, but he just lacked the confidence to stand up.
Watching the antics of three staff, to who getting no where, I went over and said "you want him to stand". I can get him to stand for you, the reply was other patients cannot assist.
The non sense went on, no result, I went over again. "I did not explain myself fully, I will only talk to him, I will not touch him". By this time the director of nursing was involved, and I heard her say, "This I have got to see".
I walk over again, "You two one on either side, but you are only there to catch him if he looses balance".
I stand in front of him and say "Digger can you hear me" yes was the reply.
In my best NCO voice I say "Stand up, followed by hook up". With that he slowly stood up straight, and the r/h arm came up to hook to the static line.
Answer from the director of nursing was "well I'll be buggered". How did you know she said that he would do it. Well said I he may not remember what he did last week, but my experience is that take a veteran back to his early years, and it is all so very real.
Patients notes read like an army instruction.
Get attention, make sure he can hear you.
When you want him to stand say
"Stand up, followed by hook up"
Worked every time, when I went home, he sat there with tears streaming down his face and said. "If you have not been there, then how can you understand".
I have a lot of time for the para's, the training we have all recieved will never be forgotten completely.
Regards
Col
But the training I suspect is never totally forgotten.
Recently was in hospital, and shared a room with a WW2 para, great guy, but at 84 years had broken his hip. The medics wanted him to stand up and walk with with the aid of a frame, but he just lacked the confidence to stand up.
Watching the antics of three staff, to who getting no where, I went over and said "you want him to stand". I can get him to stand for you, the reply was other patients cannot assist.
The non sense went on, no result, I went over again. "I did not explain myself fully, I will only talk to him, I will not touch him". By this time the director of nursing was involved, and I heard her say, "This I have got to see".
I walk over again, "You two one on either side, but you are only there to catch him if he looses balance".
I stand in front of him and say "Digger can you hear me" yes was the reply.
In my best NCO voice I say "Stand up, followed by hook up". With that he slowly stood up straight, and the r/h arm came up to hook to the static line.
Answer from the director of nursing was "well I'll be buggered". How did you know she said that he would do it. Well said I he may not remember what he did last week, but my experience is that take a veteran back to his early years, and it is all so very real.
Patients notes read like an army instruction.
Get attention, make sure he can hear you.
When you want him to stand say
"Stand up, followed by hook up"
Worked every time, when I went home, he sat there with tears streaming down his face and said. "If you have not been there, then how can you understand".
I have a lot of time for the para's, the training we have all recieved will never be forgotten completely.
Regards
Col
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Archimedes - Thank you. Exactly what I meant.
PTC REMF - No offence intended to the efforts of the last 24 years, nor the recipients of gallantry awards. I was simply pointing out the successful deterrent nature of the sovereignty protection operation 24 years ago.
Herkman - Bravo.
PTC REMF - No offence intended to the efforts of the last 24 years, nor the recipients of gallantry awards. I was simply pointing out the successful deterrent nature of the sovereignty protection operation 24 years ago.
Herkman - Bravo.
