Helicopter Pilot Seating
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Following on from CM's helpful comments re Sioux (Bell/Westland/Agusta Model 47G), I came across this website: http://cellmath.med.utoronto.ca/B47/47Home.html for anyone who is interested. It certainly backs up what CM said about the bench seats, especially on the military variants and the collective seems to vary considerably. Unfortunately for my contention re RH seat pilots none are airborne (of those I looked at anyway). If you're on the mil net right now most of the Flash players won't work but the site is clearly a labour of love with many examples and photos of mainly G models but also some earlier and later variants. 
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I thought it was all to do with Tail Rotor Drift.
Due to tail rotor thrust, if left uncorrected, aircraft will drift right in the hover.
Left cyclic is applied to counter.
Aircraft now sits left wheel/skid low.
Counter this by placing driver in RHS.
QHIs/Beefers - please jump in with your coloured pens if this is incorrect!
Due to tail rotor thrust, if left uncorrected, aircraft will drift right in the hover.
Left cyclic is applied to counter.
Aircraft now sits left wheel/skid low.
Counter this by placing driver in RHS.
QHIs/Beefers - please jump in with your coloured pens if this is incorrect!
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Right or Left ?
i seem to remember in the dim and distant past flying the Bell 47 from the LHS. I would have had to have extremely long arms in order to (if I remember correctly) push in the fuel cock during start as it was situated on the left hand side of the cockpit, almost under the left leg !!
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What a load of b@llocks!
1. Look at a range of helicopters.
2. Observe the hover attitudes.
3. Notice that plush exectutive helicopters always fly level, but hover squint. This is because rich passengers dislike flying on a lean so are set up to minimise the vertical difference between TR and MR in cruise flight. In a skidded military helicopter such as the UH1, they hover flat so even American Pilots can have a reasonable chance of successfully landing, but fly squint because grunts do not get to complain. You cannot have both hover and flight level, due to the couple refered to earlier.
The idea that we sit on one side to help fight the couple is proved wrong by the fact that French Helicopters have the blades going the other way, thus have the opposite skid low, but still fly from the right.
I am just guessing
, but the fact that most of the origional helicopters with more than one seat had one collective centrally, but two cyclics is what led to the right seat flying. People noticed that since most of us are right handed, it was best to have the right hand on the sensitive control, ie the cyclic, which naturally puts you in the right seat.QED
1. Look at a range of helicopters.
2. Observe the hover attitudes.
3. Notice that plush exectutive helicopters always fly level, but hover squint. This is because rich passengers dislike flying on a lean so are set up to minimise the vertical difference between TR and MR in cruise flight. In a skidded military helicopter such as the UH1, they hover flat so even American Pilots can have a reasonable chance of successfully landing, but fly squint because grunts do not get to complain. You cannot have both hover and flight level, due to the couple refered to earlier.
The idea that we sit on one side to help fight the couple is proved wrong by the fact that French Helicopters have the blades going the other way, thus have the opposite skid low, but still fly from the right.
I am just guessing
, but the fact that most of the origional helicopters with more than one seat had one collective centrally, but two cyclics is what led to the right seat flying. People noticed that since most of us are right handed, it was best to have the right hand on the sensitive control, ie the cyclic, which naturally puts you in the right seat.QED
WIWO Whirlwinds...
I was told by one of the 'senior' instructors that the reason for flying from the Right seat was down to basic ergonomics (before the invention of the word?).
"With the Stick in your Right Hand and the Lever in your Left - it is possible to use your left hand to work the switches, dials. levers. etc. - while jamming you left Knee against the Lever to stop it dropping!"
I believe it was only later developments of Whirlwinds that introduced Friction pads to Collective Levers, and eventually to Cyclic Sticks on other types (that the Whirlwind never had!)
Couldn't argue with that!
I was told by one of the 'senior' instructors that the reason for flying from the Right seat was down to basic ergonomics (before the invention of the word?).
"With the Stick in your Right Hand and the Lever in your Left - it is possible to use your left hand to work the switches, dials. levers. etc. - while jamming you left Knee against the Lever to stop it dropping!"
