Para training to be stopped for 4 yrs
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Airborne_Artist
The Company strength bit was from what I recall of the Airborne Task Force paper about 3 years ago. It isn't just a question of numbers of men per C130 its the rest of the kit and kaboodle that go with them. The support requirement was quite horrendous and even the Paras weren't that keen on the idea. Heaven only knows what C130 strength would be needed to get a battalion battlegroup dropped into even a benign environment. Any current experts out there like to hazard a figure?
The Company strength bit was from what I recall of the Airborne Task Force paper about 3 years ago. It isn't just a question of numbers of men per C130 its the rest of the kit and kaboodle that go with them. The support requirement was quite horrendous and even the Paras weren't that keen on the idea. Heaven only knows what C130 strength would be needed to get a battalion battlegroup dropped into even a benign environment. Any current experts out there like to hazard a figure?
Red On, Green On
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Impiger - I bow etc. - perhaps I'm just used to life as an SF grunt; we left the a/c with what we needed for 5+ days, and then carried it off the DZ on our backs. We didn't have mortars, heavy MG etc. which needed feeding.
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nigegilb
Excellent Post. I totally agree absolutely no thought has gone into this decision at all, as you so rightly say "To remove the ability of paras to qualify in this discipline will harm recruitment of personnel wishing to become part of the regiment and also part of UK special forces". . What incentive will there be for a young lad to join the Regiment, complete the "P" Course win the coveted "red beret" but then be unable to win his wings. Just imagine how he would feel belonging to the Parachute Regiment but unqualified to take his place alongside those who have qualified.
I for one am a great defender of the PARA capability, as it has kept me in a job for the past 15 years! I can however see both sides of the argument and it looks as if this is the Army's time to bear some cuts etc. The Navy and Army were only too happy to gang up on the RAF and steal the GBAD role from the RAF Regt, the army shoring up the Navy bid for carriers or some other ship. It now looks as if the Army needs to cut back and what better place than a capability seldom used. How far does this go though? Does this include supply drops, as aerial re-supply is being used in two theatres as we speak?
The article does also mention that the last batch of Typhoon may also be under threat, so the next Chief of Service Staffs meeting will be a right old knees up!! Current CAS is transfixed on Typhoon and his ‘Blue-sky thinking’ is often out of kilter with most other serving RAF personnel, bar pilots!
I fail to see why the MoD should bear the costs of international intervention sanctioned by the Foreign Office. If we need to act on behalf of the UK's interests all the time, then why should conflicts such as Iraq and Afghanistan come out of the Defence Budget??
A paper reported last week that out of the 6 million inhabitants of Scotland (with it's own Parliament etc) some 120,000 were Taxpayer's, the rest all being parasites of the state on benefits etc. Looks like HMG should look at saving money by axing social programs that allow vermin to sponge from the UK Taxpayer instead of cutting VITAL military spending...
The article does also mention that the last batch of Typhoon may also be under threat, so the next Chief of Service Staffs meeting will be a right old knees up!! Current CAS is transfixed on Typhoon and his ‘Blue-sky thinking’ is often out of kilter with most other serving RAF personnel, bar pilots!
I fail to see why the MoD should bear the costs of international intervention sanctioned by the Foreign Office. If we need to act on behalf of the UK's interests all the time, then why should conflicts such as Iraq and Afghanistan come out of the Defence Budget??
A paper reported last week that out of the 6 million inhabitants of Scotland (with it's own Parliament etc) some 120,000 were Taxpayer's, the rest all being parasites of the state on benefits etc. Looks like HMG should look at saving money by axing social programs that allow vermin to sponge from the UK Taxpayer instead of cutting VITAL military spending...
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Apologies for going off-thread but,
Grimweasel,
Are you saying you read that only 2% of the Scottish population pay tax?
I, err, think not....
Sources please chap?
Grimweasel,
Are you saying you read that only 2% of the Scottish population pay tax?
I, err, think not....
Sources please chap?
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
'tis but a short leap from Paras being removed from the Para role (and accompanying Jump pay, if real savings are to be realized) and all those senior Desk Johnnies being liberated from the burden of having to spend all that Flying Pay. Retention is no longer an issue, everyone is leaving. Watch this space.
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Very strange times we are living in at the moment. No (realistic) foreseeable reduction in commitments and certain sectors of all three services are being bled dry. OK if the rumours are true then increased targetted FRIs are about to appear (SO2 pilots? on PC/FTC) but there is also news on the streets of a manpower reduction in the dark blue. This is touted as a readjustment of the 'teeth to tail' ratio. When I completed staff course 'teeth to tail' was considered a non-starter and a dirty word - last time we did it (1990) left us with a near useless secondary medical service and massive delays in acquisition amongst many other problems.
