Sky Man Stuck in Kabul

[nigegilb]

Ah yes mutley, the early 90s that would be Malcolm Rifkind and front line first. I assume they did not consider Akrotiri to be front line hence the engineering cuts. I think we all now agree there is no such thing as an unsupported front line. And now we are being cut again at a time of war. Where is that Rifkind chap? Ah yes the official opposition complaining about cuts to the Medical Services which they instigated. Funny old world isn't it?

[Chugalug2]

Originally Posted by nigegilb

I can only imagine that being an airship is like being a member of the last Callaghan Govt, managing the decline of UK PLC in a splendid fashion, complete with power cuts in winter. Oh well the nights are drawing in, hope it's not a cold one could run out of gas this year....

Crisis? What Crisis?

Sorry Nige, I seem to have Edited rather than Quoted your post. Not sure how, but our thoughts seem to run on such similar lines that the mighty steam driven Pprune computer got us confused!

[nigegilb]

Crisis? What crisis indeed. I assume the only relief planned is a massive troop reduction in Iraq over the coming months. Glad I am not an Iraqi. In many ways the Forces were sold a pup when they were told that they would get that troop reduction. What amazes me is why the chiefs believe anything they are told by any Govt. Once you get rid of your troops you aint getting them back...My 6 year old daughter could probablywork out it is not a good idea to down size in time of war. Unbelievable.

[Chugalug2]

Nige,
I think that the Service Chiefs know very well what is going on, but as has been said before, what can they do? CGS's strop is already yesterday's news and fading from memory, and this thread is now considering the possibility of a premature US rather than UK withdrawal. That old hand Harold never said a truer word than a fortnight being an eternity in politics. So standing up and being counted has a very short shelf life, which leaves what has been graphically described as falling on one's sword as their only other option. This is really the only honourable course left for the Army and Air Force Chiefs of Staff, though no doubt a similar crisis will befall the Royal Navy soon enough. If those two walked out, their successors could insist on the reforms needed to make their Services, though much reduced, militarily viable again. Whether it would work or not who knows, and it would cause mayhem when, as you say, we are at war. It would also put paid to any nice little defence industry sweeteners they no doubt had lined up. But a crisis is indeed looming, and if your daughter could spare say half an hour after school each day to advise on a consultancy basis, I've no doubt she could well double or even triple her pocket money!

[Sideshow Bob]

I'll make one thing clear from the start, I am a 216 Sqn Air Eng so yes I'm going on the defensive. The Tristars being used for this flight are actually quite reliable, I've been doing this route every week for the last 6 months and have only delayed once and that was due to Kabul refusing us due to a lack of fuel (see point 1 below), there is nothing you can do about metal in a tire except buy us some spares and pre-position them (we can't carry tyres and jacks in a flyaway pack, have you seen the size of them) instead of making us look like fools or actually get rid of all the fod that is knocking around that supposedly international sh*thole. There are two main problems with flying into Kabul:-
1. The amount of fuel you can uplift is limited to 10,000ltr (check the NOTAMs). This causes us to reduce passenger loads to carry more fuel, we are often forced to fly half empty. This is not an RAF problem but a NATO one.
2. The second point is we do not have GPS navigation for the approach (we have GPS but are not R-NAV compliant). We have to obey the minima. Again check the NOTAMS the ILS is unserviceable and has been for some time, so is the approach RADAR (so no PAR's) and the VOR/DME is very unreliable. Kabul has lots of big mountains, it is very high up, effecting performance (we can not operate Perf A out of there) and the weather is starting to get quite poor.
We do our best to get in and out everyday we can, we are quite proud of what we do and try to do our best for our passengers, we want to get you home, It's no fun having 120 pi**ed off people sat behind you.

[nigegilb]

Don't think you will find anyone blaming the Tri Star crew here SB. You have just given a precise explanation that made perfect sense. No ILS no radar and no RNAV option. I seem to remember a notional decision of 5000' over Bagram and it aint pretty in the winter time. Maybe someone will send a tyre or 2 down route following this report. As for the infrastrucure and nav facilities at Kabul, well considering the supposed threat to the West that the Taliban represent, it's a joke isn't it?