I believe it was only later developments of Whirlwinds that introduced Friction pads to Collective Levers, and eventually to Cyclic Sticks on other types (that the Whirlwind never had!)
Couldn't argue with that!
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This may help with the discussion! We Bootneck Sioux pilots sat on the Port side, and the 'filled' part you can see in the middle seat was where the dual controls collective lever was positioned when fitted.
The tail rotor pedals had 'Agusta Bell' on them which we told passengers was Italian for 'Adjustable'!
Sitting on the port side did make it awkward when changing radio channels etc, but it meant you could carry two passengers.
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As we are talking about the Sioux, I thought I would quote the whole Flight Test Report!
FLIGHT TEST: THE SIOUX AH 1
The Bell 47G3-B1, known to the British Army as the Sioux and to the irreverent as the Clockwork Mouse, is the first genuine see-through aircraft ever to enter military service. Used in the observation role, the Sioux's built-in transparency is a triumph of helicopter design.
The early production models were built by a well-known Italian motorcycle manu-facturer in 1964 and represented 17 tireless years of development since the prototype first flew in 1947. It replaced a more modern aircraft, the Squitter Mk 12.
The cockpit layout is conventional, except that it accommodates the crew seated three abreast and is left hand drive. The central passenger may be replaced by a dual collective lever if prolonged flight in manual control is contemplated.
Passengers enjoy an impression of space surprising for a machine of this size and quickly learn to open the Financial Times in the area provided between the pilot and his instruments. Nervous twitches caused by plunging share prices can result in both magnetos being switched off. Only a rudimentary knowledge of the newspaper's layout is required for the pilot to locate the switches, and restarting the engine is straightforward.
Visibility from the pilot's station is otherwise excellent, being obscured only by
the doorframe, the instrument panel, a dashing yellow "go faster" stripe on the canopy and a decorative length of red wool attached outside by a strip of cellotape. There is a convenient foreign-object collection point immediately beneath the yaw pedals.
Starting is straightforward and entirely independent of the rotor tie-down system. Electrical power is intermittently supplied by a forward mounted battery and an ingenious arrangement of breather tubes ensures that when fumes reach the pilot they are well below critical levels. Provision has been made for the engine to be started on cold mornings with the crank handle from an Army truck, and this would be well within the capabilities of a nimble engineering graduate.
The time taken for the cylinder head temperature to reach its minimum of 100O C may be used for flight planning, student briefing or the writing of confidential reports.
The twist-grip throttle operates in the conventional sense through a quadrant containing two detents which are usually so worn as to be of no significance to the pilot.
The aircraft is easy and pleasant to fly for short periods and the upholstery is designed with this in mind. The Sioux's aerodynamic properties are such that total drag is almost balanced by total thrust, resulting in a rock steady hover in ground effect and the ability to attain maximum speed in level flight well within its endurance of 2.5 hours. On production aircraft a calendar replaces the more conventional stopwatch on the instrument panel.
Fuel management is simple and effective. The fuel cock is located alongside the pilot’s collective lever but, should it be overlooked, sufficient reserve is retained in the fuel lines and carburettor for the first few seconds of flight. The idle cut-off lever is mounted conveniently beside the carb-air heat control, allowing the engine to be shut down instantly in any phase of flight.
The 6-cylinder horizontally-opposed Lycoming engine is turbo-supercharged to
provide an inadequate but constant power output from ground level to 12,400 feet. At this altitude, some care must be taken to ensure that none of the flying controls are disturbed. Recovery from vortex ring state is automatic, exhilarating and requires no conscious effort from the pilot provided that he has eaten only sparingly beforehand.
The maximum performance take-off called for in the air test causes only minor discomfort in the crew: pilots have likened the sensation to standing in a bucket and pulling up on the handle.
The high-inertia two-bladed semi-rigid rotor gives the crew plenty of time to diagnose engine failure in the event of a sudden onset of silence. It also incorporates a hydraulically-damped stabiliser bar, whose function has remained obscure since the designer's death, but which keeps the pilot fit during his pre-flight inspection.