The numbers I have heard floating around are 10,000 for the dark blue alone, very nearly a third of all uniformed manpower. There will be no redundancies, just a near moratorium in SNCO and Officer promotion until we realise there is no chance of a career and PVR. Thus saving a bundle on redundancy payments.
So will a 60k (post tax FRI payment at pension point compensate for the loss of career prospects and increased time in the front line?
So in essence, thanks for working so hard chaps but if you would be so kind as to bugger off quietly and shut the door on the way out.
Perhaps we could bring in the FAREPAK management team to manage the decline.
The numbers I have heard floating around are 10,000 for the dark blue alone, very nearly a third of all uniformed manpower. There will be no redundancies, just a near moratorium in SNCO and Officer promotion until we realise there is no chance of a career and PVR. Thus saving a bundle on redundancy payments.
So will a 60k (post tax FRI payment at pension point compensate for the loss of career prospects and increased time in the front line?
So in essence, thanks for working so hard chaps but if you would be so kind as to bugger off quietly and shut the door on the way out.
Perhaps we could bring in the FAREPAK management team to manage the decline.
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What else is being considered?
So, if we have to save £1bn, cutting para training is only going to provide a tiny fraction of the amount required - what else (besides most of the RN it seems) is going to go?
II Sqn RAF Regt into Sierra Leone is the only example that springs to mind. If the Para Regt aren't going to be jumping will there be more ac time for falling rocks or are they going to be hit as well?
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US Airborne
Hasn't the US Army actually been expanding its para capability? IIRC, as well as the 82nd (now 4 brigades?), there's the 173rd Airborne in Italy (which jumped into northern Iraq in 2003) and another Airborne Bde in Alaska, as well as 3 para-qualified Ranger battallions.
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"So, if we have to save £1bn, cutting para training is only going to provide a tiny fraction of the amount required - what else......?"
A start would be to stop the publication all the internal glossy magazines and papers currently in vogue within the MoD, like Focus, DLO News etc. By all means keep people informed of what is happening outside of their area but does it have to be done in such an expensive manner. The November 2006 DLO News (Issue 50) consists of 44 pages printed on high quality paper and and is I believe issued to every member of the DLO as well as being available on the internet. Whilst I see the benefit of keeping people advised of what is happening I am sure it could be done in a far, far cheaper manner than it is currently. I can appreciate commercial organisations such as Rolls Royce publishing such a magazine but not an organisation that relies upon funding from the public purse.
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/Mi...50November2006
A start would be to stop the publication all the internal glossy magazines and papers currently in vogue within the MoD, like Focus, DLO News etc. By all means keep people informed of what is happening outside of their area but does it have to be done in such an expensive manner. The November 2006 DLO News (Issue 50) consists of 44 pages printed on high quality paper and and is I believe issued to every member of the DLO as well as being available on the internet. Whilst I see the benefit of keeping people advised of what is happening I am sure it could be done in a far, far cheaper manner than it is currently. I can appreciate commercial organisations such as Rolls Royce publishing such a magazine but not an organisation that relies upon funding from the public purse.
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/Mi...50November2006
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Here is what the MoD have to say about said issue:-
Allegations army parachute training is to be cut
Various newspapers report that leaked MOD documents outline that parachute training in the Army is to be halted for four years as part of a £1 billion cost-cutting programme by the MOD. The MOD does not comment on leaked documents. What we can say is that the MOD does not expect to overspend in the current financial year and, as we do not yet have a budget set for the Financial Year 07/08, it is bizarre to claim a predicted overspend. The future Defence budget will be set in the Comprehensive Spending Review next year and we are currently developing plans to ensure that next year's programme is affordable and allocated in line with defence priorities.
Allegations army parachute training is to be cut
Various newspapers report that leaked MOD documents outline that parachute training in the Army is to be halted for four years as part of a £1 billion cost-cutting programme by the MOD. The MOD does not comment on leaked documents. What we can say is that the MOD does not expect to overspend in the current financial year and, as we do not yet have a budget set for the Financial Year 07/08, it is bizarre to claim a predicted overspend. The future Defence budget will be set in the Comprehensive Spending Review next year and we are currently developing plans to ensure that next year's programme is affordable and allocated in line with defence priorities.
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TMJ, I also said very recent, Sierra Leone was a way back and more a display of power for the locals to get the message we can do it any time we like, support from the UK in a matter of hours. Some stuff is not advertised which really makes me wonder if some Chiefs of Staff have the faintest idea about operational aspects of UK AF that they supposedly head up. Paras and Marines are 2nd tier SF with a direct feed into Hereford and Poole. We will lose our hard earned cutting edge because of people like Des Browne, well meaning but politically allied to Gordon Brown and certain Chiefs of Staff who do not know how to street fight New Labour. I believe it is time for General Dannatt to be heard again or maybe his work is already in process!!??
Last edited by nigegilb; 18th Dec 2006 at 12:21.