[SaddamsLoveChild]

I have travelled into and out of both theatres over the last 3 years and it is clear it is a big picture thing. The army generally arent air aware but their experience starts with the movers and administration which treats passengers as cattle and fails to pass on timely information. They also pass alot of the blame onto the aircrew who are bound by necessary rules and are not there to defend or explain exactly what the problem is. They also want to get into and out of dodge as quickly as they can. IMHO The movements staffs interpersonal skills are generally lacking (borne out by my own experience) and it is the few who let the majority down. Unless the RAF per se start working together to provide a reasonable service from arrivals to departures we will always be an easy target.


Fit the aircraft with the kit it requires to do the job and give the airfield the kit it needs to provide a precision approach...........theres something to spend the underspends on your airships.

[mutleyfour]

Sideshow Bob,

I don't think anyone including the Sky man is blaming you or your peers at Brize! I agree and think so do most on here that the movers are in desperate need of some management skills, I for one would not be happy with the so called terminals at both Kabul and Ali'deed and would move heaven and earth to make them better.

Troops arriving on your plane are already on the backfoot as they have been in a system that seems to employ "resistance to Interrogation" techniques by making passengers arrive overly early and then forcing them to sit around and wait for hours and hours for your plane to arrive.

I am convinced that I would have been much happier when I was delayed in kabul had I not already spent the whole blooming day waiting inside a horribly inept building without anything to occupy my mind.

As for your tyre problem, I think the type of response expected is that a spare is either available or another aircraft is found or chartered immediately. Those days on R & R are so precious and should not be squandered at Akrotiri. Once again, not your fault but it does show a lack of care in the sysytem. There appears to be no regard to why these people (Yes People) need to get home as soon as they physically can, no recognition by the Government as to the importance of them getting back.

My final point is as I said a few posts earlier, we are supposed to be a more mobile and better equipped Armed Force, so why arent we?

[Mr Blake]

Originally Posted by mutleyfour

we are supposed to be a more mobile and better equipped Armed Force, so why arent we?

Of course we are, but unfortuneately we committed all our cash to buy a state of the art cold war fighter/bomber, and not the AT required to move our rapidly deployable forces around the globe. Perhaps this was a lack of fwd thinking, but to be fair the Typhoon was off the drawing board at the time of the New Romantics, and subsequently it would have taken a greater clairvoyant than Mystic Meg to see the fall of the Berlin Wall etc.... With BAE tying us in tighter than a tight thing, and costs esculating, we have little cash in the pot to upgrade the aged AT currently in use, to support the vision of a more mobile and better equipped Armed Force. Things will get worse before they get better, despite the excellent efforts of the crews trying to make do.

[dionysius]

Here we go again, blame the Movers, even though :

1. the wrong jack was sent, nothing to do with movs.

2. no main wheel/jack is carried as part of the a/c fap. not a movements decision.

3. no fap with main wheels etc are prepositioned at KBL/AKT route staging posts, again not a movs decision.

I appreciate something is lacking on passenger information/handling, but lets not blame the movers for other peoples(command decisions) cock-ups.

[mutleyfour]

Mr Blake

Thanks for the reply, however I seem to remember that about the same time it was announced we would be hiring C17 to move men and equipment about the place. So why aren't we using said C17's in Theatre more commonly?

[plans123]

Strange that the pic is taken at Akrotiri and not at Kabul though.............surely he would have taken some piccies there to while away the hours he spent stranded..........

[Mr Blake]

Originally Posted by mutleyfour

Mr Blake

So why aren't we using said C17's in Theatre more commonly?

I think the simple answer to this is that we just don't have enough.

[Fortyodd2]

"leaner meaner fighting force which will be equipped with the very latest and best equipment.......I seem to remember words similar to those being spoken not long after Op Granby".