The pre-flight inspection itself has been reduced to the minimum, consisting of a visual check that all major components are installed and that daylight is visible through the aft crosstube of the undercarriage. This is difficult to check at night, unless someone is available to shine a torch from the opposite end, which blinds the pilot and delays the sortie. Pilots who like to look through both ends never get airborne at all.
A radio facility pioneered in the Sioux enables a passenger to talk direct to troops on the ground, as well as to himself, other aircraft and the Radar Controller at any busy airport. The popularity of this feature with Sioux pilots should ensure its retention in future helicopters.
The aircraft is easy to service and maintain. All major components are easily accessible and can be cleaned by leaving the Sioux out in the rain. A wide variety of role equipment can he fitted with difficulty and removed with ease. Some role equipment actually removes itself in flight, particularly the load net and strop which fall clear when the underslung load switch is moved to SAFE. This ensures an adequate power margin for landing.
In summary, the Sioux is ideally suited to the Army's requirements, being dirt cheap and grotesque to look at. The noise it makes is particularly popular with the film industry, which dubs it onto all helicopter sequences regardless of the type of aircraft shown.
FLIGHT TEST: THE SIOUX AH 1
The Bell 47G3-B1, known to the British Army as the Sioux and to the irreverent as the Clockwork Mouse, is the first genuine see-through aircraft ever to enter military service. Used in the observation role, the Sioux's built-in transparency is a triumph of helicopter design.
The early production models were built by a well-known Italian motorcycle manu-facturer in 1964 and represented 17 tireless years of development since the prototype first flew in 1947. It replaced a more modern aircraft, the Squitter Mk 12.
The cockpit layout is conventional, except that it accommodates the crew seated three abreast and is left hand drive. The central passenger may be replaced by a dual collective lever if prolonged flight in manual control is contemplated.
Passengers enjoy an impression of space surprising for a machine of this size and quickly learn to open the Financial Times in the area provided between the pilot and his instruments. Nervous twitches caused by plunging share prices can result in both magnetos being switched off. Only a rudimentary knowledge of the newspaper's layout is required for the pilot to locate the switches, and restarting the engine is straightforward.
Visibility from the pilot's station is otherwise excellent, being obscured only by
the doorframe, the instrument panel, a dashing yellow "go faster" stripe on the canopy and a decorative length of red wool attached outside by a strip of cellotape. There is a convenient foreign-object collection point immediately beneath the yaw pedals.
Starting is straightforward and entirely independent of the rotor tie-down system. Electrical power is intermittently supplied by a forward mounted battery and an ingenious arrangement of breather tubes ensures that when fumes reach the pilot they are well below critical levels. Provision has been made for the engine to be started on cold mornings with the crank handle from an Army truck, and this would be well within the capabilities of a nimble engineering graduate.
The time taken for the cylinder head temperature to reach its minimum of 100O C may be used for flight planning, student briefing or the writing of confidential reports.
The twist-grip throttle operates in the conventional sense through a quadrant containing two detents which are usually so worn as to be of no significance to the pilot.
The aircraft is easy and pleasant to fly for short periods and the upholstery is designed with this in mind. The Sioux's aerodynamic properties are such that total drag is almost balanced by total thrust, resulting in a rock steady hover in ground effect and the ability to attain maximum speed in level flight well within its endurance of 2.5 hours. On production aircraft a calendar replaces the more conventional stopwatch on the instrument panel.
Fuel management is simple and effective. The fuel cock is located alongside the pilot’s collective lever but, should it be overlooked, sufficient reserve is retained in the fuel lines and carburettor for the first few seconds of flight. The idle cut-off lever is mounted conveniently beside the carb-air heat control, allowing the engine to be shut down instantly in any phase of flight.
The 6-cylinder horizontally-opposed Lycoming engine is turbo-supercharged to
provide an inadequate but constant power output from ground level to 12,400 feet. At this altitude, some care must be taken to ensure that none of the flying controls are disturbed. Recovery from vortex ring state is automatic, exhilarating and requires no conscious effort from the pilot provided that he has eaten only sparingly beforehand.
The maximum performance take-off called for in the air test causes only minor discomfort in the crew: pilots have likened the sensation to standing in a bucket and pulling up on the handle.
The high-inertia two-bladed semi-rigid rotor gives the crew plenty of time to diagnose engine failure in the event of a sudden onset of silence. It also incorporates a hydraulically-damped stabiliser bar, whose function has remained obscure since the designer's death, but which keeps the pilot fit during his pre-flight inspection.
The pre-flight inspection itself has been reduced to the minimum, consisting of a visual check that all major components are installed and that daylight is visible through the aft crosstube of the undercarriage. This is difficult to check at night, unless someone is available to shine a torch from the opposite end, which blinds the pilot and delays the sortie. Pilots who like to look through both ends never get airborne at all.
A radio facility pioneered in the Sioux enables a passenger to talk direct to troops on the ground, as well as to himself, other aircraft and the Radar Controller at any busy airport. The popularity of this feature with Sioux pilots should ensure its retention in future helicopters.
The aircraft is easy to service and maintain. All major components are easily accessible and can be cleaned by leaving the Sioux out in the rain. A wide variety of role equipment can he fitted with difficulty and removed with ease. Some role equipment actually removes itself in flight, particularly the load net and strop which fall clear when the underslung load switch is moved to SAFE. This ensures an adequate power margin for landing.
In summary, the Sioux is ideally suited to the Army's requirements, being dirt cheap and grotesque to look at. The noise it makes is particularly popular with the film industry, which dubs it onto all helicopter sequences regardless of the type of aircraft shown.
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CM
Excellent, but a little too close to the truth for comfort.
We didn't need the button-on blind flying panel in Aden as we just waited for the next sandstorm.
ERB
Excellent, but a little too close to the truth for comfort.
We didn't need the button-on blind flying panel in Aden as we just waited for the next sandstorm.
ERB
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First trials flight of a heavily armed Royal Marines Sioux in Aden in Aug 1966. They eventually made a few minor tweaks, decided to change the name of the Indian Tribe to 'Apache', and the rest is history.
ERB
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I heard it was because long time ago, planes used to make left hand circuits while helos used to make them right hand, hence the position of the pilot in order to see the inside of the turn.
Only a legend...
Only a legend...
Chugalug2
Not a very enlightened view if I may be so bold?????
On further investigaton, you may discover a 2nd new thing today. MOST pilots and indeed Aircraft Commanders in the AAC are in fact SNCO's. They are not denied a career path as a pilot simply because they aren't graduate material who instead chose to join up straight into the ranks. You may even (gasp - horror!) discover a 3rd - that most QHI's within the Corps are these jolly competent NCO's types.
Spiffing these days isn't it, that they'll let the oiks do any old job..........
PS Commanders in an army helicopter sit in the left hand seat and the pilot in the right, but the cab can be flown from either
Not a very enlightened view if I may be so bold?????
On further investigaton, you may discover a 2nd new thing today. MOST pilots and indeed Aircraft Commanders in the AAC are in fact SNCO's. They are not denied a career path as a pilot simply because they aren't graduate material who instead chose to join up straight into the ranks. You may even (gasp - horror!) discover a 3rd - that most QHI's within the Corps are these jolly competent NCO's types.
Spiffing these days isn't it, that they'll let the oiks do any old job..........
PS Commanders in an army helicopter sit in the left hand seat and the pilot in the right, but the cab can be flown from either
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The commander of the AAC hel in the scenario you paint might be an officer but he would of course be a qualified and current pilot too.
Do I infer from your chip on shoulder comments that you do not consider that RAF pilots need to be officers? Presumably you consider the job isn't that demanding then. Save a hell of a lot of money busting them all down to SNCO, so good idea mate. Write a paper to the MoD and make your name.
Do I infer from your chip on shoulder comments that you do not consider that RAF pilots need to be officers? Presumably you consider the job isn't that demanding then. Save a hell of a lot of money busting them all down to SNCO, so good idea mate. Write a paper to the MoD and make your name.
Yeah, the chip still shows obviously, as you spotted. But my revenge for being the lowest paid member of the crew was to be the last to get a round in!
Oh you mean about NCO pilots? I wasn't an NCO, so didn't have any feelings one way or the other. It seems to be more of a pre-occupation with the AAC, I should ask them!
Got to go now, chin chin.