..............and Op Corporate!!!

[Flatus Veteranus]

A few random thoughts:-

It seems incredible that a key staging post like Akrotiri does not hold such basic items as spare wheels for transport aircraft. IIRC the Vulcan FAP carried on every ranger flight had them. It also seems incredible that a logistics terminal like Kabul does not have a precision approach aid compatible with RAF transports.

I ask myself whether the roulement of troops on two weeks R&R during a six month (?) tour of duty was an operational requirement, or a bonus "if we can manage it, chaps; we will do our best but no guarantees". Such sweeteners soon become inalienable rights. I remember the groans and grunts (pardon) from Stanley at the end of CORPORATE when every soldier and reporter (including Max Hastings) thought it was his inalienable right to be flown home by the RAF even before Beetham's bomb crater could be repaired. "The Argentine AF" I believed Max said " managed to fly Herculeses in and out a week or two ago - why cannot the RAF?" I love the British Army (yes I do!) but my expectations of them fall far short of any understanding of the effect of stage-lengths and operating weights on landing and take-off performance. Considering how totally dependent is the Army on logistic air support, I am surprised that the basics of aircraft performance are not taught at Sandhurst. But maybe they are not up to it interllectually.

[splitbrain]

Originally Posted by Flatus Veteranus

It seems incredible that a key staging post like Akrotiri does not hold such basic items as spare wheels for transport aircraft.

Although it didn't at the time cater fully for Tristar, up until 1993 Akrotiri had a whole section of transport type trained engineers, with tools and spares including wheels, engines, propellors etc in theatre. Some of the older crews here may remember TASF. If TASF had still been going today the Tristar support may have been in place, who knows.
TASF was reduced in status to a simple handling section (VAHS) due to differences of opinion between HQBFC or Strike Command over over who should pay for the 40 odd engineers to be stationed in Cyprus.
It does seem quite mad now, up to 1991 Akrotiri was relatively quiet with respect transport movements. Since then its seen umpteen ops, relief ops etc in support of Middle Eastern and African campaigns.

[Chugalug2]

Originally Posted by splitbrain

TASF was reduced in status to a simple handling section (VAHS) due to differences of opinion between HQBFC or Strike Command over over who should pay for the 40 odd engineers to be stationed in Cyprus.
It does seem quite mad now, up to 1991 Akrotiri was relatively quiet with respect transport movements. Since then its seen umpteen ops, relief ops etc in support of Middle Eastern and African campaigns.

So the no brain solution would be to re-establish TASF, surely? We are at war, and the AKR staging facilities are woeful. They need more money and more personnel expended on them. Not going to happen? Then other consequences surely will!

[glum]

But Tone promised that anything we needed, we'd get. And at least this ask won't break the bank, and may even buy him some smartie points with the guys doing his bidding...

[mutleyfour]

Originally Posted by Flatus Veteranus

I am surprised that the basics of aircraft performance are not taught at Sandhurst. But maybe they are not up to it interllectually.

Hmm, regardless of the necessity to know about aircraft performance and fuel cals etc FV the system simply isnt up to fully supporting an Airhead such as in place at kabul it seems.

You may blame the Army, others the RAF, but essentially its our Lords and Masters that have determined our fate, and indeed keep us restrained by poor funding and very little regard for our well being.

note: I haven't put any emphasis on spellings as it it is so tiersome when folk do!

[Flatus Veteranus]

Originally Posted by mutleyfour

Hmm, regardless of the necessity to know about aircraft performance and fuel cals etc FV the system simply isnt up to fully supporting an Airhead such as in place at kabul it seems.
You may blame the Army, others the RAF, but essentially its our Lords and Masters that have determined our fate, and indeed keep us restrained by poor funding and very little regard for our well being.
note: I haven't put any emphasis on spellings as it it is so tiersome when folk do!

I was not "blaming the army", M4, so much as suggesting that some of their moans have to be taken with a bucketful of salt. Their bitching about "crabair" is almost a tradition.