Oh you mean about NCO pilots? I wasn't an NCO, so didn't have any feelings one way or the other. It seems to be more of a pre-occupation with the AAC, I should ask them!
Got to go now, chin chin.
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Sioux AH1
Several years ago I read a Vietnam-era account of a UH1 pilot, called Mark somebody - his book was called "Chickenhawk", and a really nice read. From that, I gathered that helicopters were commanded from the R/H seat.
I assumed that this meant "all helicopters"... and that therefore helicopters were driven "different to fixed-wing".
So as a layman, I am quite happy to learn that in the British Army at least, the machine is commanded from the L/H seat.
The reason is that I lost a relative in a Sioux crash, and he was in the R/H seat. Since he was the Observer, not the Pilot, I often wondered whether he had been actually doing the flying...
This thread has gone a long way to clearing up that question, so thanks to all involved.
By the way, what is the AAC's policy on the wearing of helmets in helicopters? (or what would it have been say, thirty-five years ago?)
cheers/tb
I assumed that this meant "all helicopters"... and that therefore helicopters were driven "different to fixed-wing".
So as a layman, I am quite happy to learn that in the British Army at least, the machine is commanded from the L/H seat.
The reason is that I lost a relative in a Sioux crash, and he was in the R/H seat. Since he was the Observer, not the Pilot, I often wondered whether he had been actually doing the flying...
This thread has gone a long way to clearing up that question, so thanks to all involved.
By the way, what is the AAC's policy on the wearing of helmets in helicopters? (or what would it have been say, thirty-five years ago?)
cheers/tb
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Right Seat
I can't believe the crap that has been spouted off!!!!
Helicopters 'normally' fly right hand circuits, therefore if flown single pilot the pilot sits in right hand seat (it helps to keep the LS in site!).
In RAF land the Nav/modern WSO name whatever it is sits in left hand seat. In the AAC the Commander of the aircraft sits in the left so he is not flying and therefore has the capacity to do other things.
No one asked why the AAC puts the commander in the left or the NCO in the right blah blah justify justify most AAC pilots are NCOs etc etc
Sorry it took so long to give the thread originator a straight answer but there it is.
Its historic based on the fact helo's fly right hand circuits!
Hip Hip
An Ex Raf SH Nav
Helicopters 'normally' fly right hand circuits, therefore if flown single pilot the pilot sits in right hand seat (it helps to keep the LS in site!).
In RAF land the Nav/modern WSO name whatever it is sits in left hand seat. In the AAC the Commander of the aircraft sits in the left so he is not flying and therefore has the capacity to do other things.
No one asked why the AAC puts the commander in the left or the NCO in the right blah blah justify justify most AAC pilots are NCOs etc etc
Sorry it took so long to give the thread originator a straight answer but there it is.
Its historic based on the fact helo's fly right hand circuits!
Hip Hip
An Ex Raf SH Nav
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GD
Thanks for the leg pull!
The only reason the pilot sits in the RHS in a modern hel is because he can then twiddle knobs, read map, drink coffee, pick nose etc with his left hand while still holding the cyclic with his right and so remaining in control of the aircraft, not many of which have autopilots.
In the Bell 47 Sioux all those years ago we sat on the left and were disadvantaged by having to change hands in order to do the above actions. However, the bench seat layout made it impractical to put a fully functional collective in the centre of the bench to permit the aircraft to be piloted from the RHS, except by a spare crew, instructor, girlfriend or whatever.
As a professional helicopter pilot I never encountered the idea that we could only fly right hand circuits! Very funny.
Thanks for the leg pull!
The only reason the pilot sits in the RHS in a modern hel is because he can then twiddle knobs, read map, drink coffee, pick nose etc with his left hand while still holding the cyclic with his right and so remaining in control of the aircraft, not many of which have autopilots.
In the Bell 47 Sioux all those years ago we sat on the left and were disadvantaged by having to change hands in order to do the above actions. However, the bench seat layout made it impractical to put a fully functional collective in the centre of the bench to permit the aircraft to be piloted from the RHS, except by a spare crew, instructor, girlfriend or whatever.
As a professional helicopter pilot I never encountered the idea that we could only fly right hand circuits! Very funny.